Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[homwardbound]

home is entitled to wax eloquently about God's Plan, as are you....if that's your approach to answering straight-forward questions about what THE BIBLE actually says.

5th time:

does Romans 6 describe baptism by fire?
in any way shape or form.

the answer is no....so leave it at that (unless you see a coded secret reference to it...if so - where is it)?

I have answered this to you Zone it does say which Babtism let alone with fire or not! NOR DOES IT SAY THAT THIS IS WATER BABTISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now again let us look at this in context. Was this particular Babtism talked about in Romans before the Pentecost? or after?
Who Babtized with water? And who Babtizes with the Holy Ghost? What did John say?
So today Sister we are under the Babtism of the Holy Ghost, being in context
Believe what you wish

 

[homwardbound]

2 Cor 5:21 "For He hath made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

Actually that says, "For God has made his Son who knew no sin to become sin for us that we might be made that righteousness of God that is in the Son."

Those that fail to teach that are bringing the curse to themselves by confusing God's plan to peoples' minds.

anything that teaches man to walk by his own flesh and or others is being decieved and kept from walking in the Spirit of God, that God freely gave all of us that do beleive, the battle is flesh and Spirit of God
[h=3]Galatians 5:1-26[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Christian Liberty[/h]5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
[h=3]Love Fulfills the Law[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]A little leaven leavens the whole lump. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
[h=3]Walking in the Spirit[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[homwardbound]

My response to your questions: Answer to your first question: 1] This would be a real stump of a question if it were not for Philip baptizing the Eunuch and then the majority of the citizens in Samaria. Acts 8:14-17 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

No, it would not make void. Please note that Philip is a deacon and he baptized with water. Most importantly, Peter did not send Philip to witness to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the "an angel of the Lord" did. Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”

Was the angel of the Lord telling Philip to do something because the angel was ashamed of what other people might say?

Then the Lord actually confirmed that it was He that sent the angel to Philip by translating him to another location.

Acts 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39] When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40] Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

Was the Lord embarrassed at what others might say or did He approve what the angel told Philip to do, Did the Lord approve Philip baptizing the Ethiopian with "water" and when the Spirit of the Lord took Philip away was this confirmation of approval on the Lord's behalf or was the Lord embarrassed?

[I would like to pose a few questions; with brotherly love.

So it will help me if you answer the questions and then give me scripture that support your statements. Again, it will help me to better communicate and understand your point of view. Thanks Friend]

The lesson the Bible is teaching all believers concerning being "Born Again" is that there are two necessary acts it does not matter what order they occur but they will occur. One is Baptism by Water the other is Receiving the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. Without the two occurrences, the New Birth did not happen. Proof positive is with Simon the Simon the sorcerer in Acts:

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 18] And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19] Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20] But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21] Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

There is a lager audience to this CC Thread than us. I am not challenging your personal experiences with the Lord. My comments are restricted to the Word and the theology that is asserted concerning being Born Again and what necessitates the event happening.

Back to the questions:

Paul baptized John's disciples in water, why?

Is the Lord's commandment that established the "Lord's Supper" a metaphoric work to be performed in Spirit or is it a work that is to be performed in three dimensional reality?

Was the "Lord's Supper" a "memorial" commandment given before or after the cross? >Matthew 26:17-30<

Before the Lord's crucifixion and immediately after the Passover supper was eaten, the Lord washed the Apostle's feet in "water". Then he commanded that this ritual be continued among sisters and brothers. John's disciples, before the cross, didn't wash feet, at least not according to Biblical accounts, it only happened among the Twelve; John 13-17

Today, is the Church only supposed to use the "Water of the Word" to wash the feet of the Saints or is the ritual deed of Saints washing of feet done away with according to what you believe? >Ephesians 5:26<

These questions are important to the subject of John's baptisms. "The Lord's Supper and Washing of Feet" are restricted to the subject at hand; no derailing attempts please. Thanks.

