Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

[GRA]

Please read the following posts:

What does the word 'rapture' mean to you? post #31
What does the word 'rapture' mean to you? post #44

 

[PlainWord]

Dear fellow Christians. I have studied this issue for over 20 years (My dad was a Baptist minister) and was taught as a young child through my 20s of the Pre Trib Rapture. So, the Pre-Trib belief was my view until recently. However, through careful reading of the Word and research into the man who is responsible for developing the theory, John Darby in 1830, I have concluded that the Pre Trib Rapture is FALSE and likely the work of SATAN as a means for; (1) causing Christians to fight, (2) not to prepare for the tribulation itself – not to watch as we are commanded to do, (3) to destroy the credibility of the church once the Trib starts and the church is still here, and (4) to bring about the falling away of the church - causing son to rises up against father, brother against brother etc as it is written, during the end times. That's right; this false doctrine is very dangerous. It will cause Christians to lose their faith, turn away from the Lord and even rat out their fellow believers to be persecuted and killed during the Tribulation.

There is only ONE SECOND COMING and it is at the end of the age (After the Tribulation). There isn't one verse that clearly places the second coming BEFORE THE Tribulation, NOT ONE!! There isn't even a verse that clearly puts the church in heaven during the Great Tribulation. All "Rapture" verses either are silent about the timing or place it at the END of the Tribulation. Those who blindly believe the majority of the pre-trib teachings of most churches today have forgot to FOLLOW THE CLEAR READING OF THE WORD and Not to rely on man's interpretations or inferences. That said I don't fault any believer for buying this FALSE belief as it has been so extensively taught. But I do encourage all to read the scriptures carefully, clearly and see for themselves. And most importantly, to love one another regardless of our differences.

The Bible is so clear about the second coming of the Lord that I find it shocking that so many believers have been deceived including many great men of God. If there was a Rapture before the Tribulation, don't you think Jesus would have mentioned it during His Olivet Discourse? Pre-Tribbers try to tell us that Jesus was talking to the Jews in Mat 24, Mark 13, etc, therefore he left out the rapture and instead focused on the Day of the Lord which Jesus clearly puts at the end of the Tribulation. Pre-tribbers try to explain this as Jesus warning the future, newly believing Christians who convert during the Rapture. Pre-tribbers always use that argument for any mention of believers being on the earth during those days. But, Jesus wasn't asked by unbelieving Jews. He was asked by believing Jews, his own disciples. Therefore JESUS would have told them not to worry and not to fear if there was a pre-trib rapture. Instead we have Him telling them that they will face Tribulation and warning those in Judea where and when to flee. 11 of his 12 disciples were killed for their faith so why should we expect better treatment when the Lord commands us to, "take up our cross and follow Him" and that, "we will be hated by all Nations, etc?"

Paul couldn’t be clearer in 2 Thessalonians, “Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that DAY will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition (ANTI-CHRIST), who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God…”

Read also Romans 11 where Paul discusses in depth the grafting of the Church into the wild olive tree (Believing State of Israel). God does NOT have separate plans for the church and Israel. God will unite His faithful, not treat them as two groups. The non believing Jews (branches) are ripped out and the believing Gentiles are grafted in. Then the remnant of the Jews who believe will be grafted back in and we all become the Bride of the Lamb.

Consider also John 6 where Jesus talks of the last day 4 different times in this Chapter. He has HIS judgment and the dead and Christ being resurrected on the same “last” day. This is impossible if there was a pre trib rapture, see 1 Thes 4:15. Consider also that Rev 7:9 puts a multitude FROM THE GREAT TRIBULATION in heaven after the 6th seal. These are NOT recently converted Christians. The Sixth Seal is a mass death event and it will kill untold millions. That's why there are there, because all Alive Christians were on earth at the time and many killed at the clear start of the Tribulation. (The previous 5 seals were part of the “days of sorrows” more on that later). Consider also that the Lord's Day is also when He will receive glory. Doesn't everything think that if Jesus came before the Rapture in the way it is described that everyone would know about it and immediately believe, as they do when He really comes? So why then would there be a falling away first?

