The rapture
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S
What Paul is referring to in 2 Timothy is that through his ministry, some might be saved. At this point in time, not all of the elect have received salvation, for we know that others are certain to be saved before Jesus returns, whenever that may be. Paul was not referring to Jews, only. We certainly know that Jews are a part of God's elect, but not the entirety of it.
As for Romans 11, it is a great mystery of Israel in the last days. They are not cast aside, as some believe, but merely temporarily blinded for our sake. They, as a people, are also God's elect, just as is the Church. But you cannot say that the elect exclusively refers to Jews. Romans 8 talks about God's elect:
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
A plain reading of the text shows that, at least this reference, the elect is talking about the Church. Plainly, the elect, are ALL of those chosen from before the foundation of the world for salvation. Whether you believe that God foreknew your decision, or have a more Calvinist point of view, is irrelevant. The fact remains that the elect are NOT merely Jews.
The meaning of Romans 11 is the mystery of Israel in the last days. I am not sufficient to discuss such a matter, but I'll try, prayerfully. One of the keys to this is Romans 11:31. "... that because of the mercy shown to you they also now may be shown mercy." Again, consider the valley of dry bones prophesied in Ezekiel. Most have interpreted this to be symbolic of Israel's restoration as a nation in the last days. While that may be true, in part, it is not the fullness of what this passage is foretelling. In these last days, Israel will be reduced to dry bones. All of the world will resist her and persecute her in the "time of Jacob's trouble(Jeremiah 30:7)" But in that time, who is the son of man that will prophesy life to those dry bones? It is the gentile Church. If the Church is gone, whisked away in the night to leave Israel to her destruction, who will be the ones to show mercy to that broken people, who will be marred more than any man? All of the animosity and hatred between Jew and Gentile will be erased and eradicated by God, through a people who will show mercy and identify with Jacob in a time when to do so will mean death for that people. It will be a great expression of the Cross of Jesus Christ, through the Church. The Church's present sentimental fascination with Israel, and hoping that they will somehow succeed is not sufficient for these things. Further, the relax and be raptured mentality the pervades today, is more in line with the foolish virgins who took no oil, and were not prepared for the darkness that came, as the bride groom tarried. They simply did not expect Him to tarry. How will a people who have no oil for their own lamps ever show light to those in need during histories darkest hour? A mentality of pride, laziness, and no tolerance for pain is responsible for the idea that the Church will be whisked away, while Israel, God's salvific agent to the world, is left to suffer at the hands of her enemies. Shall God's vessel of salvation to the world enter into his kingdom through hardship, while wild olive branches are ministered an entrance without peril?
H
Is it bothering no one else that there is a lot of rudeness and disrespect going on in this thread? People will have their opinions however right or wrong they are. The point is to share them, not to insult them however much wrong they may or may not be.
Christians are not perfect but they ought to be holding a higher standard of behavior than on other message boards.
Christians are not perfect but they ought to be holding a higher standard of behavior than on other message boards.
C
Greetings,
It appears you are mistaking the Rothschild's Khazar military state of "Israel" for God's Israel. The Israel of the Bible are a people not a geographical location, Israel who are decended from Jacob/Israel are in new covenant with God through His Christ as per Hebrews 8:8-12 as prophecised by Jeremiah 31.
Israel was to be given a new home other than Canaan land. 2 Samuel 7:10
Israel's was to have unwalled boundries. Ezekiel 38:11
Israel's land is described as containing 'saints' (Christian's), in fact only a Christian can be part of God's Israel which is under blood convenant and has been saved by Christ. Revelation 20:7-9.
Israel was to have a new relgion and be saved by God! Jeremiah 31:7,31-37.
Israel was to carry the Gospel to the world. Isaiah 49:3-6.
Israel was to be the only nation given God's law! God's law is fullfilled completely in Jesus Christ - His Son - He is the Law!
Israel was to be blind to her own identity as God's Israel! Isaiah 42:16-19
Israel was to be called by a new name. Isaiah 62:1-2 (Christian - Christ-sons!)