Romans 6:1-11
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

8] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." <Grammatical underlining, emboldened, and text italicizing added. No text was changed or included beyond the actual scriptures posted>

I and other CC Saints have posted a plethora of baptismal scriptures from the book of Acts to Romans. The facts of the Word has been planted. The Jesus will water and give increase. I will pray that you have a Damascus Road Experience. Moreover, I believe that enough is offered to give the curious enough scriptural comparisons to continue in prayer for Truth.

I remain open for dialogue.

you assume the Babtism in Romans 6 is water and that is not stated as such, now those beleivers that were only babtized in water needed to be babtized in the Spirit of God. Now those that recieved the sp;irit of God without water did not need to be water babtized, even though it was and is a good conscious for God.
But Brother they already recieved the Spirit of God salvation, so you are going to amke it Law that one is not saved without water Babtism as a lot of Churches have and do today.
We are not under Law but under grace, so please do not get water Babtized as a law because as the Galatians toolk on Circumscion what did Paul say about this, and that was a ceremonialLaw as what you might be sayiing about water Babtism. Water Babtism is between God and you, why do we need others to approve of us as they do when we do this
I thought by scripture we are by beleif already approved in the beloved

Ephesians 1:6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Now read the whole chapter and tell me where any water Babtism is at here
[h=3]Ephesians 1:1-23[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Greeting[/h]1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[h=3]Redemption in Christ[/h][SUP]3[/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5[/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, [SUP]9 [/SUP]having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, [SUP]10 [/SUP]that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
[h=3]Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, [SUP]16 [/SUP]do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, [SUP]18 [/SUP]the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power [SUP]20 [/SUP]which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, [SUP]21 [/SUP]far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, [SUP]23 [/SUP]which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[homwardbound]

Sorry but your wrong, and I believe that my previous post with dozens of scriptures PROVES your wrong.
Have a great day.
~~Jinx

Okay Jinx what Babtism is essential since there is only one water or Holy Ghost? And I am sure you are going to say both
And this is okay as you grow in God's grace sister.
So tell me why John said he must decrease and why Christ must increase?
And why John said and that his Babtism was of water and Christ's will be of the Holy Ghost?
And why Acts 1:5 states waht it states about water Babtism being over and the true Babtism is coming?
John 3:30He must increase, but I must decrease.
Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 1:5for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now

There is clearly a water Babtism before the cross and ther eis clearly the Babtism of the Holy Ghost with fire after the cross, are we on both sides before abd after the cross riding the fence between Law and Grace?

 

[homwardbound]

kardiaoangelous, what is it exactly you are after?
is Peter talking about baptism by fire in a good way there?

is there a mystical interpretation of that passage?
just speak plainly.

to be honest with you, i don't believe as you have indicated, that you have some great understanding of the hidden meaning of everything in scripture and are dolling it out in bite sized pieces.

if i'm wrong, and there's a big gnostic secret none of us see - just write it out in one post.

i posted THE ONLY PASSAGE which says "baptize you with fire".

John was addressing the Pharisees (and there were CLEARLY other Israelites standing around...read the passage again).

John proceeded to say wheat separated from chaff; chaff burned up; with fire.
this was not an empowerment; not something that WOULD BURN AWAY THEIR SINS....it was coming Judgment...by real literal FIRE.

John the Babtist said it and I beleive John who came to announce the Messiah

1. Matthew 3:11
   I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
   Matthew 3:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Luke 3:16John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire

 

[homwardbound]

does romans 6 in any way dicuss baptism by fire.
did john who used the phrase indicate it was a good thing.

for John to say it as he did. one would have to ask what could this fire mean? Fire burns away hay, wood and stubble yes? What is flesh in the sight of God? is flesh pleasing in the sight of God? even if it appears to do any good at all? What did Jesus do at the cross? Did Christ condem all flesh all sinful flesh to the cross? So then what is the purpose of the fire,except to burn out my carnal mindedness, and thus renew my mind in seeing things all from God the Father's vantage point
[h=3]Romans 8:3[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[homwardbound]

do you believe ultimately all people will be saved - universal salvation.