There is a lot more I could say if I had space but let’s be clear, Jesus would have clearly taught a Pre Trib Rapture if there was one. This relatively new theory is flat out wrong and I will debate any scholar any day.

 

[PlainWord]

His wrath is to be poured out on the Beast and His kingdom. As God did with Noah and Lot, we have been told what to do and where to go to avoid his wrath. Also, it seems clear that Paul in 1 Thes 5:9, isn't talking about God's wrath during the tribulation. He is more likely referring to God's judgment wrath where the unbelieving are cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:14

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:9

 

[Brucenorm]

[Greets, Christian Chat. Get a load of the following - a really informative piece that I ran into on the web. Lord bless.]

Pretrib Rapture Pride

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google "Morgan Edwards' Rapture View" and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include "The Unoriginal John Darby," "X-raying Margaret," "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart," "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism" - most from the author of "The Rapture Plot" (the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history) which can be obtained by calling 800.643.4645.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
(Postscript: For another jolt or two Google "The Background Obama Can't Cover Up.")

 

[ChosenbyHim]

[Greets, Christian Chat. Get a load of the following - a really informative piece that I ran into on the web. Lord bless.]

Pretrib Rapture Pride

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google "Morgan Edwards' Rapture View" and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include "The Unoriginal John Darby," "X-raying Margaret," "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart," "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism" - most from the author of "The Rapture Plot" (the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history) which can be obtained by calling 800.643.4645.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
(Postscript: For another jolt or two Google "The Background Obama Can't Cover Up.")

Bruce, I exhort you do your own studies in the word and to see what the Scriptures have to say about the Rapture. Afterall, our Final Authority is the word of God. Study the Authorized Version and rightly divide it and ask God to show you the truth and to give you understanding of His word. And to what His holy word teaches about the Rapture of the Body of Christ.
The Pretrib Rapture teaching and doctrine is found in the pages of the Authorized Version. But your going to need to do your own studies in the word of God. Give due diligence in studying the Scriptures. And again, remember that the Holy Scriptures are our Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice.

 

[PlainWord]

Bruce, I exhort you do your own studies in the word and to see what the Scriptures have to say about the Rapture. Afterall, our Final Authority is the word of God. Study the Authorized Version and rightly divide it and ask God to show you the truth and to give you understanding of His word. And to what His holy word teaches about the Rapture of the Body of Christ.
The Pretrib Rapture teaching and doctrine is found in the pages of the Authorized Version. But your going to need to do your own studies in the word of God. Give due diligence in studying the Scriptures. And again, remember that the Holy Scriptures are our Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice.

Brucenorm. Props to you for an excellent piece. The Pre Trib Rapture view is the work of Satan and his minions. We are in a spiritual war and sadly many Christians have fallen for this LIE!! So well done!!

Dear Chosen,

I hate arguing with a fellow Christian but this is such an enormously important topic that I would like to debate this with you, with utmost respect, using only the scriptures as authority as you have suggested. Would you like to take me up on this? I suggest we use the NKJV as the authority.

To believe in a Pre Tribulation Rapture you must prove the following points with scripture, not conjecture. So, let's start with you quoting scripture that PROVES the following Pre-Trib MUSTS. Please give me passage and verse that prove each of the below:

1. That the Bible specifically places the Rapture (or gathering) BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
2. Alternatively (if you can't prove #1), provide a passage that delineates two separate returns of the Lord.
3. Any passage(s) that has a Rapture and the Day of the Lord mentioned as two distinct events.
4. Show me a verse that specifically has the Raptured Church in heaven during the tribulation.
5. Show me any verse that clearly identified believers on earth during the Tribulation as new, un-raptured believers.

let's start there. Thanks.

 

[starfield]

Brucenorm. Props to you for an excellent piece. The Pre Trib Rapture view is the work of Satan and his minions. We are in a spiritual war and sadly many Christians have fallen for this LIE!! So well done!!

Dear Chosen,

I hate arguing with a fellow Christian but this is such an enormously important topic that I would like to debate this with you, with utmost respect, using only the scriptures as authority as you have suggested. Would you like to take me up on this? I suggest we use the NKJV as the authority.

