examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

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A

Abiding

Guest
You are correct gifts are not taught. . .there is one gift. . .holy spirit. . .and it was given. There are nine manifestations within that one gift that are manifested by the believer. Just as there is the "fruit" of the spirit but nine "fruits" within that "fruit" which the believer manifest.

You are correct we don't know for a certainty if Jesus taught them or at least told them what would happen on Pentecost to prepare them . . . just as we don't know for a certainty that he didn't.

This is just my thoughts on the matter. . .it's okay if you do not believe anyone was taught. . .I'm just saying that we don't know for sure either way.
I like that you call them manifestations and not gifts if more knew that and what
it means and put it with vrs 11 there would be less problems.

Ok were at the church council...imagine it...how the jews were amazed that
the gentiles received the Holyspirit and were part of the church and for proof
absolute proof Peter pulls out a speaking in tongues learning class attendance report.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I really dont think many people really understand Pentecost or the days
between the cross and 70ad and the massive change that occured
between the Old and New covenant and the gentiles being called.

Its like ....duh they did it so why cant i? without even regard to what
really went down, why, and how long.

Its like Israel saying Hey why cant we strike the rock and have a fire by night
and a cloud by day....God never changes!!!
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I like that you call them manifestations and not gifts if more knew that and what
it means and put it with vrs 11 there would be less problems.

Ok were at the church council...imagine it...how the jews were amazed that
the gentiles received the Holyspirit and were part of the church and for proof
absolute proof Peter pulls out a speaking in tongues learning class attendance report.
LOL, Abiding.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
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63
I really dont think many people really understand Pentecost or the days
between the cross and 70ad and the massive change that occured
between the Old and New covenant and the gentiles being called.

Its like ....duh they did it so why cant i? without even regard to what
really went down, why, and how long.

Its like Israel saying Hey why cant we strike the rock and have a fire by night
and a cloud by day....God never changes!!!
Again, just my thoughts:

1 Corinthians 12:7 does state that the "manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". . . which of course would be every believer because only a believer receives the gift of holy spirit. . .so I see nothing wrong with applying that scripture to me as a believer.

 
A

Abiding

Guest
Again, just my thoughts:

1 Corinthians 12:7 does state that the "manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". . . which of course would be every believer because only a believer receives the gift of holy spirit. . .so I see nothing wrong with applying that scripture to me as a believer.


Ok lets take out the big unknown for most compound word.

Abidings translation: For the evidence of the activity of the Holyspirit in each and every believer
is given to profit the body............which will happen whenever to whom ever
the Holyspirit wants it to and when He wills.

This chapter doesnt not say it was throughout time. It contradicts that when the Holyspirit acts through the
person He retains this ability or gift=divine influence or divine enablement. "severally as He will" means just that.
"manifestation" would not have been used if it meant that. Jesus gave a good discription when He referred it to leaves
shaken in the wind, but cant see the wind. So the context give no indication the time extent of these manifestations.
But it does say the distributor both in what and when is up to the Holyspirits will.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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I think that it is SAD that a lot of churches abuse the manifestations of the spirit. . .
peaceful,
could you possibly say a little on what you see when you see churches abuse the manifestations of the spirit?
what does it look like; sound like; what are the effects when they are abused?
how do you or the leaders of a congregation determine what is abuse; what is not?

this is what i'm asking.
repeatedly.

thanks
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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I can't lay hands on anybody and impart something to them just because I want to. God has to tell me to do it.
so your claim is direct revelation (discussion-instruction) from God to Stephen, i.e.:

Stephen, I God want you to lay your hands upon this person and impart such and such a gift to them.

you are claiming the same direct authority and power the Apostles had...is that fair to say.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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This one is the most accurate. His explanations were very good.
45 sec
piper says if you don`t talk about the gifts (tongues) and teach them, they tend to fade from prominence.
i thought anyone teaching the gift was in error.

he says he reject portions of the pentecostal (denomination) history which says all must speak in tongues etc.
it is always interesting to me that the only HISTORY we have to draw from on this matter comes from the new denomination called pentecostalism.

the denomination is new, and the practices are new.

he says he sees nothing to indicate the gifts would cease.....i will look for mr. piper on the matter of modern prophets. is he consistent as a continuationist....i do not know.

