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Sep 4, 2012
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#81
Now is the corrupted nature somehow stronger than the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit? Are we are to submit to the corrupted nature or the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Let's see what the scripture says:
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Eph 4:22-24
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation [behaviour] the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

God has given us a new man, a new spirit, clad in the robe of righteousness and true holiness which we are to put on.:)
That's true. And what happens when you don't walk in the new man? The old man has not ceased to exist. Paul would not say to make no provision for the old man if it did not exist.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#82
are skinski and homes still claiming they have no sin?

cast them out, they have no truth
God has all the truth not you, me or anyone else so include all. Let every man be a liar and God be the truth.

What right do you have in Judgiing others Matthew 6 oyu might need to read the consequences of being under law and Judgement

I never once claimed to be without sin Zone, I claim God to be without sin and God only. For god is the only one good. And I do not promote sin as some do, God knows who they are and God will deal with them in God's time
One saying they sin over and over again and just take advantage of it not caring will not escape
[h=3]Hebrews 2:3[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
I just pray for your happiness. I live daily and die daily trusting God to take care of my future, and praying for all to come to blief in Chrst's finished work at the cross

God did call us to trust God for God to stopsin in us by God and for God getting all the credit. I have doubt in God. I do not know about anyone else but no matter what God does just oove them. People like you are unfortunately CONDEMING to others as many of your posts have shown this, a tree is always identified by its fruit
Thank you and have a great day
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#83
That's true. And what happens when you don't walk in the new man? The old man has not ceased to exist. Paul would not say to make no provision for the old man if it did not exist.
that is the whole point make no provision fo rthe flesh

[h=3]Romans 6:11-15[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#84
Those who say they do not have a corrupted nature are liars, because all do sin and it is impossible to sin without a corrupted nature.

The cross does not remove one's corrupted nature, but it does cause GOD's judgment to pass over the effects of one's sins, i.e., eternal death. All people rightfully deserve eternal death; but GOD in mercy passes over that judgment for those who trust in that mercy. This is the faith of Christ that we receive and exercise in GOD's grace.

Unbelief in this reality is the ultimate, mortal sin for which there is no forgiveness. One must repent of unbelief in GOD's forgiveness in order to find forgiveness.

This is the faith that allows us with sinful natures to be holy. GOD's grace makes, and keeps, us holy, not our deeds. If we do something that is sinful, we become defiled. To be cleansed of the defilement we simply must return to that from which we turned: GOD's grace. Turning from that grace is what caused us to sin. Turning back to that eternally available grace through acknowledgment of sin is what cleanses and makes us holy.
How about make no provision for the flesh by considering oneself dead to flesh and alive to God. If you see yourself dead to sin flesh by the death then you can see yourself rasied to new life and live that new life hmm!!!!!!!!
[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


[h=3]Romans 6:11-15[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#85
How about make no provision for the flesh by considering oneself dead to flesh and alive to God. If you see yourself dead to sin flesh by the death then you can see yourself rasied to new life and live that new life hmm!!!!!!!!
Sounds like good advice.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#86
this is the part i don't get.
why do we have to die to flesh, like Picles said
i read all kinds of things about evil flesh, and good spirit i don't get it.
dont we keep our bodies clean and just control our flesh? or is there something evil in our flesh?
i'll ask my teacher.

if someone could explain this it would help.
Ill try to explain in the understanding that was given me in Jesus Christ is Lord.
I was reading through Paul's letters, (Im sorry I cannot quote the spacific one) but I read where Jesus said that when you recieve me, I place a part of my spirit in you.
So thus ones dies with Jesus to flesh, and is now born into His spirit.
Our flesh is now the temple in where Jesus's spirit resides, and we now live in His spirit.
In Jesus, no longer of the world, yet we still live in the world.
We are born into Jesus's spirit so we will have eternal life, scripture says that flesh and blood cannot enter into Heaven, but spirit does.
Scripture also speaks to how we are first like babes, needing milk, but as we grow, we mature to meat. :)
In Jesus's spirit we are born, thus needing to look to Jesus, God Our father for everything to grow, mature.
The flesh is now the temple, which we are to keep clean, free of sin.
So simply said, we now are alive in Jesus's spirit, and in all given by Jesus, we grow to maturity. :)

Do read the scriptures though, and look to Jesus for all understanding. :)

God bless
pickles
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#87

I put together a documentary on the subject of Original Sin whereby I duplicated the research of Chris Hill and concisely annotated his presentation into a visual format. The doctrine of being "born in sin" ala "Original Sin" was accepted into Christian orthodoxy via the prolific influence of Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth Century. It's a historical fact.

