Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[eternally-gratefull]

Absolutely. That's why I do that, too. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

so who do you tithe to. Since the office of levitical priest has been done away with?

 

[KohenMatt]

What commands?

He gave some commands and traditions not to make people closer to him, But to show they were separate. Many of them had a symbolic significant only. Why would we. Under a new covenant, want to go back to what was done before? this makes no sense. EVEN if you believe they have nothing to do for salvation.

Any commands God gave His people in the Torah are applicable to us in some way, either physically or spiritually. So As I read them, learn about them and pray about them, I implement them into my life as the Spirit leads.

All of those commands are physical reminders to us of how to live. The old and new covenants don't nulify each other as the Torah wasn't meant for salvation. You can live under the mercy and grace of the salvation of Jesus while still doing the things God told Israel to do in the Torah to live well. Jesus gives us instructions on how to live well spiritually and physically.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that's wonderful that you celebrate Him like you should! I don't get why you don't see that they're just doing it differently?

I do not think you are understanding what I am saying. WHy would I worry about the way they do it? maybe because I want them to see God for who he is, and have an even more fulfilling and powerful relationship with God they will NEVER get by doing those things?

Would you not want that also?

I am not judging anyones salvation. I could only do that induvidually by hearing what they place their faith in..

I am talking about the major dangers of following tradition and ritual. and how damaging it can be. Even if it does not affect everyone in a negative way. History shows for the most part. people doing it never find God, or use this tradition to make themselves more holy than others.. and end up twisting them to what they were never intended to mean.

I think people need to remember that Jews have practiced these rituals without understanding them, not realizing their fulfillment for 2,000 years now. Now they do! You think that's not a phenomenal event for them? Why can't you just let them do that? Along with others that enjoy learning how those rituals pointed to Christ? I'm sure it's good for everyone involved, unless it's not. lol. Then go somewhere else and worship how you feel led. Okay then! lol.

This is not true.

King david understood. Most of the prophets understood. Some parts of history many jews did. The 12 discipes did. Paul figured it out.

and what do we see about them? not what we see in the churches that ritualise and traditionalise everything. It is a proven fact that repetition of ANYTHING causes the origional meaning and reason to fade away. it becomes going with the flow.

 

[Shiloah]

Again I ask. Would you treat your husband or father this way? if not. Why would you treat your spiritual father or husband this way. God wants more from us., He gets nothing out of your religious tradition and ritual. No more than your husband or father would.

Oh, and also, when it comes to my supernatural Husband, my Lord and my God? I hardly think He has a problem with my celebrating Him in any way I want to, especially when it comes to celebrating with Jews that have come to Him. They're coming to Him proves the fulfillment of prophecy. Obviously, I know many if not most in this modern day will not return to Him, but believe you me, I celebrate every last one of them that does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Any commands God gave His people in the Torah are applicable to us in some way, either physically or spiritually. So As I read them, learn about them and pray about them, I implement them into my life as the Spirit leads.

All of those commands are physical reminders to us of how to live. The old and new covenants don't nulify each other as the Torah wasn't meant for salvation. You can live under the mercy and grace of the salvation of Jesus while still doing the things God told Israel to do in the Torah to live well. Jesus gives us instructions on how to live well spiritually and physically.

Yet God gave MANY commands to Isreal as concerned them on this earth, in the context of them being in their land.

So why would we follow them?

 

[Shiloah]

I do not think you are understanding what I am saying. WHy would I worry about the way they do it? maybe because I want them to see God for who he is, and have an even more fulfilling and powerful relationship with God they will NEVER get by doing those things?

Would you not want that also?

I am not judging anyones salvation. I could only do that induvidually by hearing what they place their faith in..

I am talking about the major dangers of following tradition and ritual. and how damaging it can be. Even if it does not affect everyone in a negative way. History shows for the most part. people doing it never find God, or use this tradition to make themselves more holy than others.. and end up twisting them to what they were never intended to mean.


This is not true.

King david understood. Most of the prophets understood. Some parts of history many jews did. The 12 discipes did. Paul figured it out.

and what do we see about them? not what we see in the churches that ritualise and traditionalise everything. It is a proven fact that repetition of ANYTHING causes the origional meaning and reason to fade away. it becomes going with the flow.

I'm talking generally speaking, and David was a bit before 2,000 years ago? You can't see what I'm saying, so oh well. I still don't get why we can't leave alone what we obviously don't understand, because the only thing we really need to understand is that these people have come to Christ.

You think these people aren't intelligent? You think they won't grow in God? Why would you assume this? If Christ is their Lord, He's the one that will "make them stand."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh, and also, when it comes to my supernatural Husband, my Lord and my God? I hardly think He has a problem with my celebrating Him in any way I want to, especially when it comes to celebrating with Jews that have come to Him. They're coming to Him proves the fulfillment of prophecy. Obviously, I know many if not most in this modern day will not return to Him, but believe you me, I celebrate every last one of them that does.

lol. If you go to church, and continually every week do repetitios things,, He has a major problem with this. they become meaningless.

He wants to be your dad.. Not your imaginary friend you treat as the pagans did their imaginary Gods.