To believe in a Pre Tribulation Rapture you must prove the following points with scripture, not conjecture. So, let's start with you quoting scripture that PROVES the following Pre-Trib MUSTS. Please give me passage and verse that prove each of the below:

1. That the Bible specifically places the Rapture (or gathering) BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
2. Alternatively (if you can't prove #1), provide a passage that delineates two separate returns of the Lord.
3. Any passage(s) that has a Rapture and the Day of the Lord mentioned as two distinct events.
4. Show me a verse that specifically has the Raptured Church in heaven during the tribulation.
5. Show me any verse that clearly identified believers on earth during the Tribulation as new, un-raptured believers.

let's start there. Thanks.

The biblical doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture makes distinction between the rapture of believers in Christ before the tribulation and Christ's second coming after the tribulation.

The rapture is not in view in this passage rather it alludes to the gathering of Israel immediately after the tribulation at Christ's second coming:
Matt 24:30-31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is referring to the rapture of believers. Notice that there is no 'gathering' here but being 'caught up' in the air to meet the Lord:
1 Thess 4:16-17
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are not parallel passages.

 

[PlainWord]

Dear Friend. My comments in red.

The biblical doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture makes distinction between the rapture of believers in Christ before the tribulation and Christ's second coming after the tribulation. Where? what passage? Where is this distinction taught? I can't find it. Please show me one passage that discusses both the Pre-trib rapture AND Christ's second coming after the trib. The Bible either discusses the 2nd coming after the Tribulation or is silent as to the timing. With respect there is no "biblical doctrine of pre-tribulation." it is a man's doctrine. Jesus never taught a pre-trib rapture and neither did any of the profits or his disciples.

The rapture is not in view in this passage rather it alludes to the gathering of Israel immediately after the tribulation at Christ's second coming:
Matt 24:30-31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Please don't leave out vs 29 which comes IMMEDIATELY BEFORE the verses you cite. I've included it for you.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

There is nothing stated in the passage you cite that it is Israel being gathered. Rather it says, the "elect." The elect is often referred to as God's people - Israel. But don't forget Romans 11. I think Paul is telling us that the church will be grafted into Israel and we become one, likely at some point before or during the Tribulation but certainly before the Lord's coming.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, [SUP]14 [/SUP]if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[SUP][f][/SUP] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved...

This is referring to the rapture of believers. Notice that there is no 'gathering' here but being 'caught up' in the air to meet the Lord:
1 Thess 4:16-17
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are not parallel passages.

How do you know this? You make a distinction between "caught up" and "gathered" Is that your support for two separate Comings of the Lord? "Caught up" and "gathered" sound like the same thing to me.

Dear friend, you have shown me nothing but conjecture. You have not cited one verse that answers any of the 5 critical things I put forth needed to prove the Pre Trib Rapture theory.

Okay, lets go on the offensive. The Pre-Trib Rapturist also believe the dead in Christ will be raptured with the Church, correct? How do you explain the below passages? How can the dead in Christ be raised at the last day when the pre-trib rapture clearly is NOT the last day?

John 6
[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [h=3]Rejected by His Own[/h][SUP]41 [/SUP]The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” [SUP]42 [/SUP]And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[SUP][e][/SUP] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[SUP][f][/SUP] from the Father comes to Me. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[SUP][g][/SUP] has everlasting life. [SUP]48 [/SUP]I am the bread of life. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. [SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. [SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

You cited 1 Thessalonians. Now let's look at 2 Thessolonians 2


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


It sure sounds like Paul is discribing the same coming of Jesus and only one of them. Why would the Bible not be clear if there were two 2nd comings and 2 gatherings? This is a pretty important thing. The desciples clearly asked the Lord for a sign of his coming in the Olivet Discourse yet the Lord only mentions one second coming. Why would he only describe His coming after the tribulation and not mention the one before the Tribulation? It would seem to me that a Pre-Trib coming would be one heck of a sign that we could see to know that the Trib was coming soon and the end of the age would not be far behind. Strange the Lord would leave out such a monumental clue as coming in the clouds and catching up millions of the church. That would be an event most people would recognize as a sign.

 

[Bluecomet]

You are very WRONG!

