2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?
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Not at the return nowhere in 1 Cor 15 doies it say at the return the context here is about the Corinthians ans any of us that do not beleive in the resurrection. And by the resurrectionis where new life is recieved in the Spirit of God
[h=3]Romans 6:1-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[h=3]Romans 6:1-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You know the Bible speaks of 2 ressurections. You know it!. You know that the entire Christian world is looking for the return of Jesus. You know that. Jesus is coming with His angels to collect His saints and they shall meet Him in the air. (1 Thess 4:13-17). Nowhere in scripture does it say Jesus is also transporting a bunch of (spirits) to re-unite them with there dead bodies. It just isn't there. And nobody can find any scripture suggesting such nonsense.
When Jesus comes here the 2nd time (He has been here once) He will collect the saints and that is it. The Wicked living will be killed by the brightness of His Coming. The wicked that are in their graves, will remain dead, for 1000 years. Satan and his demons will be the only beings left alive on this planet for 1000 years. Satan will have nobody to tempt during that time. The Saints are going to heaven with Jesus, for 1000 years.
"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." Jeremiah 25:33
"I beheld, and lo, there was no man." Jeremiah 4:25
Jesus is in the Sanctuary, right now, making intercession on our behalf. He is acting as our High Priest, right now!
And soon the last name from the Book of Life will be blotted out. When that happens,, Jesus is done acting as our High Priest. Probation will close and the cases or every soul will remain as it is! Jesus will then remove His Priestly Garments and put on His garments of war. Then, He's coming back. And that is known as the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Great for some, and terrible for the rest!
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is rightous, let him be rightous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." Rev 22:11
A whole bunch of people will have waited too long to repent and turn to Jesus. Probation will end SOON AFTER the Mark is enforced.
I wrote this using my own words. When people just post scripture as their answer, i find it confusing because,,, I have no idea what you believe the scriptures mean that you write down......How could I? Only God can read the heart,, not me.. So,, I like to use my own words, so that folks might know and understand what it is I am conveying. Anybody can post some scripture and hit the "reply" button.
When Jesus comes here the 2nd time (He has been here once) He will collect the saints and that is it. The Wicked living will be killed by the brightness of His Coming. The wicked that are in their graves, will remain dead, for 1000 years. Satan and his demons will be the only beings left alive on this planet for 1000 years. Satan will have nobody to tempt during that time. The Saints are going to heaven with Jesus, for 1000 years.
"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." Jeremiah 25:33
"I beheld, and lo, there was no man." Jeremiah 4:25
Jesus is in the Sanctuary, right now, making intercession on our behalf. He is acting as our High Priest, right now!
And soon the last name from the Book of Life will be blotted out. When that happens,, Jesus is done acting as our High Priest. Probation will close and the cases or every soul will remain as it is! Jesus will then remove His Priestly Garments and put on His garments of war. Then, He's coming back. And that is known as the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Great for some, and terrible for the rest!
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is rightous, let him be rightous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." Rev 22:11
A whole bunch of people will have waited too long to repent and turn to Jesus. Probation will end SOON AFTER the Mark is enforced.
I wrote this using my own words. When people just post scripture as their answer, i find it confusing because,,, I have no idea what you believe the scriptures mean that you write down......How could I? Only God can read the heart,, not me.. So,, I like to use my own words, so that folks might know and understand what it is I am conveying. Anybody can post some scripture and hit the "reply" button.
