women as church leaders and teachers

[Angela53510]

I wish people would re-read what I said. Of course, Eve WAS deceived by the serpent. In my post #87, this is what I said:

And Adam, refused to acknowledge his guilt, and blamed Eve, who at least had the decency to confess honestly what she had done.

Eve confessed her sin, Adam did not. If he was supposed to be the leader, he should have stood steadfast and not eaten of the fruit himself. I'm not sure how that would have worked out theologically for the future, but the fact is, Adam was told directly by God, and then he blamed Eve, instead of confessing. That is a double sin - eating and directly disobeying God, and then refusing to confess his sin.

I do see Eve as complicit in the garden. It is OBVIOUS!! But what is not so obvious, is that she willingly confessed to eating the fruit, even though she had only heard the command second hand from Adam (I'm assuming, since it is not directly written in the Bible, because she did appear to know that she was not supposed to eat the fruit). And really, if she started the Fall, Adam certainly sealed the deal with his disobedience and lack of confession.

"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’" Gen. 3:17 and the verses following contain his curse. (The curses of the woman are in verse 16) Notice once again, God is telling Adam that he commanded ADAM (not Eve) in this verse. Technically the woman was not commanded by God, thus the references to her being only deceived, not directly disobedient.

So I maintain my position, and I would ask that people PLEASE read the whole post before they start casting stones. Women are fallen, men are fallen, which in my opinion, made us equal in sin and death.

God did punish the woman, but he also punished the man. Jesus delivered us from sin and death, meaning we are all set free from the curse. This is the New Covenant. (Gal. 3:28)

As for Paul, he was certainly recounting the part of the Fall which was relevant to the church in Corinth. I think elsewhere in the book, he addresses the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14

In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb (they) and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανανέω or manthananeo*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, good hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - two men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

PS. Apologies for having to quote my own post. I did not quote others, because they did not see what I wrote, and seemed to be attacking me for saying something I did not. I apologize for that, if I was mistaken about their reading skills!!!

 

[BananaPie]

• Would you (or do you currently) attend a church that has women as a pastor, even as an assistant pastor?

Nay. Over the span of 47 years, I’ve never attended a service in which a woman be preaching. I don’t even listen to women preaching on the radio.

• If you think it is not appropriate, can a man effectively lead an adult women's ministry?

Yes, of course. Any adult male appointed by God is effectively able to minister to women.

• Should a woman lead a class or teach adults in any capacity?

Yes, actually, the Bible encourages women of virtue to teach other women, especially teach the younger ones. It’s women teaching over men that is not Scriptural.

• How high should a women be allowed to go in church leadership?

As high as is the honor of serving tables and cleaning the Lord’s feet with one’s hair. A women’s place of honor is yielding at the foot of the Cross, or to exist in harmonious submission to her husband (in the case of the married), or in godly submission to the brethren in the case of widows and single women.

• How much decision making ability should a woman have in a church?

None. LOL. I’m serious.

In God’s opinion, the brethren (male saints) are to lead the church, and they are to rule over their households. It’s very simple and practical, frankly, to just agree with God.

 

[danschance]

I wish people would re-read what I said. Of course, Eve WAS deceived by the serpent. In my post #87, this is what I said:



Eve confessed her sin, Adam did not. If he was supposed to be the leader, he should have stood steadfast and not eaten of the fruit himself. I'm not sure how that would have worked out theologically for the future, but the fact is, Adam was told directly by God, and then he blamed Eve, instead of confessing. That is a double sin - eating and directly disobeying God, and then refusing to confess his sin.

I do see Eve as complicit in the garden. It is OBVIOUS!! But what is not so obvious, is that she willingly confessed to eating the fruit, even though she had only heard the command second hand from Adam (I'm assuming, since it is not directly written in the Bible, because she did appear to know that she was not supposed to eat the fruit). And really, if she started the Fall, Adam certainly sealed the deal with his disobedience and lack of confession.