that is God's hope that all willchange there mind fromunbeleif to belief and is why we have been going on so long, and this my Sister is "LOVE",and truly I do not think all will come to a saving grace, yet not anyone will ever have an excuse, for all will know and all will bow, those who chose not to excercise Faith in the living Savior shall perish, and they will and do know who they are consciously whether they serve here in a church or not
Going to church does not make anyone a beliver and being just water Babtized in Christ anymore than going to a hen house make one a hen
The demons are in fear and act as if they are in, when it is clear not allclaiming the name shall enter in and it is not my descicion it is God's, I am to hold me accountable and share with whathas been learned to me by God through Scripture as I have put forth. We all see it or we do not it is okay either way for as God said he gave each of us free will and since God did this I shall not invade anyone elses free will and only post to the edification of others
Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

Don't take it personally zone as this is something I think I see many of us, including myself, only now really beginning to wake up to.

We are just saying please join us and let us join you.

I would not have recognized the need in myself if I had not seen first that was wrong of others. I am yet working on that, also.

God knows I have yet to find the many ways I violate that principle of oneness in the body of Christ.

I am with you on this one thank you for renminding me who we are in Christ, born of the Spirit not the fleshly attitude that I once was and could be agian,so I die agiantoday to the flesh and am alive to the Spirit of Christ, thanks

 

[homwardbound]

uh....i love my neighbours.

if one says take a hike, i respect their wishes.
as for oneness with everyone who names some christ...really?

Zone is not there only one CHRIST? Are you saying you and your cohorts are the only ones that know who Christ is? As many denominations do as well? Just wondering how any one of us if we think this way how we can be so arrogant!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!

 

[zone]

Zone is not there only one CHRIST? Are you saying you and your cohorts are the only ones that know who Christ is? As many denominations do as well? Just wondering how any one of us if we think this way how we can be so arrogant!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!

home....if someone comes to you and says Jesus Christ was a phantom, not a flesh man, would you be in oneness with him?

what if he said Jesus and Satan were brothers?

how about if he said Jesus was one of many gods?

how about if he said Judas swapped places with Jesus on the Cross at the last minute?

Jesus never rose from the grave.

Jesus lives on the planet GOLEB

ALL ONENESS FOR YA?

 

[homwardbound]

my congregation is to almost all others (in their own words) - cold; dead; formalist; legalist; pharisaical..blah blah.

nothing is farther from the truth.

the first century shepherds guarded the flocks from wolves and false doctrine - as well as feeding them good food.

people are free to hold to any doctrine they want, and assemble or not assemble.
teach two baptisms if they wish; teach christ isnt king now; jews saved by merciful blinding...tongues is babbling.
you name it.

my congregation says no to all that. no.
doesnt mean we dont love people...and that mantra is plum wore out.
okay

I had a dream and inthis dream I was in Heaven and was a tour guide showing others this amazing place. Now as I was walking showing others we came across a sign that said Quiet and there was a large wall beside us and we could hear yelling, praises, singing and so forth going on.
The people asked me quietly what is this? And I responded with oh that is the ________________________ You fill in the denomination or non-denomination, they are so and so they think they are the only ones here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope you get it Sister hope you get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[zone]

I had a dream and inthis dream I was in Heaven and was a tour guide showing others this amazing place. Now as I was walking showing others we came across a sign that said Quiet and there was a large wall beside us and we could hear yelling, praises, singing and so forth going on.
The people asked me quietly what is this? And I responded with oh that is the ________________________ You fill in the denomination or non-denomination, they are so and so they think they are the only ones here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope you get it Sister hope you get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your dream about what goes on in heaven means little home.

back up modern prophets and tongues and baptism by fire being a cool thing BY SCRIPTURE.

or not.

 

[homwardbound]

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.




teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Short Definition: I complete, accomplish, make perfect
Definition: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

Cognate: 5048 teleióō – to consummate, reaching the end-stage, i.e. working through the entire process (stages) to reach the final phase (conclusion). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

...