 

[PlainWord]

Further to all those who believe the Pre-Trib lie.

If the Lord really comes before the Tribulation in the clouds with all His glory and called up, gathered or what have you - tens of millions or hundreds of millions of Christians world wide why give the warning about false Christs? Why would the Lord go on and on about not believing in false Christs if he was coming first? The whole world would see this event and it would be as glorious as the Lord says it will be when he comes at the end of the tribulation. So how can the world fall for an Anti-Christ when they all saw the real Christ beforehand?

It would seem to me that the works of the Anti-Christ would pale in comparison to the real Lord coming in the clouds just a few years earlier. It would seem to me that the Anti-Christ would have one heck of a tough sell IF there was a rapture. Conversely, it would seem like an easy sell if there was no rapture when the church has been preaching one for nearly 200 years once the Tribulation starts and everyone is still here. This would also bring a "falling away" as taught by Paul in 2 Thes 2.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Brucenorm. Props to you for an excellent piece. The Pre Trib Rapture view is the work of Satan and his minions. We are in a spiritual war and sadly many Christians have fallen for this LIE!! So well done!!

Dear Chosen,

I hate arguing with a fellow Christian but this is such an enormously important topic that I would like to debate this with you, with utmost respect, using only the scriptures as authority as you have suggested. Would you like to take me up on this? I suggest we use the NKJV as the authority.

To believe in a Pre Tribulation Rapture you must prove the following points with scripture, not conjecture. So, let's start with you quoting scripture that PROVES the following Pre-Trib MUSTS. Please give me passage and verse that prove each of the below:

1. That the Bible specifically places the Rapture (or gathering) BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
2. Alternatively (if you can't prove #1), provide a passage that delineates two separate returns of the Lord.
3. Any passage(s) that has a Rapture and the Day of the Lord mentioned as two distinct events.
4. Show me a verse that specifically has the Raptured Church in heaven during the tribulation.
5. Show me any verse that clearly identified believers on earth during the Tribulation as new, un-raptured believers.

let's start there. Thanks.

Plain, you can use the NKJV if you want to, but I am sticking with the Authorized Version.

By the way Plain, I don't know if you know this but the NKJV is not a revision of the King James Version.

The NKJV is a deceptive bible version that blends Textus Receptus readings with Nestle's readings.

I suggest you stick with the pure word of God. And that is the Authorized Version.

Now before I answer you, I want to first continue on the good point my sister in Christ Starfield made.

And that is that Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are indeed two different events.

How can one know that? Well, by rightly dividing the word of truth.

And by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

In Matthew 24, you have our Lord Jesus Christ giving us the signs of His Second Coming and also the signs taking place right after the time of Jacob's trouble and immediately before His Second Coming:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:27-31 (Holy Bible)


Now Plain, let me ask you this question, where do you see those signs mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18?

Or do you see any of those sings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15?

 

[PlainWord]

You are very WRONG!

Please prove me wrong. I was a pre tribber for nearly 40 years. I drank the Kool Aid that you drank. Then I studied for myself. The Pre-trib Rapture is like Santa Claus. It hurts to have been lied to (unintentionally or not) and believed this lie for years.

The Lord did not teach 2 second comings because He is only coming back once. I can't prove a negative. It is up to those who believe something that isn't taught to prove their theory. I only ask that you do so with scriptures not just a blanket statement that I am very wrong. You may as well tell me that there is a Santa Claus too.

 

[PlainWord]

Plain, you can use the NKJV if you want to, but I am sticking with the Authorized Version.

By the way Plain, I don't know if you know this but the NKJV is not a revision of the King James Version.

The NKJV is a deceptive bible version that blends Textus Receptus readings with Nestle's readings.

I suggest you stick with the pure word of God. And that is the Authorized Version.

Now before I answer you, I want to first continue on the good point my sister in Christ Starfield made.

And that is that Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are indeed two different events.

How can one know that? Well, by rightly dividing the word of truth.

And by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

In Matthew 24, you have our Lord Jesus Christ giving us the signs of His Second Coming and also the signs taking place right after the time of Jacob's trouble and immediately before His Second Coming:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:27-31 (Holy Bible)


Now Plain, let me ask you this question, where do you see those signs mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18?