"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’" Gen. 3:17 and the verses following contain his curse. (The curses of the woman are in verse 16) Notice once again, God is telling Adam that he commanded ADAM (not Eve) in this verse. Technically the woman was not commanded by God, thus the references to her being only deceived, not directly disobedient.

So I maintain my position, and I would ask that people PLEASE read the whole post before they start casting stones. Women are fallen, men are fallen, which in my opinion, made us equal in sin and death.

God did punish the woman, but he also punished the man. Jesus delivered us from sin and death, meaning we are all set free from the curse. This is the New Covenant. (Gal. 3:28)

As for Paul, he was certainly recounting the part of the Fall which was relevant to the church in Corinth. I think elsewhere in the book, he addresses the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14

In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb (they) and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανανέω or manthananeo*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, good hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - two men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

PS. Apologies for having to quote my own post. I did not quote others, because they did not see what I wrote, and seemed to be attacking me for saying something I did not. I apologize for that, if I was mistaken about their reading skills!!!

Angela, in post #87wrote: " Actually, Eve did NOT hear the command to not eat of the tree of good and evil through God. In fact, if you read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, there is no record of Eve being told at all!. So if she was deceived, it was because Adam did not properly communicate the message.

Here is the main problem with your arguement. You did not read carefully, chapter 3 of Genesis.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; [SUP]3 [/SUP]but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” Genesis 3:2

So Eve knew exactly what God said, even if God never told her. Personally, I believe God did tell her as they often spoke to God in the garden. So your arguement that she was not told properly is dead wrong.

Now here is the problem with you "proving your case" about our bibles not being translated correctly and that we have to rely on personal bias. I looked at many different versions of the bible, both modern and old and not one of them agrees with you. I have no clue what your Greek credentials are, but I can say they seem to be off. So given the argument that you alone have correctly translated a verse while real bonafide Greek scholars have all in many translations got it wrong, is a very poor argument, and I choose not to take your "bias seriously at all". Maybe you can quote some real scholars to bolster your case instead of offering your opinion on greek translations of the bible.

 

[jinx]

so now according to what you just said, the BIBLE is not universal, that only certain parts are for us, that we can pick and choose. no thanks.[/QUOIts not about picking and choosing, its about reading looking at the word of God in its context. Paul was specifically adressing the church of corinth in that letter. In corinth, women were dominant because they worshiped a godess. So Paul was instructing them on how to keep the church in order. Let's look back to Genesis when God said to Adam, '' Where is your brother, his blood cries out from the earth'' He wasnt talking to me. I havent murdered anyone

1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

so, only the women in corinth should be modest, adorn themselves with godliness, be submissive, not teach a man, not be the boss over them, because adam was formed before eve but that rule only applies to corinth?

that's silly, and it sounds stupid.

I didn't see Paul say " But I suffer not your women to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
nope. pretty sure he said "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

you growing bald yet cause your splitting hairs a lot lately.

 

[Angela53510]

Yes, you are absolutely right about my Greek scholarship that I used in Genesis. It was totally lacking, seeing as the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. (I do not read the LXX because what is the point of translating a translation!?)

As for the Greek in the New Testament, going to one of the standard, recognized exegetical books of the New Testament on Greek, one hardly has to be a Greek scholar to see the obvious. As for the grammar, I speak 2 languages fluently and I can understand and read in 4 others. If you want me to write my posts in French, I could do that for you!

But basically, the grammar is pretty simple, if you know grammar. Present means now. Singular means referring to one person. Active means not passive. Imperative is a command. I am sure you can google this if you are not familiar with the terms. And I also said that has been translated quite well, in terms of it being present, active, imperative, and singular. Paul was addressing a single woman in 1 Tim. 2:11-12. Just re-read what you wrote. He is telling Timothy that SHE (3rd person singular) - a woman in the congregation that she should not be teaching the man. I have no problem with telling an individual woman or a man, for that matter, that they are teaching false doctrine, which I think this is in context of the book, what he is saying. (See 1 Tim. 5:13) In fact, bad doctrine and poor teaching are the purpose of a lot of Paul's epistles.