Penal Substitution was developed about 400 years ago by reformed thinkers who added a judicial aspect to Anselm's 11th century Satisfaction model of the atonement. The following link contains some of my writings with annotated references on this issue...
UMM Skinski,

Isn't this the dude are in agreement with? What did history show about Pelagius? How about taking a look at that for a bit.

The Gospel According to the Heretic Pelagius


[video=youtube;NpdUGdqOLCw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpdUGdqOLCw[/video]

Just to hear the other side.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#88
How will we be saved? Grace through faith? please post the verse so we can see! (Easy: [SUP]8 [/SUP]Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; - Ephesians 3;8) ...........Oh, and another couple -
[SUP]4 [/SUP]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(do you think the Apostle is being pretentious in THE ANOINTED WRITING OF THE WORDS OF GOD?!?) - Did Paul have Stephen killed before he-{the Apostle Paul was converted}? DID PAUL NOT WASTE THE CHURCH BEFORE HE WAS CONVERTED? DID NOT JESUS HAVE TO SHOW HIMSELF{glorified} to the man SAUL BEFORE HE{the man Saul}would believe?
So, you can see how he truly WAS the least of all saints, seeing as he almost single handedly killed the infant church.
- - - - - - Now please read Romans Chapter 7- (written by the same man), and square it with your idea of perfection.


And what does this FAITH IN JESUS means... Do you have this faith, this UNWAVERING faith.... I do not hve it. Some say it is doubt? Well I might doubt MANY things about myself, but about God, NOPE! Not a single thing... There IS NOTHING in the Bible I do not believe 100%.

The only thing I do doubt, as ZONE correctly stated is.... AM I ALSO CHOSEN. I know 1000 people said I was, but what is the use, IF I CANNOT BELIEVE! I might be selfish today, to make it all about me AGAIN! But I hate it, when I ask God something, and it is not done! I hate it if I ask God to do as HE PROMISES, and nothing happens.

I ask NOTHING for myself, but for others, and I ask IN HIS WILL... BUT!!!! God does not hear, so I stopped asking. For four years now, I pray not, but just say... IF I SEE THIS, YOU SHOULD ALSO LORD.... YOU DAO AS YOU PLEASE, I ASK NOTHING!

Then there comes the times when I am just in conversation with the WORD if you like, maybe if I say I am in conversation with GOD people might take offence... So let us just say I start talkin Bible, and the Bible starts talking to me... Scripture would come up in my head, as NOTHING ever before... I would HEAR the Word of God in my head, and I would fight it and argue it, and more Scripture would come up, and if I take up the Bible and go to that scripture, the surrounding scripture would ALL FALL IN PLACE and I would be ENLIGHTENED by the TRUTH....

Those moments are amazing... And there is not one ounce of doubt in that. When I do want to pray, it is no longer REQUESTS, but rather... Speak lord thou servant listens... And I do. And HE DOES... but God cannot do this for no reason, so I would not jump the gun, but wait on the LORD.... He will DO what HE planned for my life.

The doubt I have? I still cannot believe HE CHOSE ME! That is UNREAL! And when I believe what HE IS GOING TO MAKE ME IN THE COMPLETED WORK OF GOD.... I just am bommed OUT. Few people believe what God REGENERATE... It is truly a GODLY WORK.


MAy God bless you with HIS POTTERY WORK! A vessel unto honour. Amen
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#89
Romans 7 was written AFTER he was saved!!!!

Cobus..........get over your own damned insistence on your own perfection!

If you were perfect Jesus wouldn't have had to die for you!

Oh! You say you should be made perfect now....NOW!!! - (If he did , you wouldn't need him anymore....you'd become like Lucifer - Saying, - "Wow, I shine quite brightly"........Have I need anymore of Jesus? - - - Ugh......NO!!!
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#91
The Romans 7 wretch was under the law and not grace. Paul starts by comparing the law with marriage...Rom 7:1-6
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Similarly, the person who is enslaved to sin is under the law of sin as sin lives in them but when they are dead to sin and alive in Christ (regenerated), they are free from the law. The law is compared to the husband.
The unregenerate is married to the law under sin but when the power of sin is broken they are married to Christ and released from the law of sin and death in the context of "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2), just as when the woman's husband is dead she is released from the law of her husband.

So the Romans 7 wretch was under the law whereas regenerates are under grace therefore it characterises a pre-conversion experience.


I hope that makes sense. :)
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#92
Romans 7 was written AFTER he was saved!!!!