Or do you see any of those sings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15?

Chosen,

We can use the KJV if you want. I just wanted to stick with one version that we both use.

You are parsing, using conjecture and taking things out of context. Regarding the Olivet Discourse, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked the below questions:

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The Lord answers them directly the questions they put to Him which includes Him giving them signs.

Paul in 1 Cor 15, wasn't discussing the signs of the Lord's coming. He was merely discussing the hope we have in Christ. In 1 Thes 4, Paul was merely discussing the comfort we have in knowing the Lord is coming.

Again brothers (and I mean this in love), show me two separate 2nd comings of the Lord or show me any passage that puts a 2nd coming BEFORE the Tribulation. Without showing one of these, you have no valid doctrine.

 

[PlainWord]

I want to clarify something. Paul does give us the timing.

1 Thes 4:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The dead in Christ rise first. Hmm, Jesus talks about this in John 6 in multiple places and calls it "the Last Day." Who are those alive and remain? Remain from what? A pre-Tribulation period or a chaotic tribulation period where the faithful are beheaded? Seems weird to use remain unless there are plenty that don't remain. Which trumpet?

1 Cor 15:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

To have a last trumpet requires that there be others that go before. Where in end times passages do you see more than 1 trumpet? There are the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. Are there others? I don't know of any.

2 Thes 2:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

We know from Daniel that the Abomination of Desolation occurs at the mid point of the 70th week or 7 year Trib. Jesus himself references this.

So, why is Paul telling us of just one gathering to one 2nd coming? Please don't tell me he is speaking to end times, post rapture, newly converted Christians. If he was he should have clarified this.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Dear Friend. My comments in red.

How do you know this? You make a distinction between "caught up" and "gathered" Is that your support for two separate Comings of the Lord? "Caught up" and "gathered" sound like the same thing to me.

Dear friend, you have shown me nothing but conjecture. You have not cited one verse that answers any of the 5 critical things I put forth needed to prove the Pre Trib Rapture theory.

Okay, lets go on the offensive. The Pre-Trib Rapturist also believe the dead in Christ will be raptured with the Church, correct? How do you explain the below passages? How can the dead in Christ be raised at the last day when the pre-trib rapture clearly is NOT the last day?

John 6
[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Rejected by His Own

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” [SUP]42 [/SUP]And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[SUP][e][/SUP] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[SUP][f][/SUP] from the Father comes to Me. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[SUP][g][/SUP] has everlasting life. [SUP]48 [/SUP]I am the bread of life. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. [SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. [SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

You cited 1 Thessalonians. Now let's look at 2 Thessolonians 2


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


It sure sounds like Paul is discribing the same coming of Jesus and only one of them. Why would the Bible not be clear if there were two 2nd comings and 2 gatherings? This is a pretty important thing. The desciples clearly asked the Lord for a sign of his coming in the Olivet Discourse yet the Lord only mentions one second coming. Why would he only describe His coming after the tribulation and not mention the one before the Tribulation? It would seem to me that a Pre-Trib coming would be one heck of a sign that we could see to know that the Trib was coming soon and the end of the age would not be far behind. Strange the Lord would leave out such a monumental clue as coming in the clouds and catching up millions of the church. That would be an event most people would recognize as a sign.

Plain, the Lord Jesus Christ does actually talk about the Rapture but you can say that He does it in a unique way, in that speaks about it in a parable.

Check out this Scripture, this is really neat:

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. - John 10:1-18 (Holy Bible)

That parable that Jesus spoke in John 10:1-6 is about the Rapture. And notice that His apostles did not understand the things of this parable. Why? Well think about it Plain, when the Rapture first shows up in the Pauline Epistles how does Paul first describe the Rapture?

Paul first describes the Rapture as a mystery.


47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:47-58 (Holy Bible)


Plus, another thing to consider is this: was there any specific references to the Rapture or Catching away of the Body of Christ given in the Old Testament?

Now we know that there were a lot of references given in the Old Testament about the Second Coming of the Lord. I mean there are at least about 500 references to the Second Coming of Christ in the Old Testament.

Now again though, are there any specific references to the rapture in the Old Testament?