Absolutely amazing, we all here and all over this earth have free will, to choose what is correct and what is not. You state a great case except how do you explain when Christ went up on the Mount and spoke with hmm let me just post some scripture and hit the reply button
[h=3]The Transfiguration[/h][SUP]28 [/SUP]About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. [SUP]29 [/SUP]As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. [SUP]31 [/SUP]They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. [SUP]33 [/SUP]As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. [SUP]35 [/SUP]A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” [SUP]36 [/SUP]When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
So Alive or dead? I love God through christ bewcasue God first loved me, and just this scripture by itself shows Moses and Elijah alive. So you choos, I have and know by Christ dieing daily I am alive daily to Father and sealed by the Holy Ghost
So I am not here to dispute you or try to conviince anyone, I am just laying out the factsa s scripture shows they are alive
[h=3]The Transfiguration[/h][SUP]28 [/SUP]About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. [SUP]29 [/SUP]As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. [SUP]31 [/SUP]They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. [SUP]33 [/SUP]As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. [SUP]35 [/SUP]A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” [SUP]36 [/SUP]When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
So Alive or dead? I love God through christ bewcasue God first loved me, and just this scripture by itself shows Moses and Elijah alive. So you choos, I have and know by Christ dieing daily I am alive daily to Father and sealed by the Holy Ghost
So I am not here to dispute you or try to conviince anyone, I am just laying out the factsa s scripture shows they are alive
That's a good question and a fair one. I'm glad you asked.
We read in 2 kings 2:11 that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. They searched 3 days and he was not found.
We Know Moses died (Duet 34:7) We know God buried Moses without telling any man exactly where. (Duet 34:6).
We know that God also raised up Moses from the grave! (Jude 9).
Satan claims our body when we die. That is why there was a great contension over the Body of Moses. Satan knows that the Rightous dead are not supposed to be raised until ressurection morning. So he complained to God and a dispute began. But the perogatives of God are His, and God can do whatever He wants. He decided to raise Moses. Nor did He give Satan an answer as to why He raised Moses. Nor does He owe Satan an answer.
I say to you, that both Elijah & Moses are alive!!!! That is why they were seen with Jesus at the Transfiguration!!
Elijah represents those Saints that will be translated to Heaven without ever seeing death. Those alive when Jesu appears.
Moses represents those saints that are to be raised from the Dead at the appearance of Jesus.
Both Moses & Elijah are examples or what I call "prototypes". Neither one of these men are in their graves. They are Alive!
If your body is in the grave, you are not alive in heaven.
If your body is not to be found in the grave. You are alive in heaven.
The body of david is both dead & buried. For David did not ascend into Heaven. "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the Patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried , and his tomb is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29)
"For David did not ascend into the heavens....." (Acts 2:34)
That was a very good question. Thanks.
We read in 2 kings 2:11 that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. They searched 3 days and he was not found.
We Know Moses died (Duet 34:7) We know God buried Moses without telling any man exactly where. (Duet 34:6).
We know that God also raised up Moses from the grave! (Jude 9).
Satan claims our body when we die. That is why there was a great contension over the Body of Moses. Satan knows that the Rightous dead are not supposed to be raised until ressurection morning. So he complained to God and a dispute began. But the perogatives of God are His, and God can do whatever He wants. He decided to raise Moses. Nor did He give Satan an answer as to why He raised Moses. Nor does He owe Satan an answer.
I say to you, that both Elijah & Moses are alive!!!! That is why they were seen with Jesus at the Transfiguration!!
Elijah represents those Saints that will be translated to Heaven without ever seeing death. Those alive when Jesu appears.
Moses represents those saints that are to be raised from the Dead at the appearance of Jesus.
Both Moses & Elijah are examples or what I call "prototypes". Neither one of these men are in their graves. They are Alive!
If your body is in the grave, you are not alive in heaven.
If your body is not to be found in the grave. You are alive in heaven.
The body of david is both dead & buried. For David did not ascend into Heaven. "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the Patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried , and his tomb is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29)
"For David did not ascend into the heavens....." (Acts 2:34)
That was a very good question. Thanks.
J
the idea that the soul is immortal originated with satan in the garden of eden when he mocked God saying did He really say that you would die and then telling her a lie in direct opposition to what God had clearly said by saying to her you will not die and added this lie to it you will be like God (i e immortal) AND will have the knowledge of good and evil. these lies go together satan said God lied to you...... listen to me and you will become a god. you will be immortal. you will know all things.
but God said if you eat it or even touch it you will become subject to death....you will cease to exist.
but God said if you eat it or even touch it you will become subject to death....you will cease to exist.
L
The text clearly says at the last trump, so when is the last trump?
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Now why was this the case?
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Because it was a vision, not reality.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Now why was this the case?
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Because it was a vision, not reality.
