Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[Romans34]

Genesis 1:6 says "a" firmament, not "the one and only".

The "the" in v.8 refers back to 6 indicating which one is being spoken of, that's all.

Genesis 1
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament [ רָקִ֖יעַ ] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament [ הָרָקִיעַ֒ ], and divided the waters which were under the firmament [ לָרָקִ֔יעַ ] from the waters which were above the firmament [ לָרָקִ֑יעַ ]: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven(s) [ לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם ]. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶And God said, Let the waters under the heaven(s) [ הַשָּׁמַ֨יִם֙ ] be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
. . .
14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven(s) [ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם ] to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven(s) [ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם ] to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven(s) [ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם ] to give light upon the earth,
. . .
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of (the) heaven(s) [ רְקִ֥יעַ הַשָּׁמָֽיִם ].
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of (the) heaven(s) [ הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם ] were opened.
Genesis 8:2
The fountains also of the deep and the windows of (the) heaven(s) [ הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם ] were stopped, and the rain from (the) heaven(s) [ מִן־הַשָּׁמָֽיִם ] was restrained;

Verse 8 does refer to the same firmament as verse 6. So does every other reference to the firmament. So based upon your theory about "the firmament" and "the firmament of the heavens", birds evidently fly in "outer space" where the sun, moon, and stars are (see verse 20 above).

the point is that of you believe the firmament is a fishbowl at the end of the universe, and you think that's a Biblical view, then you should also believe the sun, planets, moon and stars are under the clouds - because the Bible says the clouds are the outer limit of the firmament.

I do not believe the firmament is a fishbowl at the end of the universe, nor do I believe the stars are under the clouds. The clouds are not the outer limit of the firmament, the "waters above the firmament" are.

i am under no impression that fishbowlism is a consistent model though, so it is moot if no one has made this claim.

however, some have indeed made it:

Flat Earthers Prove the Sun is Closer Than the Clouds

This doesn't begin to claim that sun, moon, and stars are below the clouds.

 

[posthuman]

If the clouds are the outer surface of the firmament, and thick darkness is beyond, then is a 747 jet flying above the clouds in "outer darkness"? Does a rocket penetrate "outer space" just beyond the clouds? What is the space called between them and the "vacuum of space", etc?

the thick darkness language Christ uses is describing Genesis 1:2 conditions, before the sun moon and stars.

since the terrestrial firmament has the clouds as it's outer surface this darkness is beyond that firmament.

 

[posthuman]

Verse 8 does refer to the same firmament as verse 6.

Because you say so?

Nope.

 

[posthuman]

The clouds are not the outer limit of the firmament, the "waters above the firmament" are.

you are incorrect.
see Psalm 147, Genesis 1&7, and Job 38.

in Genesis 1:2 darkness is beyond the clouds, not crazy imaginary space water.
Clouds are water and the seas are water.
In Genesis 1:6 God places a separation between the two which is an empty space called "sky" - not an impassable fishbowl.

rain comes from clouds, not from black emptiness.

 

[posthuman]

birds evidently fly in "outer space" where the sun, moon, and stars are (see verse 20 above).

Genesis 1:20​

Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.​

​

flying across the face of something does not mean flying inside the face.
it means in front of.
spatially referenced it means if you look up you may see birds flying between you and the the space above the clouds.

 

[Romans34]

Because you say so?

Nope.

I was agreeing with you. Did you change your mind?

 

[Romans34]

Genesis 1
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
So God created an expanse in the midst of the waters...
8 And God called the firmament Heaven(s).
And then he called that expanse Heavens (plural)...

So how many heavens are there between the clouds and the seas?

 

[posthuman]

how many heavens are there between the clouds and the seas?

both infinitely many, and one.

 

[GaryA]

both infinitely many, and one.

Let me guess - every parallel universe has one...

SMH

 

[posthuman]

Let me guess - every parallel universe has one...

SMH

No, it's about the counting the number of subintervals between 0 and 1.
How many are there?

parallel universes don't exist.

 

[tourist]

Let me guess - every parallel universe has one...

SMH

Think that is called a multiverse.

 

[Magenta]

Think that is called a multiverse.

I enjoy science fiction as a genre also .. Did you see the movie with Jet Li called The One?

The One is a 2001 American science fiction action film directed by James Wong, who also writer
with Glen Morgan, both of whom produced with Steve Chasman and Charles Newirth. The film
stars Jet Li, Delroy Lindo, Carla Gugino, and Jason Statham, with action choreography by Corey Yuen.

The film deals with the concept of multiverses and interdimensional travel of a rogue agent who travels to parallel
realities in order for him to kill other versions of himself to become a mythical super-being known as "The One".

Carl Sagan's Contact was one of my fave movies of all time for quite a while, also.

 

[posthuman]

You can prove anything with math, even if it's not true.

That statement is completely false

 

[posthuman]

Where exactly do you believe the 'windows of heaven' are/were?

Where the windows of any house are, on its outer surface.
Same place the clouds are, per scripture - at the upper boundaries of the firmament.

 

[Magenta]

The only failure here is BE theory answering the question how far did the water fall to the earth?

This is a logical failure on your part since the Bible does not say.

Oops from page one? LOL

 

[posthuman]

So - you believe that "standard-normal-average cloud-cover weather" produced enough rain to cover the whole earth to a height that was well above every mountain, etc.?

Don't forget the water that sprung from the ground. There is more than enough in the earth's crust to cover every mountain.

 

[posthuman]

The only failure here is BE theory answering the question how far did the water fall to the earth? Don't you think it is rather obserd to believe that the flood waters in Noah's day fell over 25 trillion miles to the earth? Those who call themselves "Christian" ought to believe the Word of God, don't you think?

the Word of God says the clouds are at the upper surface of the Genesis 1:6 firmament, so i would venture that the rain ((which by definition comes from clouds)) fell more or less the normal distance rain falls.

clouds are not zillion of miles away, btw.

 

[tourist]

I enjoy science fiction as a genre also .. Did you see the movie with Jet Li called The One?

The One is a 2001 American science fiction action film directed by James Wong, who also writer
with Glen Morgan, both of whom produced with Steve Chasman and Charles Newirth. The film
stars Jet Li, Delroy Lindo, Carla Gugino, and Jason Statham, with action choreography by Corey Yuen.

The film deals with the concept of multiverses and interdimensional travel of a rogue agent who travels to parallel
realities in order for him to kill other versions of himself to become a mythical super-being known as "The One".

Carl Sagan's Contact was one of my fave movies of all time for quite a while, also.

I saw that movie Contact. I believe that Jodi Foster was in it. Don't recall seeing The One but it sounds interesting. Carl Sagan was an interesting man but too bad that he was an atheist, or maybe it was agnostic.

 

[tourist]

Don't forget the water that sprung from the ground. There is more than enough in the earth's crust to cover every mountain.

There probably still is enough water remaining to do the same thing.

 

[GaryA]

No, it's about the counting the number of subintervals between 0 and 1.
How many are there?

But - the question was how many heavens and not how many subintervals.

parallel universes don't exist.

Oh, good! Glad to see you say that.

I totally agree...