3. to purify (ἀπό τῶν ἀκαθαρσιῶν is added in Leviticus 16:19; 2 Samuel 11:4); and

a. to cleanse externally (πρός τήν τῆς σαρκός καθαρότητα), to purify levitically: Hebrews 9:13; 1 Timothy 4:5.

b. to purify by expiation, free from the guilt of sin: 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:10, 14, 29; Hebrews 13:12; Hebrews 2:11 (equivalent to כִּפֶר, Exodus 29:33, 36); cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 340ff (English translation 2:68f).

c. to purify internally by reformation of soul: John 17:17, 19 (through knowledge of the truth, cf. John 8:32); 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 1 Corinthians 1:2 (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in the fellowship of Christ, the Holy One); Romans 15:16 (ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ imbued with the Holy Spirit, the divine source of holiness); Jude 1:1 (L T Tr WH ἠγαπημένοις (which see)); Revelation 22:11. In general, Christians are called ἡγιασμένοι (cf. Deuteronomy 33:3), as those who, freed from the impurity of wickedness, have been brought near to God by their faith and sanctity, Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18. In 1 Corinthians 7:14 ἁγιάζεσθαι is used in a peculiar sense of those who, although not Christians themselves, are yet, by marriage with a Christian, withdrawn from the contamination of heathen impiety and brought under the saving influence of the Holy Spirit displaying itself among Christians; cf. Neander at the passage.

So then I like waht is posted now in response to this amazing salvation does one go on sining or is God actually growing each of us up into him. are we to remain slaves to sin, not caring using it for an occasion to the flesh? Just wondering what should the response be?
Because I know that if we
Hebrews 2:3how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him

And just continue to harm one another and not care whether we do or not? God would like to know from each of us personally I think

 

[Moetown]

If salvation was dependant upon water baptism would God not have been more clear in the NT as to the need? Would not have insured that there was atleast one verse that said "If you are not baptised you are not saved."? Somewhere, in bold print maybe, if it is SOOOO "essential"? (of course I know they did not have bold print, but you get the point)
To say that a physical act of water submersion is mandatory is to say that Jesus' act in the crucifiction was not sufficient enough in itself.
If it were a mandatory physical action required for salvation why is it so easily debatable in this forum? Did not Christ bring a simplicity into the New Covenant? Did he not mock and condem the complexity that Pharisees brought to Judiasm? Why would God allow something to be both essential and confusing? Why would God bring a complex theology to a Greek world that knew so little of Him?
Water baptism is a beutiful ceremony and tradition that God gave us, it is not something we give God as an act toward salvation. It is something we "get" to do, an opportunity, a blessing--not an act we do to compensate for the insufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.



alternative #1

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


alternative #2

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, I will baptize them with the Holy Spirit, 20 and you teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


alternative #3

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, lay hands on them and baptize them with the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


any other alternatives?

Where does any of these verses state that it is water, and I know it does not state Holy Ghost Babtism either with fire'
But again john after water Babtizing Christ said the he (water Babtism) must decreaseand Christ's (Holy Ghost) Babtism must increase, pretty simple after the cross we are babtized in the Spirit the Holy Ghost as Chirst even said was coming in John 16, he never said and tell others to be Babtized in water first or afterwards
It only stand s to logic that Christ was and is tallking about the Holy Ghost Babtism not water. Scripture is clear if anyoe will look at it in whole in context ot the events that took place.

 

[homwardbound]

home....if someone comes to you and says Jesus Christ was a phantom, not a flesh man, would you be in oneness with him?

what if he said Jesus and Satan were brothers?

how about if he said Jesus was one of many gods?

how about if he said Judas swapped places with Jesus on the Cross at the last minute?

Jesus never rose from the grave.

Jesus lives on the planet GOLEB

ALL ONENESS FOR YA?