I don't mean to sound corrective here but it actually speaks of three resurrections...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The phrase "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." is a parenthetical thought. There is the first resurrection at the return of Christ. Then we have...
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
In which the books (all 66 of 'em) are opened. They are closed to most currently...
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Even the disciples had to have their mind opened...
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
These folks finally get their chance.
And lastly we have the third resurrection...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Christ spoke of this resurrection here...
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The phrase "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." is a parenthetical thought. There is the first resurrection at the return of Christ. Then we have...
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
In which the books (all 66 of 'em) are opened. They are closed to most currently...
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Even the disciples had to have their mind opened...
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
These folks finally get their chance.
And lastly we have the third resurrection...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Christ spoke of this resurrection here...
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
D
John, I beg to differ. The transfiguration was not a vision. The greek word translated into the word vision can mean vision or a spectacular sight, a spectacle. Now look at what the bible says:
Note that as they looked on Jesus he Transfigured before their eyes. No mention of a vison!
Here again is the perfect opportunity to mention this is a vision but it is not stated at all.
Now if this was a vision, why would Peter want to build three tents for them? You do not make tents for visions of people. In Luke 9 there is no mention of the word vision at all.
The word Vision does appear in the KJV in Matt. 17:9 Here is what STrong's says about the Greek word for vision in this verse.
The definition can be a spiritual vision or it can be an amazing sight. The context reveals to us which one it is. Also the word vision is not listed in the other account of the transfiguration, because it was not just a spiritual vision!
By all means if I made a mistake, please feel free to correct me. But,, I only see 2 main ressurections. And John 5:29 which you quoted, mentions both groups good and evil. The ressurection of both will occur at separate times. Those who are saved, will be raised when Jesus comes, and we, who are alive will join with them and rise to meet Jesus in the air.
The wicked living are killed when Jesus comes. They won't be able to stand the sight of Him. While Jesus walked the earth, He was clothed in the garb of Humanity. Nobody would be able to stand and live in the presence of Jesus, had not His Divinity been hidden! The only People that will be able to "stand" when Jesus comes are the Redeemed!
"For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to 'stand'?" (Revelation 6:17)
The books you mentioned are books that are in heaven. Not the Bible (66 books). These are books of the recording angels that mark everything that we do during our lives. Every idle word is there.. A complete and accurate record of each and every one of our lives exists in these books in heaven. Also the Book of Life is there. Oh,, by the way,, God doesn't need any of these books.. The books are for others, so that they may examine and see that God is Just & Rightous in His dealing with His Creation. Afterall,, folks are going to have questions as to why somebody didn't get saved. All may examine the records. God will prove to every group that He is Just. Every knee shall bow and admit Jesus is Lord and that God is just in His dealing with sin & sinners.
The great white throne judgment:
It's quite a bit to understand, but basically,, the work of the redeemed in heaven will be judging the wicked as well as judging wicked angels. The wicked humans will be dead on earth while we are in heaven judging their cases. We will also examine the cases of every wicked angel. Those angels will be stuck on earth with Satan during that period.
"Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?..."
"Do you not know we shall judge angels?..." 1 corithians 6:2,3
So, I got 2 ressurections. And I got Jesus coming 3 times to this earth. He came once and once crucified.. He is coming the 2nd time to get us (The Redeemed), and then we ALL shall return with the Holy City Jerusalem all the Angels, and all the inhabitants of heaven. The earth will be our home forever and ever.
"I Am the alpha and the omega , the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
The wicked living are killed when Jesus comes. They won't be able to stand the sight of Him. While Jesus walked the earth, He was clothed in the garb of Humanity. Nobody would be able to stand and live in the presence of Jesus, had not His Divinity been hidden! The only People that will be able to "stand" when Jesus comes are the Redeemed!
"For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to 'stand'?" (Revelation 6:17)
The books you mentioned are books that are in heaven. Not the Bible (66 books). These are books of the recording angels that mark everything that we do during our lives. Every idle word is there.. A complete and accurate record of each and every one of our lives exists in these books in heaven. Also the Book of Life is there. Oh,, by the way,, God doesn't need any of these books.. The books are for others, so that they may examine and see that God is Just & Rightous in His dealing with His Creation. Afterall,, folks are going to have questions as to why somebody didn't get saved. All may examine the records. God will prove to every group that He is Just. Every knee shall bow and admit Jesus is Lord and that God is just in His dealing with sin & sinners.