None of the history of the created state of "Israel" in Canaan identifies with God's true Israel, they who call themselves "Jews" but do lie and are revealed by Christ in Revelation 2:9 to be the "Synagogue of Satan", and are decended from Esau/Canaanite/Ashkenaz/Khazar tribes, they are Christ killers and anti-Christs and their law is the law of the babylonian Talmud! anybody who believes the "Jews" to be God's elect is decieved and should repent immediately. Israel is blinded! Do you understand what that means? You are reading your Bible upside down and the wrong way about, the institutionalized churches and indoctrination centres are lead astray by the devil, only God will testify to His chosen in the wilderness.
It appears you are mistaking the Rothschild's Khazar military state of "Israel" for God's Israel. The Israel of the Bible are a people not a geographical location, Israel who are decended from Jacob/Israel are in new covenant with God through His Christ as per Hebrews 8:8-12 as prophecised by Jeremiah 31.
Israel was to be given a new home other than Canaan land. 2 Samuel 7:10
Israel's was to have unwalled boundries. Ezekiel 38:11
Israel's land is described as containing 'saints' (Christian's), in fact only a Christian can be part of God's Israel which is under blood convenant and has been saved by Christ. Revelation 20:7-9.
Israel was to have a new relgion and be saved by God! Jeremiah 31:7,31-37.
Israel was to carry the Gospel to the world. Isaiah 49:3-6.
Israel was to be the only nation given God's law! God's law is fullfilled completely in Jesus Christ - His Son - He is the Law!
Israel was to be blind to her own identity as God's Israel! Isaiah 42:16-19
Israel was to be called by a new name. Isaiah 62:1-2 (Christian - Christ-sons!)
None of the history of the created state of "Israel" in Canaan identifies with God's true Israel, they who call themselves "Jews" but do lie and are revealed by Christ in Revelation 2:9 to be the "Synagogue of Satan", and are decended from Esau/Canaanite/Ashkenaz/Khazar tribes, they are Christ killers and anti-Christs and their law is the law of the babylonian Talmud! anybody who believes the "Jews" to be God's elect is decieved and should repent immediately. Israel is blinded! Do you understand what that means? You are reading your Bible upside down and the wrong way about, the institutionalized churches and indoctrination centres are lead astray by the devil, only God will testify to His chosen in the wilderness.
S
This is a theology known as suppressionism. It is the idea that the Christian church replaces the Jews. Romans 11 completely blows this theology out of the water. Anyone who believes that God has elected Israel should repent? Really? Doesn't the Bible say that God chose them. Doesn't Romans 11 say that they are not cast aside, only temporarily blinded for our sake? Yes, it does. Anyone who is in the grips of such as a blatant anti semitism as you are should repent immediately, not those who believe scripture.
S
Further, I understand completely that the nation state of Israel is not synonymous with God's people, Israel. However, the Jews, the world over, will still be the recipients of the promise, after the time of Jacob's trouble, as they are embraced and reconciled through the Gentile Church, and the Law WILL go forth from Zion. They are not forgotten.Your anti semitism and the ranting and raving that is characteristic of some of your posts was born in hell.
Yes the Jews are under a time of blindness/hardening until the fullness of gentiles has come in (Rom 11:25, 11:12). Israel (the Jews) are not totally forgotten or rejected. That does not mean that all Israelites/Jews will be saved, by virtue of being Jewish.. but a fair proportion will turn to Christ, and so be saved.
Rom 11:29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.
The bible even says the Jews are God's friends:
Rom 11:28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors.
The bible nor any apostle nor Christ makes any such distinction between Israel and Jews as Cup is doing, that is just silly.
Rom 11:29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.
The bible even says the Jews are God's friends:
Rom 11:28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors.
The bible nor any apostle nor Christ makes any such distinction between Israel and Jews as Cup is doing, that is just silly.
Yes the Jews are under a time of blindness/hardening until the fullness of gentiles has come in (Rom 11:25, 11:12). Israel (the Jews) are not totally forgotten or rejected. That does not mean that all Israelites/Jews will be saved, by virtue of being Jewish.. but a fair proportion will turn to Christ, and so be saved.
Rom 11:29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.
The bible even says the Jews are God's friends:
Rom 11:28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors.
