Daniel 9:27 blunder...

zone · May 13, 2013

agree.

all of Daniel is about and up to 70AD (and beyond as the New Covenant Church - though "far off" like all the prophets).
it tells the same things about his people and exactly what was going to happen (and did), just in different ways, including more or less information - just like Revelation does.

ex from before:

Daniel 11
VERSES
36-39 - Herod
40-43 - Augustus
44-45 - Herod.....

HEROD THE KING

Daniel 11:37
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:38
But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

.....

so if Daniel does this in chapter 11:

36-39 - Herod
40-43 - Augustus
44-45 - Herod.....

it certainly can (and does) do it in chapter 9:

Jesus
Titus
Jesus

the whole book does it.

desolation(s) are decreed.
Antiochus and everybody is in there.
right up to the last Herod.
AFTER it was all over.

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Anybody ever consider the futuristic Muslims destroying Israel with their temple? Believe it or not, that temple has been a defilement to God ever since it was put up for 1400 years. Why rebuild a new one when the one we already got is doing a fine job.
The Arabic Islamic Inscriptions On The Dome Of The Rock In Jerusalem, 72 AH / 692 CE Notice line 10 of the inscriptions. Tell me this isn't a defilement to God. It is to me. Allah (Islamic god) is Satan according to the Bible!

zone · May 13, 2013

Bistabuster said:

what has that to do with Jesus or Christians?

John 4 c. 27AD
16Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

Angela53510 said:

Rejecting a scholar. Let's see now. I have a friend who has studied the Word for a very long time. He is finishing up on seminary school and about ready to start his own church. These two passages are very well known to all. Matt 24:36 and Mark:13:32. No one except God himself and only Him knows when the Son will return. Not us, not the angels and not the Son of God (Jesus) None of these persons know when that big day will be here.

However, as clear as these two Scriptures are, my friend insists that Jesus DOES INDEED know the EXACT DAY of His return. A person in seminary school, learning the Bible for well over 10 years and can't get a simple Bible verse correct and you say we need to believe in them? Thus 1 John 4:1 comes into play. I tested him on this and he couldn't explain to me how that is. The Bible says He don't know, yet he does! Go figure that one out!

So, believing in a scholar doesn't make it right.

SarahM777 · May 13, 2013

Bistabuster said:

Anybody ever consider the futuristic Muslims destroying Israel with their temple? Believe it or not, that temple has been a defilement to God ever since it was put up for 1400 years. Why rebuild a new one when the one we already got is doing a fine job.
The Arabic Islamic Inscriptions On The Dome Of The Rock In Jerusalem, 72 AH / 692 CE Notice line 10 of the inscriptions. Tell me this isn't a defilement to God. It is to me. Allah (Islamic god) is Satan according to the Bible!

What if after Jesus died the temple and sacrifices became the abomination due to unbelief?

eternally-gratefull · May 13, 2013

1still_waters said:

You forgot matt where jesus himself calls it the abomination which makes desolate. refering to daniels prophesy. there are three I believe spoken of in daniel. 2 of them were done by the greece empire when the greecian kind defiled the inner sanctum by sacrificing a pig (unclean thing) in the inner sanctum.

Second. Jesus said when you see it in the holy place. this would be the inner sanctum. this would not be a destruction. But an actually abomination inside the holy place. And this fits what the jews would have considered an abomination.

Your NT verses do not fit the wording.

eternally-gratefull · May 13, 2013

1still_waters said:

still does not fit. An abomination which makes desolate is an unclean thing. Are you trying to say jesus is the unclean thing? I do not have access to my greek right now. But I can bring it up when I get home.

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

zone said:

what has that to do with Jesus or Christians?