Most of the traditions given the jews concerned them and their land. NOT their relationship with God. They did not get that.

Old things have PASSED away, ALL things have become new. these are the words of our lord in scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh, and also, when it comes to my supernatural Husband, my Lord and my God? I hardly think He has a problem with my celebrating Him in any way I want to, especially when it comes to celebrating with Jews that have come to Him. They're coming to Him proves the fulfillment of prophecy. Obviously, I know many if not most in this modern day will not return to Him, but believe you me, I celebrate every last one of them that does.

concerning prophesy. We have not come close to seieng it fulfilled yet. We have to go through great tribulation. And they have to go through jacob's trouble before prophesy is fulfilled.

Any time any jew gets saved that great. But as paul said. They should see God the new way, not the old way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will be back, I have to run food to a youth group function. But want to continue this discussion.

 

[Shiloah]

lol. If you go to church, and continually every week do repetitios things,, He has a major problem with this. they become meaningless.

He wants to be your dad.. Not your imaginary friend you treat as the pagans did their imaginary Gods.

Most of the traditions given the jews concerned them and their land. NOT their relationship with God. They did not get that.

Old things have PASSED away, ALL things have become new. these are the words of our lord in scripture.

Please read my former post. I edited it. You're assuming they will grow numb to these practices. Leave that up to God? When they grew numb (speaking of Jews as a whole) is when they didn't understand these rituals but continued them. Don't you understand that's why they practice them now? I sure hope none of them are reading this forum. How discouraging to see Christian's trash their choice of worship when they've returned to Christ and we should only be rejoicing because of that.

 

[Shiloah]

Any commands God gave His people in the Torah are applicable to us in some way, either physically or spiritually. So As I read them, learn about them and pray about them, I implement them into my life as the Spirit leads.

All of those commands are physical reminders to us of how to live. The old and new covenants don't nulify each other as the Torah wasn't meant for salvation. You can live under the mercy and grace of the salvation of Jesus while still doing the things God told Israel to do in the Torah to live well. Jesus gives us instructions on how to live well spiritually and physically.

Hurrah. Well said. For some strange reason, I don't believe "one jot or tittle" of God's law was written by accident.

 

[KohenMatt]

There is no more Jew and gentile. Your father is abraham. Not moses..

We are blessed by his seed (christ)

Right, I agree.

No, You were not grafted Into Israel. Isreal was cut off. And you, A Gentile, was grafted in.

Isreal was the natural branch, you the unnatural. The root is God..

The Root is God, and the tree is Israel, as in all of God's people. I arrive at my belief from

Romans 11:25:27 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

You have this ok. The OT helps us understand the new better. But the new covenant is what we shoudl follow. The old points to the new.

And I say that we can follow both at the same time because they don't contradict each other.

 

[Shiloah]

concerning prophesy. We have not come close to seieng it fulfilled yet. We have to go through great tribulation. And they have to go through jacob's trouble before prophesy is fulfilled.

Any time any jew gets saved that great. But as paul said. They should see God the new way, not the old way.

I would say we've come close, for goodness sake. Christ's coming fulfilled the covenant. Certainly we're not done yet. Oh well.

 

[KohenMatt]

hi KohenMatt.
could you define exactly what you mean by Torah?
t.y.

God's Teaching and Instructions found in the Old Testament.

 

[KohenMatt]

Just wanted to.... you know.... enunciate the most important part there...

Right, so that's why I do both.

 

[Grandpa]

How does it not glorify God for Jews to go through these rituals they never understood before and now fully do because they've accepted Christ and recognize Him as their Messiah? What in the world? .

Because the Lord Jesus Christ died so that people wouldn't be bound by their flesh and what their flesh keeps as rituals.

Its an absolute farce to think that what the flesh uses to IGNORE the Lord Jesus Christ is actually glorifying God.

Why do we have to tear down what these people choose to do as a result of their tremendous joy at their recognition of their Lord and Savior? They are doing nothing but celebrating the fulfillment of these rituals. How about we leave them alone? I'm honestly beginning to wonder about most of the Christian world. If we attack Jews when they return to Christ unless they worship exactly like we do, there's something awfully wrong with us.

Going back to fleshly ritual is not a result of the Salvation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is our Deliverer from that yoke of bondage. That is grave error in your thinking. The Roman Catholics are stuck in this same error. I think they got it directly from the hebrews...

Do not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage.

I see this line of thinking a lot though, so it must be a common trap. We go back to the Law out of Love for our God... That's not love for God. That's walking in the darkness.

On a side note, I do think it is really awesome when you can see how the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the feasts, the law, everything in the OT.

But if you don't know that He has fulfilled ALL, if you think you are still under some part of the OT then you don't really understand how the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the feasts, the law and ordinances, but you are still under the yoke of bondage and if you are keeping feasts and such that makes you a practicer of Judaism and not Christianity.

 

[Shiloah]

Because the Lord Jesus Christ died so that people wouldn't be bound by their flesh and what their flesh keeps as rituals.

Its an absolute farce to think that what the flesh uses to IGNORE the Lord Jesus Christ is actually glorifying God.