As far as wondering whether braiding hair is a universal command in post #104, I am really shocked anyone could believe that a woman should not specifically braid her hair in this day and age. In Greek and Roman culture, the women spent hours each day having slaves make up their hair into fancy hairdos, and that is what Paul was addressing. Personally, I do not dye my hair, and other than the occasional trim for split hairs (yes, I am splitting hairs here!!), I also feel it is important for women to dress modestly, because it is so hard for some men to control themselves.

I did not get into the word for authority earlier, but "usurp authority" which is in the KJV is probably a good translation. The word in Greek is authentein, and it is only found ONCE in Greek. It is not the same as other words for authority, and so therefore, Paul used it in a different sense than to mean leadership. The usual word for those in authority over others in Greek is exousia, which refers to delegated authority or leadership. Paul did NOT use the word here, and Paul knew his Greek a lot better than I do!!

Authentein means to "dominate over" or "usurp authority." So basically, in light of Paul's other teaching on mutual submission, there is no doubt that Paul is forbidding a woman who was trying to dominate and take over.

So my question was never answered:

DO YOU THINK WOMAN SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE UNDER THE CURSE OF THE LAW, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BEEN REDEEMED BY JESUS CHRIST?

It really is sad that some people do not read posts, and do not understand grammar. They would rather rot in their ignorance than learn a truth which sets not only women, but men free!

Grammar counts!

But of course, my post was once again not read correctly as replied to by#104. No one was comparing 2nd person singular or plural (Possessive or genitive case of the pronoun-YOUR). I was discussing third person singular versus 3rd person plural. SHE versus THEY. Paul did not use the word "they", nor did he use the "all" women, or even "some" women. (OK, I am repeating myself in the desperate hope that some people will see it and get what I was saying, instead of twisting my words and the Biblical text.) The verb, once again, was μανθανανέω or manthananeo which means, "Let her learn."

The proper reading is A woman, singular, and "suffer" is not a good translation of "ouk eptrepo" anyway. My Greek books all say, "permit" or "allow." So Paul does not permit a particular woman to teach the man. THE is the definite article - it refers to someone in particular, although names are not given. I should mention that Rogers and Rogers mention that women were very uneducated in the 1st century AD, so probably Paul was pointing out that an unlearned woman, who was possibly disrupting things should wait to learn from her husband, or another man. (In the absence of a learned woman!)

But no one seems to want to discuss the main issues.

1. Adam was the only one IN THE TEXT who was commanded by God not to eat of the fruit. Gen. 2:16. There is no direct quote from God telling Eve not to eat the fruit, although she DID know, because she says so. So did God tell Eve? Coulda/shoulda/woulda. He might have, or he could have, but if you say anything more than it was possible, you are doing exogesis - reading into the test, based on your own personal bias and theology.

"Personally, I believe God did tell her as they often spoke to God in the garden. So your arguement that she was not told properly is dead wrong." (Danschance #103)
This is a fine example of an opinion taking over from what the Bible says. Just show me where it says God commanded her and I will back down. It is not going to be found, because it is not in the text. Did God tell Eve not to eat of the fruit? Well, she knew, which is something I have never denied. She was deceived and confessed it. But the Bible does NOT say how she found out, and it DOES say that Adam was commanded by GOD, NOT to eat of the fruit BEFORE Eve was created. And he directly disobeyed that command. I won't say more, because there is no more to say. That is what the Bible says!

2. Adam lied to God. He blamed the woman for the issue, instead of being honest and open and confessing his sins. He disobeyed a direct command from God and he did not accept responsibility for his actions.

If we are going to use Adam and Eve as a cast test for sin, Adam sinned more, because he committed two sins, not one. They were both complicit in the Fall. End of story.