Another question for you Plain, we know that the Rapture takes place in the twinkling of an eye.

Now what makes you think that all the signs that are mentioned in Matthew 24:29 are going to take place that fast?

It is obvious that Jesus was referring to His Second Coming in Matthew 24, and not the Rapture.

For those sings in Matthew 24:29 to take place before the Rapture, well then, the Rapture would not be a mystery.

Therefore, the Rapture and Second Coming are two different events.

At the Rapture of the Body of Christ. The Lord Jesus comes in the clouds and we are caught up in the clouds to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18). Jesus only comes in the clouds at the Rapture.

But at the Second Coming (also known as His Second Advent). He physically comes back to the Earth and His feet touch the mount of olives (Zech. 14:4).

We come back with Him at the Second Advent:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. - Revelation 20:11-16 (Holy Bible)

 

[starfield]

Dear Friend. My comments in red.

How do you know this? You make a distinction between "caught up" and "gathered" Is that your support for two separate Comings of the Lord? "Caught up" and "gathered" sound like the same thing to me.

Dear friend, you have shown me nothing but conjecture. You have not cited one verse that answers any of the 5 critical things I put forth needed to prove the Pre Trib Rapture theory.

Okay, lets go on the offensive. The Pre-Trib Rapturist also believe the dead in Christ will be raptured with the Church, correct? How do you explain the below passages? How can the dead in Christ be raised at the last day when the pre-trib rapture clearly is NOT the last day?

John 6
[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Rejected by His Own

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” [SUP]42 [/SUP]And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[SUP][e][/SUP] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[SUP][f][/SUP] from the Father comes to Me. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[SUP][g][/SUP] has everlasting life. [SUP]48 [/SUP]I am the bread of life. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. [SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. [SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

You cited 1 Thessalonians. Now let's look at 2 Thessolonians 2


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


It sure sounds like Paul is discribing the same coming of Jesus and only one of them. Why would the Bible not be clear if there were two 2nd comings and 2 gatherings? This is a pretty important thing. The desciples clearly asked the Lord for a sign of his coming in the Olivet Discourse yet the Lord only mentions one second coming. Why would he only describe His coming after the tribulation and not mention the one before the Tribulation? It would seem to me that a Pre-Trib coming would be one heck of a sign that we could see to know that the Trib was coming soon and the end of the age would not be far behind. Strange the Lord would leave out such a monumental clue as coming in the clouds and catching up millions of the church. That would be an event most people would recognize as a sign.

1. It appears you converted to Post-Tribulational Premillennialism. So let me ask you, who will re-populate the millennium if a post-tribulation rapture will occur? Have you ever thought of that? If all saints will be raptured at the end of the tribulation to put on glorified bodies who will enter the millennium with natural bodies to re-populate it?

2. Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not teach two second comings of Christ. Jesus will not set foot on earth at the rapture rather believers will be caught up in the air to meet Him.

3. The church and Israel are distinct and God's promises for Israel will be accomplished in the future.
Lev 26:44-45 (KJV)
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Rom 11:1-2 (KJV)
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

 

[PlainWord]

Dear Chosen,

I am familiar with all the scriptures you cited. I didn't say there isn't a Rapture, I am questioning the Pre-Trib timing of it. My dear friend, nothing in the scriptures you cited places the Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation, nor do they contain evidence of two separate comings of the Lord. The closest thing you have is the Zech 14:4 passage where the Lord's feet stands on the Mount of Olives verses other passages that has Him coming in the clouds. There is a very simple explanation for that. He gathers us in the clouds, then we are transformed, in the twinkling of an eye, and come down with Him to do battle with "all the saints in heaven."

Remember Paul teaches us that the dead in Christ rise first. They are given glorified bodies and their souls come down from heaven to occupy those bodies. We are then with the Lamb forever and ever.

Paul doesn't tell us that the Rapture is a mystery. He tells us that the mystery is that we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

And it is at the Last Trump. How can the last trump be BEFORE the Tribulation BEFORE the other trumpets sound? It can't. The passages you quote defeat your view. EXPLAIN TO ME THE IDENTITY OF THE OTHER TRUMPETS THAT SOUND BEFORE THIS LAST TRUMPET. Nowhere in the Bible are their other trumpets sounding before the Tribulation that are connected to the Rapture.