Going back to fleshly ritual is not a result of the Salvation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is our Deliverer from that yoke of bondage. That is grave error in your thinking. The Roman Catholics are stuck in this same error. I think they got it directly from the hebrews...

Do not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage.

I see this line of thinking a lot though, so it must be a common trap. We go back to the Law out of Love for our God... That's not love for God. That's walking in the darkness.

On a side note, I do think it is really awesome when you can see how the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the feasts, the law, everything in the OT.

But if you don't know that He has fulfilled ALL, if you think you are still under some part of the OT then you don't really understand how the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the feasts, the law and ordinances, but you are still under the yoke of bondage and if you are keeping feasts and such that makes you a practicer of Judaism and not Christianity.

I don't believe you can't understand what I've explained more ways than I even know how. I think I'll just back out of this thread. There's really no other way I can explain.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't believe you can't understand what I've explained more ways than I even know how. I think I'll just back out of this thread. There's really no other way I can explain.

Before you back out help me to understand what it is you actually do. I used to go to a messianic congregation and really liked it; more than any place I've ever been. The different songs and customs were refreshing, and I felt like part of the family. Are you referring to something more than this?

 

[KohenMatt]

i would be interested to get the details on how you keep the Sabbath.
please be as detailed as you can.
it's helpful, since we have so many claiming they do, yet they really don't.

Our family start the Sabbath Friday at sundown. I don't do any work for profit or gain either at my job or around the house. We have special times of prayer and reading over my kids. We go to church Saturday morning which pretty much is an all-day thing (At least 6 hours or so). So we have extra times of worship, study, prayer and fellowship that we don't get during the rest of the week. The Sabbath is a time to rest from my work, my desires, my plans and the things that have weighed heavily on my heart and mind. And instead, I focus on serving others all day physically and spiritually.

how do you keep the feast days?

for example:

Exodus 23
The Three Annual Festivals

14“Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.

15“Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread; for seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

We do a Passover Seder and dinner, which isn't Biblical, but traditional. We go 7 days without anything with yeast or leaven in it, and make a point to eat some kind of unleavened bread every day. I take the sabbath days of rest off for the 1st and last days, and we meet as a church on those days in fellowship.

16“Celebrate the Festival of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field.

This is also called Shavuot, or Pentecost, or the Feast of Firstfruits. We meet together as a church and share the fruit of our lives physically and spiritually, either through testimonies, songs, skits or anything else people feel lead to contribute.

“Celebrate the Festival of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field.

This is my favorite one: Sukkot, Feast of Tabernacles, or the Feast of Booths. This is an 8-day Feast where we camp out in some way either in tents or campers or just sleeping bags. We all camp out on our church property all over the place. We usually hold 1-2 services every day with community meals and lots of activities and events. I've been blessed to take the whole 8 days off.

do you actually grow your own crops?

No, I wish I did. But several people who do grow them bring them.

aren't those feasts to be "kept' in Jerusalem, at the temple, the house of the Lord your God?
do you visit Jerusalem 3 times a year?
there is no temple there, so what do you do instead?

Yes, the instruction is to keep them in Jerusalem, in the Temple, the house of the Lord. Where is God's Temple today? Where is His House?

uh....how do you know your food is kosher?
this is an important question i have pondered.
thanks for answering this one in particular.

As you probably know, there are different standards of Kosher. I don't really care about Rabbinical Kosher and having my food blessed by a Rabbi. I don't consider the dairy/meat regulations as important or valid.

But I don't eat pork or shellfish at all. I make sure that any meat we do eat has had its blood let out as much as possible.

A few other Torah-based commandments I follow:
Tzit-Tzit's
Instructions on personal and marital cleanliness (please don't ask me to get into those. They're a bit akward to talk about in mixed company )
And honestly, the majority of the physical Torah isn't too applicable to me because of how and where I live today. But I've found there is a profound spiritual application in every single one of Torah commandments. And those ones I am diligent to keep as God shows them to me.

I think that's the beauty of the Old Testament that many people miss out on, and that I certainly didn't see for a long time. Every command by God was meant to point Israel's focus back to God physically and spiritually. There is an amazing amount of life and revelation in each word and in each command.

Thanks for giving me the chance to share!
Matt

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Root is God, and the tree is Israel, as in all of God's people. I arrive at my belief from

This is a common misconception.

The branch was Isreal. They were cut off. Gentiles were grafted in.. The tree is no Isreal. The tree is a mix of Isreal and gentile. Christ is the root, which is the important part.

Many people were saved before Isreal was even formed. Abraham was a gentile. As was noah and many others.. Try not to read so much into stuff.

Romans 11:25:27 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

This is a future prophesy not yet fulfilled.

All Isreal is Israel. No gentile is included in this. The covenant is the covenant that Isreal would be gods representative here on earth Ihad nothing to do with salvation)

Study this a little more. Romans 11 is contexted about the difference between Isreal (saved and unsaved, Blind and the remnant) and Gentiles.

And I say that we can follow both at the same time because they don't contradict each other.

lol. Yet some were not MEANT for us. And some are already done away with, because they served their function!