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a way ot answer. Let me ask another way is your place of fellowship right and all others wrong?are you perfect and you are allowed to punish any and all you choose to at your beckon
This is unfortuantely how you come across as you know it all and where you go to church, just like many others do this too
I also notice how you do not answer all my posts, is it becasue you can't refute what is said shown to be in scripture, you seem to like to argue and make others mad, and I really do hope my perception of this is wrong, but it keeps posting back as Iam not wrong about this and I do pray God show you a more excellent way, really I am in deep concern
I do love you no differant that a Catholkic, A Babtist, A Jehovah Witness, and any other denomination that you might just spew out od your mouth and use Scripture to back this up, I hope not
Please come to the LOVE of God that is
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:4-13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; [SUP]6 [/SUP]does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[homwardbound]

your dream about what goes on in heaven means little home.

back up modern prophets and tongues and baptism by fire being a cool thing BY SCRIPTURE.

or not.

I feel sorrowfulness for you and love you regardless

 

[homwardbound]

If salvation was dependant upon water baptism would God not have been more clear in the NT as to the need? Would not have insured that there was atleast one verse that said "If you are not baptised you are not saved."? Somewhere, in bold print maybe, if it is SOOOO "essential"? (of course I know they did not have bold print, but you get the point)
To say that a physical act of water submersion is mandatory is to say that Jesus' act in the crucifiction was not sufficient enough in itself.
If it were a mandatory physical action required for salvation why is it so easily debatable in this forum? Did not Christ bring a simplicity into the New Covenant? Did he not mock and condem the complexity that Pharisees brought to Judiasm? Why would God allow something to be both essential and confusing? Why would God bring a complex theology to a Greek world that knew so little of Him?
Water baptism is a beutiful ceremony and tradition that God gave us, it is not something we give God as an act toward salvation. It is something we "get" to do, an opportunity, a blessing--not an act we do to compensate for the insufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

well put in discernment, it happens because Fleshdoe not want to die it has to have somethig to do with salvation to tkae away the power of the cross
1 Corinthians 1:18[ Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[SeekingJC]

Very TRUE SarahM, but what is the use I CLAIM to be Christian, and God's Spirit does NOT CONFESS WITH me? I know plenty people right here on CC that "confess" that they are Christian, but God's Spirit DOES NOT CONFESS with their spirit that they are. So just "caliming" to be Christian does not make you one...

I will not EVER say I am a Child of God, Or Born of God, I think the Spirit of God will do that part. I need not CLAIM to be Christian to be right, I only have to show in Scripture that GOD IS RIGHT...

JC I will always share with you, and here is a small witness, make of ot what you wish but here goes...
I healed people by praying for them. It did not work every time, but some amazing healings took place. I qouted scripture that I never read before in my life. When I did youth ministery for the first time in my life, I knew NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE. Oh except for maybe the Lord's Prayer, but not competely or in the right order... I sort of know some of it... You see I DID NOT GRROW up in a church... But at the age of 38, I found myself VERY INTERESTED IN THIS JESUS FELLA...

And not even two months after my first day in church, I was a deacon in that church, and I was asked to attend a final year catcasant weekend in the Drakenberg mountains... That weekend was VERY special, BUT!!!! Just look at all the mistakes in IGNORANCE, and LACK OF KNOWLEDGE we made....First... God says that they must not appoint NEW or YOUNG converts to posts, for they shall fall in the trap of SATAN... Also God says.... A Deacon, should be found BLAMELESS if inverstigated... I was not... and that he should be a man that house the mystery of faith n a clean conscience... I did not even know what the mystery of faith is, and I certainly did not have a clean conscience...

God also says that if the teaching part comes this man should be APT TO TEACH.... WOW! This is UGE! I wonder if God would have to com to CC and show who here ARE APT TO TEACH, how many people do you thing will be shown out? I doubt if there is ONE, including myself.

Who can teach this verse, and not be a HYPOCRATE? Be perfect.... MAt 5:48.
Yet SEEKINGJC, that weekend was pretty special, an maybe God only gave flashes of what may happen, or He was not even involved AT ALL. But I qouted Scripture that I NEVER read before, and as a "bonus" I would go to that scripture and read it to the boys. How I knew where it was found, I CANNOT explain. And no matter what was done in that following two years, with various "miricles" and they were unexplainable works and wonders.... I was tested by God's Truth, The WORD THAT FLOWS LIKE RIVERS... and my HOUSE (DOCTRINE) was washed AWAY!