2:25
he says he sees the gift of tongues as two distinct things - two kinds of expressions:

1) actual languages

ì have heard stories that people without knowing what they are doing have spoken a language that somebody from another people group understood.

says different thing happening at Corinth:

2) ecstatic utterance

no ordinary human meaning - tongues of angels.
is a kind of utterance where your heart is full to the point of overflowing, with the Holy Spirit, He looses your tongue to utter those syllables and they are of spiritual value to you, and if there is someone with an interpretation, then they become spiritually valuable to others.

without an interpreter, dont do it in public.

he feels these gifts should take place in smaller groups within the church.
says corporate utterance is unwarranted.

(QUESTION: tongues are a sign for unbelievers....what value is there in speaking in tongues among believers in small groups within the church)

he says he does not believe he has ever authentically spoken in tongues.
he said he used to sing in tongues, but he knew it wasnt real.
he was just making it up.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
45 sec
piper says if you don`t talk about the gifts (tongues) and teach them, they tend to fade from prominence.
i thought anyone teaching the gift was in error.
Teaching the gifts exist is different from teaching how to do them. The first is mandated by every pastor's role of teaching all of Scripture. The second is the error.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Teaching the gifts exist is different from teaching how to do them. The first is mandated by every pastor's role of teaching all of Scripture. The second is the error.
well, i disagree.
teaching what those supernatural gifts were for is needed.
that should happen and be clear everytime The Word is just allowed to speak.

but is suspect Piper and others who have a liking for what passes as those gifts today meant - is teaching that they ARE for today, whether normative or not. and if that group is practicing said things, people learn by example. i wish we wouldn't pretend this wasn't the case:)

which completely undermines and diminishes what they really were, and the Uber-Miraculous that not one of us alive today witness.

but you knew i would say that.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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As far as the gifts ceasing, one can only speculate. Between the book of Malachi and the prophecy of John the Baptist was a cessation of 400 years. There's nothing in Scripture that says it would happen or did happen. I do not know whether the gifts stopped due to unbelief, false teaching, grievous wolves, etc. etc. All I do know is the Scriptures say the signs shall follow them that believe.

I don't believe tongues are a preeminent gift above the others. Paul makes that clear when he tells us that prophecy is to be preferred over tongues.
Mark 16
The Great Commission


14Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

....

these things were said ABOUT those He personally sent out.

WE KNOW FROM SCRIPTURE THOSE SIGNS ACCOMPANIED THEM.
don't we?:confused:

"So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

Luke 24
44Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”


Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

that was of course Pentecost.
it's in the PAST.

we read about it.

.........

do we need the message confirmed with signs - now that we have the Scriptures and The Holy Spirit testifies to us in them of everything concerning our salvation, and Christ?

do we need signs?

does anyone today require a sign?

Jesus didn't like that - at all.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
well, i disagree.
teaching what those supernatural gifts were for is needed.
that should happen and be clear everytime The Word is just allowed to speak.

but is suspect Piper and others who have a liking for what passes as those gifts today meant - is teaching that they ARE for today, whether normative or not. and if that group is practicing said things, people learn by example. i wish we wouldn't pretend this wasn't the case:)

which completely undermines and diminishes what they really were, and the Uber-Miraculous that not one of us alive today witness.

but you knew i would say that.
I knew I should have said "teaching that the gifts exist(ed)."
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
peaceful,
could you possibly say a little on what you see when you see churches abuse the manifestations of the spirit?
what does it look like; sound like; what are the effects when they are abused?
how do you or the leaders of a congregation determine what is abuse; what is not?

this is what i'm asking.
repeatedly.

thanks
Again. . .this is my belief. When I see a church where a bunch of people are speaking in tongues all at once . . . that is what I consider abuse. . or wrong . . . because:

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

When I see a church with people running up and down the isles, so-called "dancing in the spirit", etc. causing disorder or confusion in the church. . .I consider abuse. . .or wrong. . .because:

For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people.
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

That is what I consider improper usage of the manifestations and why.
:)
 
J

jinx

Guest
david danced before the LORD.....was he wrong?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Again. . .this is my belief. When I see a church where a bunch of people are speaking in tongues all at once . . . that is what I consider abuse. . or wrong . . . because:

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

When I see a church with people running up and down the isles, so-called "dancing in the spirit", etc. causing disorder or confusion in the church. . .I consider abuse. . .or wrong. . .because:

For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people.
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

That is what I consider improper usage of the manifestations and why.
:)
okay...t.y.
so no one at your church speaks in tongues unless there is a translator there, right?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
david danced before the LORD.....was he wrong?
course not.
did people dance in the Temple?
did the priests break dance while conducting the worship services?

to each their own.