As for women in leadership, it is bad hermeneutics to form a doctrine based on only two Scriptures, especially when there are so many other places that indicate women not only taught (Prisca or Priscilla teaching Apollo with her husband comes to mind - and in Greek, the more important person was mentioned first, which Paul does 2 out of 3 times) And of course, the case in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor. 14:34 are both local to a specific congregation or individual.

Christ came to set us free. Why do you men want to keep women in chains? Yes, I understand you want to stay faithful to the Biblical text, and that is admirable. But sadly, these poor doctrines rising out of a total lack of understanding of grammar, even in English. This indicates to me, that some men are simply hanging onto the bad doctrine they have been taught. I pray God will show them the truth about these passages, although in light of how badly my posts have been read by some, and twisted, I think they may have to wait for God to correct them on judgment day!

This is really getting boring. I show what the passages are actually saying, and having people come back with NO scriptural support, except for the verses I already explained in Greek. If you want to address my posts, perhaps you could study Greek and Hebrew for a year or two, and then we can have a discussion between equals. It is getting so hard to teach some uneducated men. SIGH!!!

PS Argument does not have 2 e's in it! And no, the verses from 1 Timothy 2 does not apply to Corinth. Because Timothy was the pastor of the church in Ephesus!!! (Post #104) No one said Eve was not deceived. She admitted it, I admitted it. But it is not recorded that God directly commanded her, and the way I see it, Paul was REALLY referring to a specific situation in Ephesus, because he only mentioned the Eve's sin, not the Adam's two-fold sin in the garden and used the singular not the plural.

 

[jinx]

didn't read everything you wrote, aint got time to read a book. But I will say one thing, When we start taking scriptures, and beginning saying things like
"This indicates to me, that some men are simply hanging onto the bad doctrine they have been taught."

and "As for women in leadership, it is bad hermeneutics to form a doctrine based on only two Scriptures, especially when there are so many other places that indicate women not only taught"

..... when we begin to sounding like this, simply saying that one scripture is not enough..... (how many is enough to make GOD's word true? BTW?) or that the teachings of great men before us is no long valid, I think there is a real problem. Almost a power struggle with in the person saying such things.

I wont go down that road. One verse is enough to convince me that a woman has a place and it is not the head of a man. I'm HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY to be a submissive woman, cause that is how GOD made me. To be a HELP MATE...... Infact I believe that once a woman becomes submissive then blessings start to flow.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator.

Why should I trust your personal bias?

 

[jinx]

just realized I was post #104.... bwahahahaaa,,,, that's interesting. means nuttin but it is interesting.

 

[kenisyes]

As for the grammar, I speak 2 languages fluently and I can understand and read in 4 others. If you want me to write my posts in French, I could do that for you!

As much as I agree with the work you have done (except wouldn't a "particular woman" be rendered with a construction like "that woman", aute maybe?), you must realize that in the eyes of many people in this thread, you must be wrong, or at least sinful in posting it, as you are a woman attempting to teach men.

 

[jinx]

As for the grammar, I speak 2 languages fluently and I can understand and read in 4 others. If you want me to write my posts in French, I could do that for you!

I can't read french

 

[homwardbound]

It is obvious that you are not understanding what it is said and that you are trying to make an excuse from these verses for the women to have the right like men to teach.
Yes, Adam ate the from the tree, but he was not deceived by the serpent. He did not blame his wife. He only told the truth what happened. Adam is not a liar. Eve gave the tree to her husband. Whereas Eve was deceived by the serpent.
"She also gave to her husband who was with her, and he ate" ( Gen 3 vs 6 )
By the way, Eve knew well that God forbid them to eat from that tree.( Gen 3 vs 2,3)
Apostle Paul used that verse to prevent the woman to teach. Otherwise, he would not permit also the man to teach.
Have you a greater revelation that Paul?