The great white throne judgment:
It's quite a bit to understand, but basically,, the work of the redeemed in heaven will be judging the wicked as well as judging wicked angels. The wicked humans will be dead on earth while we are in heaven judging their cases. We will also examine the cases of every wicked angel. Those angels will be stuck on earth with Satan during that period.
"Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?..."
"Do you not know we shall judge angels?..." 1 corithians 6:2,3
So, I got 2 ressurections. And I got Jesus coming 3 times to this earth. He came once and once crucified.. He is coming the 2nd time to get us (The Redeemed), and then we ALL shall return with the Holy City Jerusalem all the Angels, and all the inhabitants of heaven. The earth will be our home forever and ever.
"I Am the alpha and the omega , the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Where is that written? You do error in thinking that all the unsaved will die at the coming of Jesus Christ, this is a false teaching which is not backed up by the Scriptures. Jesus when He returns He will rule all the kings of the Earth. if they will not obey Him, He will cause it not to rain for that country. There are many Scriptures and prophesies that back up that When Jesus returns for His Church, the chosen few. He will then reign on the Earth for a thousand years.. There are Scriptures which teach that sinners and those who do evil will not be able to enter into the New City Jerusalem, That reveals that the sinners are still present in the time of the New City being on the Earth, therefore they, the sinners, where not all killed or destroyed at the coming of Christ. Christ left to prepare a place for us (New City Jerusalem) when He returns, the New City Jerusalem will be with Him. Please read the article God gave me called The Meaning of Life and New Heaven and New Earth for more information on that.
Where do you see that they die? Does not Scriptures teach that they will wail at His coming? Does it not teach all the tribes of the EARTH shall mourn at His coming?
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Those Scriptures teach they shall wail and mourn, it does not teach they shall die or be killed. That is a false doctrine. Granted many evil people shall perish at His coming, But not ALL evil people.
^i^
Where do you see that they die? Does not Scriptures teach that they will wail at His coming? Does it not teach all the tribes of the EARTH shall mourn at His coming?
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Those Scriptures teach they shall wail and mourn, it does not teach they shall die or be killed. That is a false doctrine. Granted many evil people shall perish at His coming, But not ALL evil people.
^i^
Greetings,, I have a scripture for you to read, and then i have one question for now:
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air....."
Why do we meet the Lord "in the air"? If He is coming to live on this earth for the 1000 year reign,, why are the saved, both the Righteous dead and the Righteous living going to rise up into the clouds and meet the Lord "in the air"?
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air....."
Why do we meet the Lord "in the air"? If He is coming to live on this earth for the 1000 year reign,, why are the saved, both the Righteous dead and the Righteous living going to rise up into the clouds and meet the Lord "in the air"?
Reminder: these have been on the table since post #2, and have not been addressed from "what the Bible actually says:"
1) First, we see a living (immortal) spirit returning to its body in Lk 8:55.
2) Then there is what Jesus said:
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing with each other?
Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.
So what did not die, and what did die?
Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."
So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?
3) We find the same thing in the epistles:
1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."
Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?
Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."
Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."
Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.
Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.
So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?
Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."
The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.
These ten NT Scriptures and their questions, which were presented in post #2, are still on the table unaddressed.
And that is because this false theology cannot address them.
1) First, we see a living (immortal) spirit returning to its body in Lk 8:55.
2) Then there is what Jesus said:
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing with each other?
Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.
So what did not die, and what did die?
Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."
So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?
3) We find the same thing in the epistles:
1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."
Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?
Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."
Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."
Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.
Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.
So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?
Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."
The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.
These ten NT Scriptures and their questions, which were presented in post #2, are still on the table unaddressed.
And that is because this false theology cannot address them.
They might be on your table, but not mine. I've addressed them before, but, I shall do it again:
Elin, you are the one that keeps inserting the word "Immortal". It's not in the scripture. You KEEP making stuff up and then deciding it's a fact.