The mystery is told in Rev 10:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

The mystery is also told in Revelation 11, which ALSO has the Last Trumpet mentioned. Look at the scene in heaven and we even have an earthquake which agrees with Zech 14.
[h=3]Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[SUP][f][/SUP] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[SUP][h][/SUP] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

My dear friend, all of these passages that deal with the Lord's coming deal with The Day of the Lord. There is no earlier Rapture. The Day of the Lord is that glorious day where all the believers (who remain) on earth are caught up and given glorified bodies right after the dead in Christ and resurrected. The Lord then judges the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom. Look at the description above again. All of this is stated!!! After creation, this will be the most eventful day in all of history.

Remember that the Lord tells us no man will know the day or hour of His coming? That is true, but we do know the time of day and that it will be a dark and gloomy day.

Zechariah 14:


Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.[SUP][a][/SUP]


[SUP]6 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.



The Jewish day starts in the evening so the Lord comes at the beginning of the Day. He has 24 hours to gather the saints (both dead and remaining), split the Mt. of Olives and defeat and judge His enemies. Wow, what a day that will be.

But as for there being another day before the Tribulation when he comes, sorry it just isn't true and you have not proven that it happens BEFORE the Tribulation or that there are two separate comings of the Lord. If you can't see this then I am truly sorry for you my dear brother in Christ. But hopefully you will not despair when the Tribulation starts at the 6th seal and you find that we are all still here for the Lord will come but not until the 7th trumpet.

 

[Brother_Don]

i'm not sure exactly how its all going to happen. i think the pretribs are thinking quite highly of them selves. Like the pretribs are more worthy? i think not. The pretribs sound like a country club saying members only, the low lifes must suffer a while. Well i don't think i'm better than any one else, and pray for the salvation of all, i wouldn't want to see any one burn, i would much rater see every one bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[PlainWord]

1. It appears you converted to Post-Tribulational Premillennialism. So let me ask you, who will re-populate the millennium if a post-tribulation rapture will occur? Have you ever thought of that? If all saints will be raptured at the end of the tribulation to put on glorified bodies who will enter the millennium with natural bodies to re-populate it?

2. Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not teach two second comings of Christ. Jesus will not set foot on earth at the rapture rather believers will be caught up in the air to meet Him.

3. The church and Israel are distinct and God's promises for Israel will be accomplished in the future.
Lev 26:44-45 (KJV)
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Rom 11:1-2 (KJV)
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Dear Starfield,

First let me say that I do not profess to be an expert in all things related to the end times. I am not a pastor or Bible student other than I study the Bible on my own as much as I can. I have studied the "rapture" and tribulation far more than I have the Millennial period. More on that in a moment because I do believe I can answer your question.

For those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture must by necessity also believe that those Raptured are given glorified bodies AND go to heaven to await the Day of the Lord and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth? Is that what you and Chosen or anyone else believe? It is, correct?

So prior to the Rapture there are only souls in heaven with no glorified bodies, right? We see this in Rev 6:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

So we see souls under the alter. I don't know how big the alter is but souls are not that big. In the Pre-Trib view the Rapture would take place where the alive on earth and dead will be raised and given glorified bodies and returned to heaven. Now we would have full sized bodies in the hundreds of millions (potentially) in heaven. They would take up far more space.

See, I don't think the bible teaches that. I think that only souls are allowed in the current heaven. (just as only the souls of the damned go to Hades) I think those who remain through the Trib to the day of the Lord, get their glorified bodies and stay right here on earth and reign with the Lord for the 1,000 years. I think the souls in heaven come down with Christ, their bodies are raised first, then us alive are caught up with them. We then all return together. Paul teaches, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

As for the millennial period and who populates the earth we can look further into Zechariah. The Lord defeats those who rise up against Jerusalem.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

For those who did not actively oppose the Lord and fight against them, they will enter the Millennium as they are. Read further:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Paul further teaches in Hebrews:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Wow. Just killed two birds with that one stone!!! Did you catch that???? "He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." It doesn't say He will appear a second and a third time. To save those who remain and come to Him during the Tribulation, the Lord would have to come a 2nd and 3rd time. Once to Rapture the Church, once to get the new converts. But my friend, this is NOT taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. It is only taught by man who contort the Word of God to support their theory.