in my church peaceful reverence for the Lord and respect for when the Word is taught (there is silence during this time) FROM THE BIBLE, not anecdotal or allegorical interpretations to make the stories about me:

i.e.:
do i have a Goliath in my life to kill?

do i have a mountain to move?

can i dinf my purpose like Nathan the prophet did?

do i follow through with my purpose like Samson?

am i doing all i can to fulfill my promised land experience?


not saying your church does this....but it's that stuff i find intolerable. eck.

i LOVE our lectionary; the quiet but joyful and expectant assembly.

the prayers; the db=benedictions; the weekly or x2 weekly readings of Scripture (OT, Gospel and epistles); Communion and all the other things we do when we gather (singing etc).

i have been to the enthusiastic congregations....tons of tambourines and drumming; dancing in the aisles; flag waving....but....when is the pastor actually in the Pulpit READING the Bible?

is it is secodary or leser importance than those other things?
 
U

unclefester

Guest
he says he does not believe he has ever authentically spoken in tongues.
he said he used to sing in tongues,
but he knew it wasnt real.
he was just making it up.
Kudo's for his honesty ... in his continuing state of confusion on the matter. It was somewhat refreshing to see him at least admit that he was faking it ... and knew as much. But yet somehow, he still believes that he should teach it from the pulpit. Now I'm not coming down on John Piper. I've listened to him a few times and enjoyed him. But I will say that if I at one time faked that I was a miracle worker, I would disqualify myself from teaching on the subject. But that's just me and how I see it :)
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Kudo's for his honesty ... in his continuing state of confusion on the matter. It was somewhat refreshing to see him at least admit that he was faking it ... and knew as much. But yet somehow, he still believes that he should teach it from the pulpit. Now I'm not coming down on John Piper. I've listened to him a few times and enjoyed him. But I will say that if I at one time faked that I was a miracle worker, I would disqualify myself from teaching on the subject. But that's just me and how I see it :)
This breaks it down to brass tacks, we are either going to believe that what others do/say, miracles, God speaking to them through tongues, or not. unclefes, john piper is one example of someone who, what, confessed they were doing fake miracle work, that God was not working through him?

Just saying this: that the person that was healed is who matters. Just like the W.O.F. ministry ,or, those who pray rich blessings on those who believe in God's power in their life through faithful giving. What happened when those folks gave money--a lot orf money, let's just say, money, too, they did not have--and, suddenly they won the lottery or got a big job raise or ???

Therein, here, lies the whole verification and understanding of tongues between different doctrinal beliefs:

1. One group believes that the person that got the car got it because God just wanted it in their life and blessed them at that exact time (what a coincidence ! ) , it had NOTHING to do with the power of prayer from the W.O.F. (Word Of Fatih) person.

2. One group believes that God gave them the car because they prayed.


of course, we know what two camps we speak of here: cessationists for the '1.' and '2.' continuationists in the other, of the differing 'gifts' still here, or, passed away after 1st Century--but will come back in the latter days--time.

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Also, tongues will be in a church so that God can be glorified, those there will NOT feel uncomfortable because God will be speaking to them. I have a verse on my tongue for this 'understanding,' but can't think of it at the moment for this, hmmm . Christ in us does reveal all truth to us through His Spirit, so, maybe, 1 Corinthians, is good reference. Like when Paul is speaking to the congregation at Corinth, he is humble and says that he could speak with scholarly message and his own brilliance but that is not what he's doing because what comes from him is 'self,' and, Paul wants what comes from him to be from God, namely, 'His Spirit' in Paul speaking to the Corinthian Christians.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
And, speaking of 'manifestation,' they are both gifts and manifestations, hence, they are manifestation gifts. God manifests His gifts in us through His gift of Himself (Holy Spirit) to us :)

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David danced before the Lord but that had nothing to do with speaking in tongues in church, again, everyone will be EDIFIED, as was said in an earlier post, and, those who are in the church will KNOW that God is doing a mighty work in that church. God does not just do something for nothing, He does stuff for something, to accomplish His good will and pleasure through us. God is NOT the author of confusion, and, I could be wrong, as, the Lord leads, but I don't believe God would have His Spirit speak out in a chaotic, but Godly fashion in a church. You will feel a PEACE of God letting you understand what is going on, God is not into seclusion. He will take care of us, IF we cast our cares on HIm :)
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
Just saying ,squirrelabidinghouse, that God works in us so that we are not feeling condemned IF someone is speaking in tongues in a church :)

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I am not sure if you want anything said of manifestations part but I will if it's not clear. The gifts themselves are manifestations, therefore, they are 'manifestation gifts' of the Spirit :)