Let's look at Luke 8:55:
"Then her spirit returned and she arose immediately." Where did her "spirit" return from?
The Bible says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit return unto God who gave it." Eccleastes 12:7
What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
The Bible says: "The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26.
"The spirit of God [the breath which God gave him] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Elin, The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in the Bible does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
So,, 1 is off the table,, at least it's off mine.
Number 2.
Elin, Jesus taught parables. Parables are teaching tools.
You have decided that the begger, lazarus, abraham story is real. And it is not.
The bible says the dead know nothing. "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." That teaching is from the Bible and it certainly coincides with my point that the story is a parable.
The parable has them talking and communicating.. Eccleastes 9:5,6,10,,, says this:
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love , and their hatred, and there envy is now perished; neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything done under the sun."
"There is no work, nor device. nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave..."
The bible says the dead know absolutely nothing!!!!
"So man lieth down and riseth not; til the heavens be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep."
"His sons come to honor him and he know it not."
So,, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing! They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)
So,, you are going to have to toss and ignore a whole bunch of scriptures if you want to make the "spirit" have life unto itself.
Under my theology (not mine, Gods) everything fits perfectly.
Not to mention: Do you really think that if somebody dipped their finger in some water and touched it on sombody's tongue in some flames they would somehow bring relief?
Can Abraham have mercy on the wicked by sending someone with a water cooled finger? Elin,, seriously, must we continue?
Number 2 is off the table..
Because your premise is wrong the rest of your thelogy just doesn't fit!
Elin, you are the one that keeps inserting the word "Immortal". It's not in the scripture. You KEEP making stuff up and then deciding it's a fact.
Let's look at Luke 8:55:
"Then her spirit returned and she arose immediately." Where did her "spirit" return from?
The Bible says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit return unto God who gave it." Eccleastes 12:7
What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
The Bible says: "The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26.
"The spirit of God [the breath which God gave him] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Elin, The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in the Bible does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
So,, 1 is off the table,, at least it's off mine.
Number 2.
Elin, Jesus taught parables. Parables are teaching tools.
You have decided that the begger, lazarus, abraham story is real. And it is not.
The bible says the dead know nothing. "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." That teaching is from the Bible and it certainly coincides with my point that the story is a parable.
The parable has them talking and communicating.. Eccleastes 9:5,6,10,,, says this:
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love , and their hatred, and there envy is now perished; neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything done under the sun."
"There is no work, nor device. nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave..."
The bible says the dead know absolutely nothing!!!!
"So man lieth down and riseth not; til the heavens be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep."
"His sons come to honor him and he know it not."
So,, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing! They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)
So,, you are going to have to toss and ignore a whole bunch of scriptures if you want to make the "spirit" have life unto itself.
Under my theology (not mine, Gods) everything fits perfectly.
Not to mention: Do you really think that if somebody dipped their finger in some water and touched it on sombody's tongue in some flames they would somehow bring relief?
Can Abraham have mercy on the wicked by sending someone with a water cooled finger? Elin,, seriously, must we continue?
Number 2 is off the table..
Because your premise is wrong the rest of your thelogy just doesn't fit!
Contrare!
You have nowhere addressed all 10 Scriptures presented.
Not according to the meaning of the Hebrew and the Greek words used.
The "spirit" (Heb: ruach) is not the "breath (Heb: nishma) of life" in Hebrew.
You misuse "spirit" to mean "breath of life."
The "spirit" (Gr: pneuma) which returned to the girl in Lk 8:55 is not the "breath (Gr: pnoe) of life" in Greek.
Your theology is built on a false use of the original languages.
You have not addressed Lk 8:55 because you are using the wrong meaning of the Greek word pneuma.
Jesus does not agree that the dead know nothing.
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
You have not addressed Mt 22:31-32.
The only thing to be tossed and ignored is your misuse of the Hebrew and Greek words used.
And again, you fail to address the following 10 Scriptures:
1) First, we see a living (immortal) spirit returning to its body in Lk 8:55.
2) Then there is what Jesus said:
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing with each other?
Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.
So what did not die, and what did die?
Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."
So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?
3) We find the same thing in the epistles:
1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."
Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?
Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."
Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."
Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.
Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.
So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?
Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."
The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.
These 10 NT Scriptures and their questions, which were presented in post #2, are still on the table unaddressed.
And that is because your false theology cannot address them.
You have nowhere addressed all 10 Scriptures presented.
Not according to the meaning of the Hebrew and the Greek words used.
The "spirit" (Heb: ruach) is not the "breath (Heb: nishma) of life" in Hebrew.
You misuse "spirit" to mean "breath of life."
The "spirit" (Gr: pneuma) which returned to the girl in Lk 8:55 is not the "breath (Gr: pnoe) of life" in Greek.
Your theology is built on a false use of the original languages.
You have not addressed Lk 8:55 because you are using the wrong meaning of the Greek word pneuma.
Jesus does not agree that the dead know nothing.
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
You have not addressed Mt 22:31-32.
The only thing to be tossed and ignored is your misuse of the Hebrew and Greek words used.
And again, you fail to address the following 10 Scriptures:
1) First, we see a living (immortal) spirit returning to its body in Lk 8:55.
2) Then there is what Jesus said:
Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?
Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing with each other?
Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.
So what did not die, and what did die?
Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."
So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?
3) We find the same thing in the epistles:
1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."
Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?
Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."
Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."
Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.
Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.
So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?
Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."
The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.
These 10 NT Scriptures and their questions, which were presented in post #2, are still on the table unaddressed.
And that is because your false theology cannot address them.
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S
Lazarus by Jesus was said to be asleep when Jesus told the disciples at first that Lazarus was dead. When the disciples took what He said as literally asleep and said so, Jesus said that no, Lazarus was dead. What part of Lazarus was not dead? That part and how we are preserved is something we cannot possibly understand, but when you put the belief the consciousness of Lazarus was awake and aware beside what Jesus said, it just doesn't work. As scriptures say, "the dead know nothing." Also, Psalms 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
We can't put aside verses such as these when considering these questions. In the new testament, I think we should also remember that when Stephen was stoned, yes, he saw Christ before he died, but then scriptures say he fell asleep, and this was after the resurrection. Whatever part of us is preserved and how we are preserved is something we aren't going to understand because we just plain aren't equipped.
It seems the spirit has everything to do with the breath of life, though that's something we're not going to fully understand at this point either because it's just plain over our heads. Whether or not our thoughts die and our plans die when we die is the question we're trying to address here, and scriptures tell us that our thoughts die, flat. I really suggest everyone carefully listen to the video Nathan 3 posted. It does discuss the belief in hell, but that concept has everything to do with concept of the eternal soul. It takes time and consideration to listen to this video, but it's more than worth the trouble.
I realize I get all worked about these topics at times and respond in anger and sarcasm when I shouldn't, and totally apologize for that. But I care about all this very very much. Christ hasn't finished His good work in me, but that's one thing I'm absolutely confident that He will.
[video=youtube;1iyvlCSNwLg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1iyvlCSNwLg[/video]
We can't put aside verses such as these when considering these questions. In the new testament, I think we should also remember that when Stephen was stoned, yes, he saw Christ before he died, but then scriptures say he fell asleep, and this was after the resurrection. Whatever part of us is preserved and how we are preserved is something we aren't going to understand because we just plain aren't equipped.
It seems the spirit has everything to do with the breath of life, though that's something we're not going to fully understand at this point either because it's just plain over our heads. Whether or not our thoughts die and our plans die when we die is the question we're trying to address here, and scriptures tell us that our thoughts die, flat. I really suggest everyone carefully listen to the video Nathan 3 posted. It does discuss the belief in hell, but that concept has everything to do with concept of the eternal soul. It takes time and consideration to listen to this video, but it's more than worth the trouble.
I realize I get all worked about these topics at times and respond in anger and sarcasm when I shouldn't, and totally apologize for that. But I care about all this very very much. Christ hasn't finished His good work in me, but that's one thing I'm absolutely confident that He will.
[video=youtube;1iyvlCSNwLg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1iyvlCSNwLg[/video]
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