So, if you are an unbeliever and make it through the Tribulation, and aren't one of those who are defeated by the Lord when he sets up His kingdom, hope is not lost. Unbelievers can still be saved if they accept the Lord before they die.

To answer question #1. All the Saints with Glorified Bodies and all unbelievers with unglorified bodies.


[h=3]The Nations Worship the King[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

We've addressed point #2. We meet in the clouds, receive glorified bodies and return with the Lord, all in a very short time frame, the twinkling of an eye.

For Point #3, please read on in Romans 11 and you will see that the Gentile church and Israel are grafted together and become ONE.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Dear Chosen,

I am familiar with all the scriptures you cited. I didn't say there isn't a Rapture, I am questioning the Pre-Trib timing of it. My dear friend, nothing in the scriptures you cited places the Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation, nor do they contain evidence of two separate comings of the Lord. The closest thing you have is the Zech 14:4 passage where the Lord's feet stands on the Mount of Olives verses other passages that has Him coming in the clouds. There is a very simple explanation for that. He gathers us in the clouds, then we are transformed, in the twinkling of an eye, and come down with Him to do battle with "all the saints in heaven."

Remember Paul teaches us that the dead in Christ rise first. They are given glorified bodies and their souls come down from heaven to occupy those bodies. We are then with the Lamb forever and ever.

Paul doesn't tell us that the Rapture is a mystery. He tells us that the mystery is that we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

And it is at the Last Trump. How can the last trump be BEFORE the Tribulation BEFORE the other trumpets sound? It can't. The passages you quote defeat your view. EXPLAIN TO ME THE IDENTITY OF THE OTHER TRUMPETS THAT SOUND BEFORE THIS LAST TRUMPET. Nowhere in the Bible are their other trumpets sounding before the Tribulation that are connected to the Rapture.

The mystery is told in Rev 10:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

The mystery is also told in Revelation 11, which ALSO has the Last Trumpet mentioned. Look at the scene in heaven and we even have an earthquake which agrees with Zech 14.
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[SUP][f][/SUP] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[SUP][h][/SUP] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

My dear friend, all of these passages that deal with the Lord's coming deal with The Day of the Lord. There is no earlier Rapture. The Day of the Lord is that glorious day where all the believers (who remain) on earth are caught up and given glorified bodies right after the dead in Christ and resurrected. The Lord then judges the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom. Look at the description above again. All of this is stated!!! After creation, this will be the most eventful day in all of history.

Remember that the Lord tells us no man will know the day or hour of His coming? That is true, but we do know the time of day and that it will be a dark and gloomy day.

Zechariah 14:


Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.[SUP][a][/SUP]


[SUP]6 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.



The Jewish day starts in the evening so the Lord comes at the beginning of the Day. He has 24 hours to gather the saints (both dead and remaining), split the Mt. of Olives and defeat and judge His enemies. Wow, what a day that will be.

But as for there being another day before the Tribulation when he comes, sorry it just isn't true and you have not proven that it happens BEFORE the Tribulation or that there are two separate comings of the Lord. If you can't see this then I am truly sorry for you my dear brother in Christ. But hopefully you will not despair when the Tribulation starts at the 6th seal and you find that we are all still here for the Lord will come but not until the 7th trumpet.

Plain, I won't be here for the tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Body of Christ. It is for unbelieving Israel.


30 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord.
22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it. - Jeremiah 30:1-24 (KJV)

Now Plain, did you see the church mentioned anywhere in that passage?

The purpose for the time of Jacob's trouble is in that passage.

It is to bring Israel into correction.


Now if the rapture is after the tribulation like you say it is, well then there is a big problem. Because then you have three distinct groups of people rather than just two. You see, every true born again Christian is part of the Body of Christ. Also, every true born again Believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit (See Eph. 1:13 and Eph. 4:30).

Which means that Christians in the Church Age have eternal security since they are sealed by the Holy Spirit.