Cobus..........get over your own damned insistence on your own perfection!

If you were perfect Jesus wouldn't have had to die for you!

Oh! You say you should be made perfect now....NOW!!! - (If he did , you wouldn't need him anymore....you'd become like Lucifer - Saying, - "Wow, I shine quite brightly"........Have I need anymore of Jesus? - - - Ugh......NO!!!
I think Paul might have confirmed this
[h=3]2 Corinthians 12[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]Paul’s Vision and His Thorn[/h]12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— [SUP]4 [/SUP]was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, [SUP]7 [/SUP]or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. [SUP]10 [/SUP]That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#93
The Romans 7 wretch was under the law and not grace. Paul starts by comparing the law with marriage...Rom 7:1-6
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Similarly, the person who is enslaved to sin is under the law of sin as sin lives in them but when they are dead to sin and alive in Christ (regenerated), they are free from the law. The law is compared to the husband.
The unregenerate is married to the law under sin but when the power of sin is broken they are married to Christ and released from the law of sin and death in the context of "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2), just as when the woman's husband is dead she is released from the law of her husband.

So the Romans 7 wretch was under the law whereas regenerates are under grace therefore it characterises a pre-conversion experience.


I hope that makes sense. :)
To me my Sister absolute and put straight Paul said in romans 6

Romans 6:11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus

Now the more we count our old Spouse dead the more we are free to serve Yes?
When one dies to human effort, one comes alive to God's love and grace provided by Christ through the cross
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#94
The Romans 7 wretch was under the law and not grace. Paul starts by comparing the law with marriage...Rom 7:1-6
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Similarly, the person who is enslaved to sin is under the law of sin as sin lives in them but when they are dead to sin and alive in Christ (regenerated), they are free from the law. The law is compared to the husband.
The unregenerate is married to the law under sin but when the power of sin is broken they are married to Christ and released from the law of sin and death in the context of "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2), just as when the woman's husband is dead she is released from the law of her husband.

So the Romans 7 wretch was under the law whereas regenerates are under grace therefore it characterises a pre-conversion experience.


I hope that makes sense. :)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let's read and not pontificate so much, (at least include the whole of the scripture)

Romans 7

7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14[/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.(Here ya' go, Paul the Apostle speaking in contemporary terms of his fight with the flesh)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.(notice thats not the future or the past tense. It's plainly the present tense. ...That the Apostle NOW, not figurative, not directive, that is a real confession of the Apostle NOW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.(Now Cobus, your homework assignment is to figure out the next verse)
[SUP]20[/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(read on)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22[/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
- - (Kind of puts all boasting aside, 'ey Cobus?)
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#95
So shall we sin that grace may abound?

NO!!!

But it is there and we all have to deal with it.....so just get over it! - (That's called faith...denying your sensual urges for the gospel's sake, and for the love of God)
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2011
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#96
UMM Skinski,

Isn't this the dude are in agreement with? What did history show about Pelagius? How about taking a look at that for a bit.

The Gospel According to the Heretic Pelagius


[video=youtube;NpdUGdqOLCw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpdUGdqOLCw[/video]

Just to hear the other side.
Sarah,

You need to do your own research and stop blindly following what others teach.

Here you quote a video full of inaccuracies. I put it on my iPod this morning and was listening to it as I worked and it was very typical on how those who adhere to Augustinian Theology completely misrepresent Pelagius.

I will do a fully annotated writeup when I have more time which will shed much light on this subject.

First of all I am not a Pelagian, I am a Christian. I am not aligned with everything Pelagius expounded yet I do not view him as a heretic.

These people who misrepresent Pelagius are either grossly ignorant having not actually studied for themselves what Pelagius actually wrote or they are purposefully misrepresenting facts in order to uphold Reformed Theology.

In that video at around 2:16 they speak of Pelagius' commentary on the book of Romans which they say that Pelagius teaches that people "merit God's acceptance by their obedience" (2:30) and that Pelagius taught that "eternal life is obtained by free will and not by grace" (2:50).

Pelagius wrote this...

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. He has discussed the point that none of them is justified by works, but all by faith, and he proves this with the example of Abraham, of whom the Jews think they alone are children. He has also explained why neither race nor circumcision but faith makes people children of Abraham, who was justified initially by faith alone. Now, having finished this argument, he urges them to be at peace, because none is saved by his own merit, but all are saved in the same way by God's grace. Let us have peace with God. Either, let us both submit to God; or, let us have the peace of God, not merely of the world.
Those deceivers will never quote that above passage because it proves they are misrepresenting Pelagius and what he taught.