John 4 c. 27AD
16Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Everything. But it isn't too hard to understand.

eternally-gratefull · May 13, 2013

GRA said:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ~ Daniel 9:24-27

The last part of verse 26 - from the colon until the end of the verse - is what I like to call an 'aside' (because, in terms of thought process, the focus of what is being said shifts temporarily away from the "main/current focus" onto something else). Because the focus shifts away from the "main/current focus" - the new, temporary, focus is not necessarily constrained by the "main/current focus" at the point that the focus shifted. What this means for this passage is that, there is no necessity for the "destruction" that it is talking about to have anything [directly] to do with the 70 weeks (the "main/current focus" at the point of the 'aside') - especially where timing is concerned. The phrase "that shall come" simply points to "some time later" - and does not mandate that the target thought/focus "line up" with the 70 weeks in any particular way. In terms of thought process, it is a complete jump away from the 70 weeks that is being "discussed" before the point of the 'aside'.

At the beginning of verse 27, the focus returns to what it was before the 'aside'.

The word 'he' [x3] in verse 27 refers back to the word 'Messiah' in verse 26.

So - with the exception of the partial verse 'aside' discussed above - everything in these verses is talking about Christ.

The alignment of the 70 weeks is flawless -- if you know what you are aligning it with...

The "countdown" for the 69 weeks indicated in verse 25 starts with the point in time that the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem.

The "countdown" for the 62 weeks indicated in verse 26 starts with the end of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

How long was the rebuilding of Jerusalem?

[ Further comments will have to wait... ]

( The crucifixion occurred in the middle of the 70th week. )

No. History shows the crucifiction occured at the very begining of the 70th week. or at the end of the 69th week.

as I showed before. there is a reason gabriel said the messiah would be cut off after the 69th week. and not during the 70th week. I do not think he did it just to confuse people. I think he did it because he meant to show it was not a part of the 70 weeks.

why would the he refer to messiah? this makes no sense. all we are told is messiah would be introduced (completing the 62th week) then be cut off after the 62 week.

then it speaks of the people who will destroy jerusalem and the temple. Calling them the people of the prince who is to come (the prince is not the main subject because he is not the one who destroyed jerusalem.)

thus the he should refer to the prince who is to come, not the messiah.

Rodger · May 13, 2013

NOPE. That is the "Preterist" position and of all interpretations it is the least valid of them all.

Rodger · May 13, 2013

Well, we can compare a prophecy with other prophecies. By comparing similar prophecies the meanings become more clear. For example, by comparing Daniel 9:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 and Matthew 24:15, we know that the “Abomination of Desolation” is when the Anti-Christ will break a peace promise to the Jews in the middle of the 7-year Tribulation and will demand to be worshipped. Now since that has not happened historically, we know that it is still in the future.

God said Israel would return to the land (Isaiah 11:11,12). Israel had to be in the Promised Land for prophecy concerning them to take place. In 1948 Israel became a recognized state. In 1967, Israel took over the city of Jerusalem. The continued conflict in the Middle East seems to be the mere beginning of the key role that the Bible says Israel will have during the coming Tribulation and Millennium. Before the 20th century, postmillennialists and amillennialists could scoff at the idea of a literal Israel receiving its Old Testament promises. Today those promises look more and more realistic.

Rodger · May 13, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

ok so i thought i would look up the 'abomination of desolation' passages in the king james version...

since the king james version predates the whole dispensationalist controversy...it would be free from that bias...and it would probably give the most 'natural' translation of the hebrew text...

here are the three relevant verses from daniel...

daniel 9:27..."And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

daniel 11:31..."And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

daniel 12:11..."And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

comparing the three passages...it seems that daniel 9:27 is not talking about the same thing as daniel 11:31 and daniel 12:11...

Daniel 11:31 is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes.
Daniel 12:11 is talking about the A/C.
"When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place".
That is the key to understanding that the Great Tribulation has begun.

zone · May 13, 2013

Bistabuster said:

please explain what the DOR or the Israeli State or Jerusalem which now is has to do with Christians.
t.y.

RachelBibleStudent · May 13, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

my previous post in this thread relates to that...

'abomination that causes desolation' does not appear to be the most natural translation of the hebrew text in daniel 9:27...the more natural translation would be something like 'for the overspreading of abominations he will make it desolate'

so when jesus mentions the 'abomination that causes desolation' he is probably referring only to daniel 11:31 and daniel 12:11...not daniel 9:27 which is evidently about something else entirely...

