True Born Again Christians Have Eternal Security

[jinx]

OH, so it is good enough for you to tell others to "rehearse" your post, the scriptures YOU bring to the convo, but not for anyone else to ask the same of you? You've done this to me and to others, and then get your panties in an uproar when we ask the same from you.

They have a word for that condition.....
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[TD="class: td1, colspan: 2"]arrogant (ˈærəɡənt) [/TD]
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[TR="class: tr2"]
[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— adj[/TD]
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[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance,merit, ability, etc; conceited; overbearingly proud: an arrogantteacher ; an arrogant assumption[/TD]
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Do you understand post 226 ? Rehearse the points with me to see if you understand them at least !

Do you understand post 226 ? Rehearse the points with me to see if you understand them at least ! Also Post 216 do the same !

jinx



You explain them, you brought them them here. I am not going to do your job !

Not one of those verses say a Believer can loose their Salvation, so there is nothing for me to explain, thats on you !

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see that you're living under the fallacy of OSAS.
The verses I presented show CLEARLY that you can lose your salvation.

The Greek word used for "knowledge" in Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 is not simple gnosis (knowledge). The word used here is "Epignosis", which means a full, experiential knowledge. These verses are speaking to TRUE believers who lost their way - not people who were simply exposed to Christ.

I see you have fallen under the legalistic crowd who are trying to earn their salvation by your works. and not placing your complete faith in Christ. Neither of those passages. taken in context with the whole book, show a person can lose salvation. Try not to pick and chose certain verses out of context to support your thoery and you would not get them so messed up!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.
Just because nobody can pluck us out of His hand doesn't mean we can't jump out - the the Scriptures are painfully clear about that. It's all about free will.

1. No person can pluck us out of Gods hands, We are a person. thus we would be uncluded in the "no person" clause.
2. God shows us in the ark how he sealed noah and his family in the ark. Do you think noah could have broken that seal, even if he wanted to? Is Noah stronger than God that he could break the seal of God? Scripture tells us God seals us with the HS of promise, who is our gaurantee., Are we stronger than God that we can break that seal?

why are you trying to earn the gift of eternal life? when a gift can not be earned?

 

[loveme1]

I fear not that another could pluck us out but that we be told to depart for our iniquity.

 

[jinx]

no one is trying to "earn" anything. We are just saying that you can LOOSE the gift of salvation based on the scriptures we have provided.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no one is trying to "earn" anything. We are just saying that you can LOOSE the gift of salvation based on the scriptures we have provided.

you do not make sense. if you can lose something, that you must earn it to keep it.

having to work to get it is no different than saying once you get it you have to work to keep it. both are a gospel of works. and both are condemned by God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I fear not that another could pluck us out but that we be told to depart for our iniquity.

yet scripture says those who are in Gods hands will do that (not be perfect) it is those who are not saved which continue in sin, NOT those who are born again and given the spirit of God. The apostle John is very clear on this in his epistles.

 

[jinx]

you do not make sense. if you can lose something, that you must earn it to keep it.

having to work to get it is no different than saying once you get it you have to work to keep it. both are a gospel of works. and both are condemned by God.

I refuse to believe that complete salvation happens here on earth, but would rather believe that he who endures till the end shall be saved. Endures requires work on our part. Can't live like the devil and die a saint, even after a "sinners prayer"

 

[loveme1]

yet scripture says those who are in Gods hands will do that (not be perfect) it is those who are not saved which continue in sin, NOT those who are born again and given the spirit of God. The apostle John is very clear on this in his epistles.

The Scripture seems to suggest those people believed they were in the hand of God and protested by their wonderful works, only to be told to depart because of iniquity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Scripture seems to suggest those people believed they were in the hand of God and protested by their wonderful works, only to be told to depart because of iniquity.

keyword there is "seems"

Not everyone who claims to be a christain is really a born again believer. Many come appearing to be saved, but never were saved, it is they who depart because of iniquity, because they have not been born of God and thus do not have the power to overcome.

 

[loveme1]

keyword there is "seems"

Not everyone who claims to be a christain is really a born again believer. Many come appearing to be saved, but never were saved, it is they who depart because of iniquity, because they have not been born of God and thus do not have the power to overcome.

Indeed because they worked iniquity.

Surely then Faith in the Messiah causes one not to work iniquity?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I refuse to believe that complete salvation happens here on earth, but would rather believe that he who endures till the end shall be saved. Endures requires work on our part. Can't live like the devil and die a saint, even after a "sinners prayer"

1. God says we HAVE eternal life
2. God says we have (past tense) passed from death to live
3. God says we have been sealed by the HS of promise, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection day)
4. God says we have BEEN saved. Are saved, and will always be saved. if we are truely born again.