does the verse below say that this is for you women and that man won't bring in destructive heresis as well, come on people
2 Peter 2:1[ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Who will be our teacher only, do we truly need for another to teach us whether man or woman is it not God in this new Covenant that we all are in, our only teacher today
Hebrews 8:11No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
are we all not to listen to the the hidden man of our hearts the Holy Ghost, for do we not all serve the law of sin and death with our flesh whether man or woman, The Spiritual Law of God with our new heart where the Holy Ghost dwells

Romans 7:15- 25
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes you are right, God alone have the right to say who is to minister. But He will not contradict Himself.
Galatians 1 vs 11,12:
But I make known to you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man nor I was taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Watch out for being caught under the letter of the Law and not seeing truth for what truth is. God will use any available person that believes in God period,this role stinking playing is absurd when in the sight of Father in the spirit there is no male, no famale no Jew no greek we are all one in Christ those that are in Christ.
This playing of us as if Man is better than is absurd in my Father's sight. Anyone male or female can bring in destructive heresis or not
We are called to Love one another as Christ loves us.
So the question then is how much does Christ love you, you and you?
Under the Old Covenant we were called to Love our neighbor as self or we could not be loved
So under the new Covenant what is the differance? we love because we are loved, being a response to God in thankfulness or a strict tyrant under the letter of the Law and condemn whomever we choose playing God as what a lot of people did in the Old and are today doing as well in the New being without God even though they may act as if they are for God

 

[homwardbound]

Paul said in 1 timothy 2 vs 14: Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
It seem that you refuting the teaching of apostle Paul.

Did Paulever refute a man not topreach? Did Paulevertake anyone to the side and attempttocorrect themwhen they were not preaching truth?
And why did Paul rebuke the Corinthians in the first place from 1 Cor. 1 on? Waht were they doing wrong? Waht did they not understand? And who were these women in the Church at this time? Where were they from? And what were these men there doiing with these women that Paul was rebuking?
Then maybe then you might understand when the context of this letteris put in its proper place

 

[jinx]

come on!!! splitting hairs again!!!

 

[homwardbound]

Paul walked by the rule (law) of love in Christ.

Reasonably then he had to consider the customs of his day in order not to stumble anyone unnecessarily from listening to the more important message of salvation through Christ Jesus.

Paul had clearly begun what he was speaking in chapter 11 about, as you can see by reading the last dozen or so verses of chapter 10, speaking about his concern not to stumble others.

Thus, even when it came to a woman wearing a head covering, Paul said, 1 Corinthians 11:16 "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

Paul meant that his compelling a woman to wear a head covering was not a rule that was in place in the church but as even nature shows that it is acceptable, and since that is so, then it is a greater sin for a woman not to wear a head covering and so stumble the Jewish babes in Christ who being of the Old Judaism religion believed that for a woman to not wear a head covering was as sinning.

These things are important for us to understand as they communicate the understanding of how we can better apply God's love in our lives.

So then, what did Paul mean when he said, 1 Corinthians 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

He meant that the angels would not be happy with watching us go about stumbling others by using our freedom in ways that violate God's love toward any person among us unnecessarily.

Paul had these words of Jesus in mind: Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Does this same rule of love apply to women being church leaders?

I do know they can be ministers but a minister is not necessarily a leader in the church.

Didn't Jesus say, Matthew 23:8-11 "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Now, that seems to me to be tellng us there are no leaders in the Christ's church but for Christ and God through Christ and the church is to follow God's lead even as Jesus son of man showed us the way.

Hummm, I will have to ponder this more. I still am lacking sleep and I am feeling tiredness nagging at me for now.

Peace and love to you and to all in the name of our Lord.