The bible nor any apostle nor Christ makes any such distinction between Israel and Jews as Cup is doing, that is just silly. For all practical purposes they are one and the same.
The common theme throughout the old and new testament is salvation by grace through faith. We might think that this idea of saved by grace through faith came in in the new testament, and occurred only since the time of Christ, but that is wrong. Grace through faith started in the time of Abraham (and perhaps even before Abraham?) , the spiritual father of everyone who is justified by faith. And it continued throughout the old testament. God's people the Israelites/Jews have always been separated between those who lived by faith, like their spiritual father Abraham, and the rest who lived according to law but without grace through faith. That is what separated Christ's followers from the legalistic Pharisees etc. The few who lived by faith out of Egypt, and the many who preferred bondage. The whole point and purpose of the law was a test of and to bring them to, the faith of Abraham (Gal 3:24-25). The distinctions between real people of God and the false, is nothing to do with blood-relation as Cup is doing in his distinction between the various races or people groups, but spiritual. Because a lot of blood-ancestors to the bible Israelites are today in fact Muslim. So we would be forced to say that Muslims are God's people....
Rom 11:29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.
The bible even says the Jews are God's friends:
Rom 11:28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors.
The bible nor any apostle nor Christ makes any such distinction between Israel and Jews as Cup is doing, that is just silly. For all practical purposes they are one and the same.
The common theme throughout the old and new testament is salvation by grace through faith. We might think that this idea of saved by grace through faith came in in the new testament, and occurred only since the time of Christ, but that is wrong. Grace through faith started in the time of Abraham (and perhaps even before Abraham?) , the spiritual father of everyone who is justified by faith. And it continued throughout the old testament. God's people the Israelites/Jews have always been separated between those who lived by faith, like their spiritual father Abraham, and the rest who lived according to law but without grace through faith. That is what separated Christ's followers from the legalistic Pharisees etc. The few who lived by faith out of Egypt, and the many who preferred bondage. The whole point and purpose of the law was a test of and to bring them to, the faith of Abraham (Gal 3:24-25). The distinctions between real people of God and the false, is nothing to do with blood-relation as Cup is doing in his distinction between the various races or people groups, but spiritual. Because a lot of blood-ancestors to the bible Israelites are today in fact Muslim. So we would be forced to say that Muslims are God's people....
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C
You don't provide any scripture for your assumption.
The House of Judah and the House of Israel were under covenant as soon as Jesus' blood hit the ground and that is confirmed in Hebrews 8:8-12, however the "jews" (you may want to check the meaning of that word) are the 'synagogue of satan' and that is confirmed in Revelation 2:9 by Jesus Christ, the "jews" are known to Christians by their introduction in the Book of Kings as decended from Esau, all of Judah and Israel are now Christian, it is Israel that is blinded to her identity as the chosen people of God, and it is this that God chooses to reveal now, to His children- Israel.
I have previously explained the meaning of the words 'jew', 'Israel' and 'gentile', unfortunately you are lacking in both education and biblical knowledge, the Holy Spirit will guide those chosen into understanding.
C
Exactly He has chosen Israel and Judah who all became Christian, they were saved by Christ who is their Lord.
Their ancestor is Esau, whom God hates, the jews search the scripture in vain as you do.
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The Bible always distinguishes between "Jews" (Yehuwdiy) and Israel and Judah, always.
Here you prove yourself to be anti-Christian.
The House of Israel are not "Jews".
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Muslims are descended from Ishmael. Christians are descended from Jacob and Yehuwdiy by their Chaldee name are descended from Esau and Canaanites whom became Khazars who now make up the false usurpers. This is all prophecy and is known to the true children of God who are Christians.
Their ancestor is Esau, whom God hates, the jews search the scripture in vain as you do.
[/quote]
The Bible always distinguishes between "Jews" (Yehuwdiy) and Israel and Judah, always.
Here you prove yourself to be anti-Christian.
The House of Israel are not "Jews".
[/quote]
Muslims are descended from Ishmael. Christians are descended from Jacob and Yehuwdiy by their Chaldee name are descended from Esau and Canaanites whom became Khazars who now make up the false usurpers. This is all prophecy and is known to the true children of God who are Christians.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Nope, not correct.