What you say contradicts what the word says about us who have been saved, justifed, redeemed,. Adopted and all the things God says we have.

as far as enduring to the end. You take this out of context. This is talking about the last days, before Christ returns, during the great tribulation. He who endures (continues to be alive) will be saved (physical salvation, not spiritual salvation) will be saved (not die physically at this "end")

that is not talking about eternal salvation but physical salvation.

 

[jinx]

anyone have an aspirin? maybe a xanax? anyone?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

I refuse to believe that complete salvation happens here on earth, but would rather believe that he who endures till the end shall be saved. Endures requires work on our part. Can't live like the devil and die a saint, even after a "sinners prayer"

Well then you refuse to believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ's ability to keep you and preserve you. Not only that, you refuse to believe in the Holy Ghost's ability to seal you unto the day of redemption. The Bible teaches that a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit in both Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30. And you can believe what you want to believe jinx. But if a person has to perform to stay saved, than that salvation was never a free gift. Plus if a person had to perform to keep that salvation, than that salvation was never grace through faith without works to begin with. Aren't you beginning to see the problem of your belief system in regard to salvation? I am not trying to be mean here but you guys who continue to deny Eternal Security, basically what you guys do is make a liar out of God. You call God a liar when you keep espousing that a Christian can lose his salvation in the church age. We are either sealed like Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 says or we are not. It's one or the other. And I choose to believe the Bible and trust what it says.

In addition, I don't know of any Bible preacher that defends eternal security, who teaches that you can live like the devil and get away with it. I do not know of ONE SINGLE Bible believing preacher and teacher who teaches such a thing. True Bible preachers who preach and teach eternal security never say you can live like the devil and get away with it. What they do teach is that you'll lose your rewards, your crown, your millennial inheritance, your joy, your testimony, your health, your money, and a lot of other things. You can even lose your life if you keep messing with sin. (Romans 6:23, Romans 8:6, 13 & 1 Cor. 3:17)

Just because a Christian cannot lose his salvation, does not mean he can't lose everything else. A Christian has a lot to lose, if he continues sowing to the flesh and feeding the carnal mind, and he keeps messing with sin, than that Christian will have absolutely nothing to show for it in Eternity. Don't you know our works will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ?
Again though, while a Christian can lose a lot of things, one thing he CANNOT and will NEVER lose is his salvation. He is part of Christ's Body (1 Cor. 12:27) and he is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed because they worked iniquity.

Surely then Faith in the Messiah causes one not to work iniquity?

You mean sinless perfection? or living in sin? A huge difference

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Nope, you are wrong. That passage is clearly dealing with people who were never genuinely saved, Think about it, they are referred to as dogs and sows (pigs). The people of God are never compared to dogs or pigs. God's people are sheep.

Rubbish.
What we have here is a linguistics issue and you are simply denying a linguistic fact. Epignosis(ei) refers to a full, experiential knowledge, not a mere intellectual ascent. These people were SAVED and lost it because they fell back into sin.


And, what about the other verses, hmmm?

Romans 11:22 is warning the reader not to FALL sand remain in God's good grace or they will be CUT OFF. How can they be cut off from something they never had?

2 Peter 3:17 warns the reader to be on their guard so aas not to LOSE their SECURE position. Salvation IS secure, provided you remain in God's goodness. NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you are ETERNALLY secure - no in the context of Scripture.

Rev. 3:5 tells the reader what will happen to thiose who remain faithful. Their names will not be BLOTTED OUT from the Book of Life. This is a CLEAR indication that your name CAN be blotted out.

Rev. 22:19 talks about what will happen if somebody tampers with the Book of Revelation. God will TAKE AWAY their share of Heaven.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with?

 

[ChurchAuthority]

1. God says we HAVE eternal life
2. God says we have (past tense) passed from death to live
3. God says we have been sealed by the HS of promise, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection day)
4. God says we have BEEN saved. Are saved, and will always be saved. if we are truely born again.

What you say contradicts what the word says about us who have been saved, justifed, redeemed,. Adopted and all the things God says we have.

as far as enduring to the end. You take this out of context. This is talking about the last days, before Christ returns, during the great tribulation. He who endures (continues to be alive) will be saved (physical salvation, not spiritual salvation) will be saved (not die physically at this "end")

that is not talking about eternal salvation but physical salvation.

Not at all.
We DO have eternal life when we come to faith and are baptized. We HAVE passed from death to life.
However, the CONTEXT of Scripture does NOT say that

The context of Scripture tells us the following about Salvation:
The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God gives us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

The Scriptures speak of our HOPE in Christ. But, as Romans 8:24-25 tells us:

"To hope is the way we are saved. But if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen?So we hope for what we do not see and we will receive it through patient hope."