Pelagius also wrote this...

Rom 3:28 For we deem that a person is justified through faith without the works of the law. We are sure' or we judge. Some misuse this verse to do away with works of righteousness, asserting that faith by itself can suffice for one who has been baptized, although the same apostle says elsewhere: And if I have complete faith, so that I move mountains, but do not have love, it profits me nothing 1 Cor. 13: 2); and in another place declares that in this love is contained the fullness of the law, when he says: 'The fullness of the law is love (Rom. 13: 10). Now if these verses seem to contradict the sense of the other verses, what works should one suppose the apostle meant when he said that a person is justified through faith without the works [of the law]? Clearly, the works of circumcision or the Sabbath and others of this sort, and not without the works of righteousness, about which the blessed James says: 'Faith without works is dead (Jas. 2: 26). But in the verse we are treating he is speaking about that person who in coming to Christ is saved, when he first believes, by faith alone. But by adding 'the works of the law he indicates that there is also a work of grace which those who have been baptized ought to perform.
The above quote in reference to Romans 3:28 is very interesting because that is the same verse which Martin Luther added the word "alone" to faith. Yet Martin Luther's view is very different to the view of Pelagius in that Martin Luther made no distinction between the "works of faith" and the "works of the law."

Pelagius understood that "justified through faith apart from the works of the law" was in the context of...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Thus "faith working by love" is a HEART ISSUE as opposed to RULE FOLLOWING. Rule following will not justify anyone and this is why righteousness is of faith and not of the law.

These people in this video have no understanding whatsoever of the dynamic of salvation by grace THROUGH faith. To them justification is wrought via the abstract provision taught in the error of Penal Substitution whereby one is saved IN sin. Thus their doctrine completely negates HEART PURITY in salvation. To them the death of Christ is a CLOAK for ONGOING DEFILEMENT and thus they will always argue in favour of "ye can sin and not surely die" with great swelling words of emptiness which deceive the simple.

I'll write more later but the misrepresentations shown above ought to compel you to stop blindly believing people and to do YOUR OWN research into these things.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#97
Here you quote a video full of inaccuracies. I put it on my iPod this morning and was listening to it as I worked and it was very typical on how those who adhere to Augustinian Theology completely misrepresent Pelagius.

I will do a fully annotated writeup when I have more time which will shed much light on this subject.

First of all I am not a Pelagian, I am a Christian. I am not aligned with everything Pelagius expounded yet I do not view him as a heretic.

These people who misrepresent Pelagius are either grossly ignorant having not actually studied for themselves what Pelagius actually wrote or they are purposefully misrepresenting facts in order to uphold Reformed Theology.

In that video at around 2:16 they speak of Pelagius' commentary on the book of Romans which they say that Pelagius teaches that people "merit God's acceptance by their obedience" (2:30) and that Pelagius taught that "eternal life is obtained by free will and not by grace" (2:50).

Pelagius wrote this...



Those deceivers will never quote that above passage because it proves they are misrepresenting Pelagius and what he taught.

Pelagius also wrote this...



The above quote in reference to Romans 3:28 is very interesting because that is the same verse which Martin Luther added the word "alone" to faith. Yet Martin Luther's view is very different to the view of Pelagius in that Martin Luther made no distinction between the "works of faith" and the "works of the law."

Pelagius understood that "justified through faith apart from the works of the law" was in the context of...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Thus "faith working by love" is a HEART ISSUE as opposed to RULE FOLLOWING. Rule following will not justify anyone and this is why righteousness is of faith and not of the law.

These people in this video have no understanding whatsoever of the dynamic of salvation by grace THROUGH faith. To them justification is wrought via the abstract provision taught in the error of Penal Substitution whereby one is saved IN sin. Thus their doctrine completely negates HEART PURITY in salvation. To them the death of Christ is a CLOAK for ONGOING DEFILEMENT and thus they will always argue in favour of "ye can sin and not surely die" with great swelling words of emptiness which deceive the simple.

I'll write more later but the misrepresentations shown above ought to compel you to stop blindly believing people and to do YOUR OWN research into these things.
Skinski,

Of course your going to say that because you are closer in mind to Pelagius then to Augustine. Your the one that keeps posting that video about Augustine.

You missed the point. Like it or not Pelagius WAS declared a heretic multiple times,by multiple councils over many years. You do leave that out. The only thing you bring up is that Pelagius was exonerated by a single local council. The question that remains are they right?