What does that make you then?
Wrong. The house of Israel includes the Jew. House of Israel refers to ancestry, Jew refers to religion. But the use of the word Jew came to mean the whole of Israel since the tribe of Judah was pretty much the main tribe left.
Wrong. Muslims came from Arabia from other tribes. Abraham or Ishmael were never in Mecca. (The claim they are descended from Ishmael an attempt by Muslims to tie in their history with the bible and lay claim to Jerusalem, but many fall for this lie). That Mohammed went to Jerusalem is another lie told by Islamists. Ishmael resulted in various northern arabian tribes known as Ishmaelites.
Wrong.
Nope, not correct.
What does that make you then?
Wrong. The house of Israel includes the Jew. House of Israel refers to ancestry, Jew refers to religion. But the use of the word Jew came to mean the whole of Israel since the tribe of Judah was pretty much the main tribe left.
Wrong. Muslims came from Arabia from other tribes. Abraham or Ishmael were never in Mecca. (The claim they are descended from Ishmael an attempt by Muslims to tie in their history with the bible and lay claim to Jerusalem, but many fall for this lie). That Mohammed went to Jerusalem is another lie told by Islamists. Ishmael resulted in various northern arabian tribes known as Ishmaelites.
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I don't need scripture to disprove your statements, simple logic and rational thinking is all that is required given you are so irrational.. I doubt that you got your view about Muslims descended from Ishmael, or your views re: Rothschild's, from the Bible.
But , I can find numerous cases in the bible where Jew and Israel are spoken of interchangeably. The apostle Paul was a Jew even. They are not diametrically opposed ideas or people groups, they mean the same thing.
Jews are God's beloved people and God loves them.
Jews are God's friends.
But , I can find numerous cases in the bible where Jew and Israel are spoken of interchangeably. The apostle Paul was a Jew even. They are not diametrically opposed ideas or people groups, they mean the same thing.
Jews are God's beloved people and God loves them.
Jews are God's friends.
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Acts 22:3 , Paul said he was a Jew.
And Paul also said he was an Israelite (Rom 11:1).
Israelite and Jew are one and the same, their specific difference in meaning was lost and either word can be used interchangeable.
Jesus Christ was a Jew (John 4:9).
These Scripture shows your argument and distinction between Israelite vs Jew to be wrong.
And Paul also said he was an Israelite (Rom 11:1).
Israelite and Jew are one and the same, their specific difference in meaning was lost and either word can be used interchangeable.
Jesus Christ was a Jew (John 4:9).
These Scripture shows your argument and distinction between Israelite vs Jew to be wrong.
Don't you know that simple logic and rational thinking is EVIL? I've read it on the homepage saying that Obama is an Alien from Mars! 
I have to agree with Snail. It would make no sense to distinguish between Israelites and Jews. All of the 12 apostles were Jewish, even Jesus Christ was a Jew. Very simplified, a Christian is a Jew who accepts Jesus as his savior.
I have to agree with Snail. It would make no sense to distinguish between Israelites and Jews. All of the 12 apostles were Jewish, even Jesus Christ was a Jew. Very simplified, a Christian is a Jew who accepts Jesus as his savior.
C
It's a geographical location, paul is stating his address, just like I am from Melbourne, Australia, that has nothing to do with my race or what tribe I am from. You can see that word means 'Judean', it simply means a subject of Judea, that is not actually a Yehuwdiy it is merely a person who resides in the state of Judea, Paul could have been a Canaanite or a Persian or an Egyptian and still have been a Judean, but he was a Benjamite.
Your quote proves what I have already stated.
Jesus Christ was not a "jew" that is a false charge against Him. Pilate thought He was a "Jew" and that was the charge against Him, you also find Him guilty and that is something you will have to deal with on your Judgement Day.
Your quote proves what I have already stated.
Jesus Christ was not a "jew" that is a false charge against Him. Pilate thought He was a "Jew" and that was the charge against Him, you also find Him guilty and that is something you will have to deal with on your Judgement Day.
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