The Corinthians messed up all over the p;lace and took this amazing Salvation for granted, because the devil put a thought in their minds that since they were forgiven as Paul told them reconciled to God by the death of christ 100% forgiven. The thought they recieved was theycould just do whatever they wanted, they are forgivne so why not. The fellowship was in a mess.
The women from above this Corinthian church were from a brothel with shaven heads they came down and subdued the men. The people of the Corinth Church had no compassion for their neighbors they just did waht they wanted ate up allthe food before the rest of the peoplegot their, got drunk and had sex with others whether the others wanted to or not no LOVE of the others selfishness was rampant and even in chapter 5 the son wanting to have sex with Dads wife and not correcting this, They had misinterpreted the true Gospel of Christ, so now go back and read the Corinthians letter from the begining knowing this truth of why Paulwrote andrebuked them beinig carnal minded and not loving their neighbor as self.
Thensee in 2 Cor. 7 where they got it the message from Paul and thus understood the truth and repented from this wrong doing and gotorder in the Church to edify one another and grow ingrace for they now had a Godly sorrow (Love) in place of the worldly sorrow (Love) thay now grew into maturity that he had rebuked them of being still Carnal

 

[homwardbound]

Nay. Over the span of 47 years, I’ve never attended a service in which a woman be preaching. I don’t even listen to women preaching on the radio.

Yes, of course. Any adult male appointed by God is effectively able to minister to women.

Yes, actually, the Bible encourages women of virtue to teach other women, especially teach the younger ones. It’s women teaching over men that is not Scriptural.

As high as is the honor of serving tables and cleaning the Lord’s feet with one’s hair. A women’s place of honor is yielding at the foot of the Cross, or to exist in harmonious submission to her husband (in the case of the married), or in godly submission to the brethren in the case of widows and single women.

None. LOL. I’m serious.

In God’s opinion, the brethren (male saints) are to lead the church, and they are to rule over their households. It’s very simple and practical, frankly, to just agree with God.

And what if this supossed man of God told you to do something thatyou know is against God? Whom is your Faith in God or man? so if you belief a man tobe in charde and he beats you mentally behind closed doors are you to take it, as well as physically? Has Goid called us to peace or misery?
There are men that claim and get away with their selfish desires by being in control and use this very same controlas the religous leaders did in the day of Christ here on earth
Trust no one but God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sift all through the heart and God himself will teach you. Many today are living under fear of. And it is true the begining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and man is using this to man's gain as a wayto control tosatisfy their own fleshly needs
But Sister when one comes to know God by the cross and sees the Love lavished on us by God from Christ at the cross perfect love then casts out all fear and are free to live a life of true love, not one that is selfish nor one that is a doormat
Their is a lot of abuse in this world and isnot known by others because of fear of and does go n behind closed doors, which needs to be brought to light in order to freed from this selfishness of all mankind
After the verse of Wives love your Husbands it goes on to say Husbands Love your wives, as Christ loves you!!!!!!!!!!!
So anyone treating anyone unfairly does not really know how deep this Love of God actually is and are not saved still being selfish, just as this thread is being

 

[jinx]

I think this all has to do with the fact that women want more than what GOD has given them. Look at Eve and her example, she wanted more and look what that got her..... THANKS EVE!

 

[tribesman]

I think this all has to do with the fact that women want more than what GOD has given them. Look at Eve and her example, she wanted more and look what that got her..... THANKS EVE!

Oh, yes...but that it too simplistic to some ears, expect another hairsplitting treatise to come as response.

 

[jinx]

I hope not, but I know they will. ****cries****

 

[Stephen63]

I think this all has to do with the fact that women want more than what GOD has given them. Look at Eve and her example, she wanted more and look what that got her..... THANKS EVE!

Glad you brought that up.......
Genesis 3:16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire (turning, dependancy) shall be to thy husband, and he (husband, not all mankind) shall rule over thee.

The reason Eve was to submit to Adam in the first place was because of the judgment of her sin. It was not God's original intention for women. What does that say today when we as Christians are no longer under the curse of sin?
When anyone teaches doctrine that hinders the proclamation of the gospel of Christ from a humble heart and a contrite spirit, that teaching is false. Jesus told all of his disciples to do it, not just the male ones.