 
Sep 4, 2012
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#98
These people in this video have no understanding whatsoever of the dynamic of salvation by grace THROUGH faith. To them justification is wrought via the abstract provision taught in the error of Penal Substitution whereby one is saved IN sin. Thus their doctrine completely negates HEART PURITY in salvation. To them the death of Christ is a CLOAK for ONGOING DEFILEMENT and thus they will always argue in favour of "ye can sin and not surely die" with great swelling words of emptiness which deceive the simple.
'Saved in sin', 'Christ is a cloak', and 'ongoing defilement' are just deceitful catchphrases created by either you or your cult to imply some type of disobedience.

The latter implies that those who believe Christ is a cloak are trying to hide, or cloak, their sin. The fact of the matter is, though, that the blood of Christ is very much a covering, not to hide from GOD, but to cause his wrath to pass over sinful beings who justly deserve eternal death, yet who trust in the blood of the lamb. That is grace. There is no indication that the Israelites were told to repent of sin to keep the death angel from visiting their dwellings during the first Passover in Egypt. But they were told to trust in the blood that covered over the judgment due them. Christ our Passover is the fulfillment of that type.

'Saved in sin' implies that a believer hasn't repented of sin. That may be true for some, maybe many, but certainly not all. Peter told the crowd at Pentecost to repent and be baptized into freedom from their sins. He didn't say repent of sin, but to repent of their unbelief and thereby receive freedom from the power of their sins that the cross provides.

"Ongoing defilement suggests that one has not repented of sin, or believes that man has a sinful nature. But you have not yet addressed the fact that it is impossible to commit a sin without a corrupted, sinful nature. A tree either produces good or bad fruit depending on its nature. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit; and there is no such thing as an amoral tree that produces bad fruit. Yet that is essentially what you teach. Don't try to suggest that Adam and Eve being perfect chose to sin. They both corrupted their natures first, then chose to sin out of their corrupted natures. Eve corrupted herself by loving the things of the word more than GOD, and Adam corrupted himself by loving his wife more than GOD.
 
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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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#99
Romans 7 was written AFTER he was saved!!!!

Cobus..........get over your own damned insistence on your own perfection!

If you were perfect Jesus wouldn't have had to die for you!
That is correct. Paul was already saved when he wrote Romans 7. In Romans 7, he is showing the battle between the two natures. Even though we are saved, that does not mean that we will never have a problem with sin in the flesh again. We as Christians have to remember that our Soul is redeemed. But our flesh is not redeemed. Therefore, a Christian is still capable of committing all the sins that a lost person is.

The thing that is different about a Christian is that he will not be in bondage to sin. Like the lost world is. And when a Christian does sin, he will face chastisement and discipline from the Heavenly Father. Plus, if a Christian sins, he will still have to pa the consequences for his sin while on this earth. Will God forgive that Christian, Of course God will forgive him. But that Christian will still have to goo through the consequences of his sin. For example, if you commit robbery, be prepared to face some jail time. If a man watches porn and gets addicted to it, then that man will suffer a broken marriage and a broken family, plus he also will suffer loss of rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

But the truth of the matter is, we as Christians will still have trouble in the flesh.


Romans 7 (King James Version)

7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 1:25 (Holy Bible)


Again, in that whole passage Paul was showing the very real struggles with the flesh that even he had. Even Paul, the greatest Christian who ever lived, had to deal with his flesh, with his old nature.

And if Paul the Apostle had struggles with his flesh, what makes us Christians think that we will not have some trouble in the flesh?

Again, we are not to continue in sin, but there will be times when we do come short of the glory of God. There will be times when we are going to sin, but when we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father. And our advocate is Jesus Christ the Righteous.




5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:5-10 (Holy Bible)




2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. - 1 John 2:1-8 (Holy Bible)



 
Nov 26, 2011
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Skinski,

Of course your going to say that because you are closer in mind to Pelagius then to Augustine. Your the one that keeps posting that video about Augustine.

You missed the point. Like it or not Pelagius WAS declared a heretic multiple times,by multiple councils over many years. You do leave that out. The only thing you bring up is that Pelagius was exonerated by a single local council. The question that remains are they right?


There is simply no point dialoguing with you Sarah because consistently ignore the content of what I write by diverting to new angles.

That video you quoted clearly misrepresented Pelagius. They are discrediting a FICTION and they are LYING (whether intentionally or ignorantly) when they assert certain teachings to Pelagius which he did not teach. You completely ignored that and went to the authority of councils.

Jesus Christ Himself was declared a heretic by a council of Pharisees and put to death. So much for the councils of men.