Two verses shook my WORLD, and it was found FALSE.... This is a very short version of CALLING of God. I came back from a Jesus-Film showing with Campus Cruisade. I prayed for a two yearold boy that had a misformed hip, and NOTHING happened. So I went home and around midnight sat at the table where I do Bible study, and said.... "Lord, what is this game You play? Why did You not heal the boy tonight? We could have saved MANY SOULS tonight. I am fed-up with these games, this is your last chance with Cobus Myburgh. You better show me if you are real or not! I opened my Bible and read... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


I was shocked and I said out loud.... Lord this is NOT TRUE, we will always be sinners... SEE that two years in church at least taught me ONE THING... WE WILL ALWAYS BE SINNERS, EVEN THOUGH GOD IS OUR FATHER... Well that soon would VANISH as the CHAFF that will burn in the FIRE.... MY CHAFF I ACCEPTED AS TRUTH!!! So now that I told God that His Word is a lying scoundral, I said.... God and what about all the people I healed in your NAME? Come on, YOU HEALED them when I asked, that is what I complain about tonight.... WHY so on and off!!!! Again I opened my Bible, and this is what I read...Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sarahm, Zonie, SeekingJC... imagine the shock I had... I thought GOD was healing the people, but HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW ME..... Why? I WORKED THE INIQUITY.... I was a sinner! Still am! Wonder if I am elected, HOPE SO! Anyway, I was so shocked and I knew there HAS to be something I can DO to KNOW THE TRUTH or to GET GOD TO KNOW ME...

So I asked.... LORD what should I do? And He said.... IN A VERY CLEAR VOICE.... GENESIS 1:1 START!

So I started. And my friend, I LOVED WHAT I READ... It ALL fitted so well in with BE PERFECT.... The Whole Bible is FULL of that advice. And also full of the ADVICE... GO AWAY from me, Ye that work the iniquity... So here I am, a repenting sinner, and God and I might be acquintances now? Who knows but the man in WHOM THAT SPIRIT DWELLS?

Hi Cobus,

First peace and love. I didn't grow up in church either I was Roman Catholic and mostly nominal at that. God called me to him over the last couple of years. I'm stubborn so I missed some of the more subtle hints. He knows Im a sinner when he called me I was a practicing wiccan (pagan). A lot of my beliefs weren't even close to what He demands of us, but He chose me anyway. I say He chose me because that's the best way I can describe it. No person brought me to God, no organization, church or otherwise. God brought me to Him. I didn't accept it at first. I studied the bible first and although I've read it before it held new meanings for me. I understood it a whole lot better. It was as if God had gifted me with some understanding so I could be closer to Him. If you wanna laugh you can look up my other post about how He hit me in the head with a bible more proof of my stubbornness. When I accepted Christ and confessed and repented for my sins big and small I was like someone took off a blindfold. It was like before I was seeing life in a haze and now it became quite clear.

But I still sin. But now It hurts me when I do and I know I need to fix it immediately. In my interpretation I think that is what is meant in the passage about not being able to sin. Not that we can't but that when we do it eats us up inside until we repent. God is glorious and patient and merciful to those who maintain a relationship with Jesus Christ. I think that is what God desires most is that you simply trust in Him and love Him as He does you. I don't think He demands perfection just your Love and faithfulness. The only perfect person was, is and ever will be is Jesus Christ. I'm running out of time so I will post more when I can maybe PM you.

God Bless

 

[homwardbound]

your dream about what goes on in heaven means little home.

back up modern prophets and tongues and baptism by fire being a cool thing BY SCRIPTURE.

or not.

the day of Pentecost and God also pours out God's Spirit upon all flesh,oh wait a minute he said water upon all flesh?
Romans 5:5Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 Corinthians 2:13These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Ephesians 3:5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
1 Thessalonians 4:8Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 1:14That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Hebrews 9:8the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.