Eternal Security is a fraud of BIBLICAL proportions that was born at the "Reformation" and was never taught by the historic Christian faith.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

CORRECTION:

Not at all.
We DO have eternal life when we come to faith and are baptized. We HAVE passed from death to life.
However, the CONTEXT of Scripture does NOT say that

My time for editing lapsed when I saw this error in my post. THIS is what I meant to say:

Not at all.
We DO have eternal life when we come to faith and are baptized. We HAVE passed from death to life.
However, the CONTEXT of Scripture does NOT say that this security is eternal. As 2 Peter 3:17 warns us - we can LOSE our secure position.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rubbish.
What we have here is a linguistics issue and you are simply denying a linguistic fact. Epignosis(ei) refers to a full, experiential knowledge, not a mere intellectual ascent. These people were SAVED and lost it because they fell back into sin.

And you call yourself an authority? You should pick a new name..

Rubish. The context of the whole book of hebrews is going back to law.

1. When you go back to law. you state someone in sin has lost their security, and needs a sacrifice to be given to renew their position with God (allow God to forgive them)
2. One can know the truth, and not have any faith at all. In fact james said many say they have faith, but their faith is dead. is it because they do not know truth? no, it is because they merely believe, but have no faith. Can one be saved if their faith is dead?
3. Hebrews tells us, Can one who has heard the truth, "if they fall away" be renewed to repentnance (have the need for another sacrifice to be given according to law).. No, it would be impossible to renew them. And what does this teaching of returning to law do? it puts Christ to open shame., Since HIS DEATH is the only one that can cause redemption.; Saying we have to go back to animal sacrifice puts him to open shame.
4. Look at whole passage.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

key word, for, this is a continuation of the passage and context. The author is explaining further what he means.

1. earth drinks the rain (represents those children of God) in which God pours rain (blessing) because of good works
2. But if it bears thorns and briors (not good works) it brings us to our second key word or phrase "NEAR TO BEING CURSED" (recieves no reward) who's end (rewards) is to be burned

please note/ near to being cursed, and being cursed is far from the same. Only those NOT born in Christ are cursed.

3. See also 1 cor 12. Gold silver precious stone,. Wood hey straw. Speaking of our reward judgment., (bema seat) even those who's rewards are burned are still saved, even though they escaped the fire.

Both of these passages prove he is not talking about losing salvation. So why go back to law and try to earn it??

And, what about the other verses, hmmm?

Romans 11:22 is warning the reader not to FALL sand remain in God's good grace or they will be CUT OFF. How can they be cut off from something they never had?

Context is the NATION of ISRAEL.. vs GENTILES. not induvidual people. the nation of people was cut off. and gentiles grafted in. If the nation of isreal can be cut off as a nation. we gentiles should not boast. as god can cut us off in unbeliefe also.

Don;t you ever look at context?

2 Peter 3:17

warns the reader to be on their guard so aas not to LOSE their SECURE position. Salvation IS secure, provided you remain in God's goodness. NOWHERE does the Bible teach that you are ETERNALLY secure - no in the context of Scripture.

wow, your joking right?

Context. Suffering.

it is better to suffer for doing good. then to suffer the consequences which ALL people will suffer for doing evil. Context is suffering, NOT salvation..

Again, you call yourself an authority?..

Rev. 3:5

tells the reader what will happen to thiose who remain faithful. Their names will not be BLOTTED OUT from the Book of Life. This is a CLEAR indication that your name CAN be blotted out.

Everyones name is in the book of life. They are blotted out when they die having rejected the gift of God.. nice try though.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not at all.
We DO have eternal life when we come to faith and are baptized. We HAVE passed from death to life.
However, the CONTEXT of Scripture does NOT say that

The context of Scripture tells us the following about Salvation:
The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God gives us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

The Scriptures speak of our HOPE in Christ. But, as Romans 8:24-25 tells us:

"To hope is the way we are saved. But if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen?So we hope for what we do not see and we will receive it through patient hope."


Eternal Security is a fraud of BIBLICAL proportions that was born at the "Reformation" and was never taught by the historic Christian faith.

you skipped a whole bunch of passages. Namely eph chapter 1.

I see your point, but you have it mixed up.

1. I have been justified.
2. I have been given eternal life (if eternal is not eternal, God lied)
3. I have been POSITIONALLY sanctified)
4. I am being conditionally sanctified (as I grow in Christ)
5. On day, my positional and conditional sanctification will be equal. God calls this glorified.

Eternal security was taught by God, By Christ and ALL the apostles. The roman church went all isreal on the gospel and made the same mistake they made by adding works to the gospel of Christ.

I take what paul said, if it is grace it is not works, otherwise grace stops being grace. if it is works (earned) it is not of grace, otherwise work is no longer work.

Are we to be so foolish we think we are saved by faitn, then must perfect that salvation by works? (again spoken of by paul)

if you want to try to earn your salvation. keep trying, you will fail miserably.