RachelBibleStudent · May 13, 2013

maybe this is relevant...

ezekiel 33:29..."Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I make the land a desolation and a waste because of all their abominations which they have committed."

it looks like some specific 'abominations' are described a few verses earlier...

ezekiel 33:25-26..."Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "You eat meat with the blood in it, lift up your eyes to your idols as you shed blood. Should you then possess the land? You rely on your sword, you commit abominations and each of you defiles his neighbor’s wife. Should you then possess the land?"'"

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

zone said:

agree.

all of Daniel is about and up to 70AD (and beyond as the New Covenant Church - though "far off" like all the prophets).
it tells the same things about his people and exactly what was going to happen (and did), just in different ways, including more or less information - just like Revelation does.

ex from before:

Daniel 11
VERSES
36-39 - Herod
40-43 - Augustus
44-45 - Herod.....

HEROD THE KING

Daniel 11:37
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Daniel 11:38
But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

.....

so if Daniel does this in chapter 11:

36-39 - Herod
40-43 - Augustus
44-45 - Herod.....

it certainly can (and does) do it in chapter 9:

Jesus
Titus
Jesus

the whole book does it.

desolation(s) are decreed.
Antiochus and everybody is in there.
right up to the last Herod.
AFTER it was all over.

70 AD is not an abomination. If it is, then the other two destruction MUST be abominations too! An abomination is considered "in place of" not destruction of.

zone · May 13, 2013

Rodger said:

so we just jump from Antiochus Epiphanes c.163 BC to 2020 AD and a Gentile prince (or some ridiculous notion)?

why are we ignoring all the kingdoms laid out in minute detail and all the events described between Antiochus and John the baptist and Jesus on to 70AD?

FORGET the 70 WEEKS! throw them into the GAP!

God never meant it, he should have said a super long time and not been so cagey about it all by making it time-specific to Israel, then slipping a monster gap in there and making it about some Gentile Antichrist!

YA RIGHT.

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

Rodger said:

Really? you must be kidding. The antichrist has been well defined in the only four passages that contain that word. If you listen to what it says, an antichrist is simply a person or persons that don't believe in Jesus. That's all. 1 John 4 1-3 goes on to say that the antichrist is here already (in John's time. Not ours) and it is also identified as a rumor. In other words, John is saying that there will be no super being antichrist ever that will be on the rise. Suppose you don't believe in the Son of God. Who are you then? You are an antichrist. EVERYBODY who believes the same way you do, such as myself, will be antichrists. 2 John 1:7 spells it out the clearest.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

There are only four verses and five times the word antichrist is said in the Bible.
1 John 2:18
1 John 2:22
1 John 4:3
2 John 1:7

That's it. If you want to know what the antichrist is, these are the only passages describing it.

Bistabuster · May 13, 2013

Rodger said:

Show me how you got the antichrist to be the abomination of desolation in reference to Dan 12:11.

zone · May 13, 2013

Bistabuster said:

what are ya talkin' about.
i don't do the DOR , okay?

you can make it the AOD if you want to.

Daniel is FULL of accounts of both the jews and the gentiles committing abominations and making the city the land and the temple defiled.

it's fulfilled. done. over.

Herod was the king who did as he willed and didn't honor the God of his fathers, nor any other gods.

Titus demolished the city.

OVER.

if those 70 weeks aren't fulfilled, not one of us is a Christian and we are to be MOST PITIED ABOVE ALL PEOPLE.

Daniel 9:27 blunder...

zone

Senior Member

Bistabuster

Guest

zone

Senior Member

Bistabuster

Guest

SarahM777

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Bistabuster

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Rodger

Guest

Rodger

Guest

Rodger

Guest

zone

Senior Member

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

Bistabuster

Guest

zone

Senior Member

Bistabuster

Guest

Bistabuster

Guest

zone

Senior Member