Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[Laodicea]

please explain your point....

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word spirit in this verse is also translated as:-
Wind
Breath
Mind
Blast
Air

Because spirit is also translated into these words the it could also read the breath shall return unto God who gave it.


We cannot take just one part. We must study all as a whole.

 

[danschance]

Seventh day adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses both love to point to old and new testament scriptures that refer to "sleeping" as proof there is no spirit that survives death. Sleep in the old and new testaments is nothing more than a euphemism for sleep. Below are several websites which prove this.

Sleep as Euphemism for Death (Forerunner Commentary) :: Bible Tools

Sleep as a Euphemism for Death.

Sleep as a metaphor for Death proves life after death

If someone has an issue clicking on links, I will be happy to post some of the scriptures that prove "sleep" is a euphemism for death.

 

[danschance]

i'm sorry...i know that this post was not directed at me but (on behalf of danschance) i take offense to this post.

Thankx ♥
It's ok tho', She is just angry with me because I should her the truth of who Ellen G White really is. Most SDA'er are only aware of a white washed version of EGW.

 

[Laodicea]

Now I would like you to do something for me. Whether or not you agree with my interpretation of these passages that you posted I would like to point out that I have answered them. Now I ask that you return the favor and see if you can answer these two verses.

1) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8

2) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil. 1:21

I have answered your post, would you please answer mine?

It is nice to see you being polite, and yes you did take the time to respond even though I do not agree. We must remember it is not our job to convince each other only God can convict. We can just present the truth as we see it then leave it to God. To answer 1 Cor 5:8 I will go to the start of the chapter.
2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJV
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

These verses Paul is talking about the fact that we have house (body) in the heavens. We cannot go to heaven with the body we have now we need a glorified body as Christ had after the resurrection. The question is when do we receive the eternal house(body)
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

According to these verses we are given an eternal house at the return of Christ. With that in mind let us read again the verse.
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We cannot be present with the Lord in this corruptible body, we need a new body which we are given when Jesus returns.

Philippians 1:20-21 KJV
(20) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
(21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

According to the context it is about magnifying Christ so whether he lives or dies Christ shall be magnified. With all the martyrs Christ was magnified and more gave their life to Christ as a result.

 

[danschance]

So how is death gain if according to SDA theology, death is a cessation of thought, existence and annihilation of consciousness?


Paul says in 2 cor 5:8 that "absent from the body" but what is absent from the body if we do not have something that survives death? According to SDA theology nothing survives death.

 

[Laodicea]

God keeps the software so that when He returns we are given new hardware and He puts the software in. God can do all things. Even though we are dead and do not know anything when He returns and gives us new bodies, our thoughts continue from where they left off, just like sleeping. We will not notice any passing of time in death.

Read Acts 2 Peter said David is still in the grave he is not in heaven Even though David may be dead for 3000 years to him it will be but a moment.

 

[Michael50]

So how is death gain if according to SDA theology, death is a cessation of thought, existence and annihilation of consciousness?


Paul says in 2 cor 5:8 that "absent from the body" but what is absent from the body if we do not have something that survives death? According to SDA theology nothing survives death.

When you are sleeping and you suddenly awake, usually, we are disoriented and the first thing many of us do, is look to see what time it is. So it is with death.

When we die, we don't know how long we are dead. Dead people have no conception of time passed. Even if you have been dead for 4000 years,, you have no clue you have been dead that long.

So, while living, paul says Christ is living through him. And when Paul dies, the very next thing that he will know, is that he is with Jesus! The time between our deaths and our ressurection will only seem as if it is a "moment". Because, the "dead know not anything".

Hope this helps.

 

[danschance]

There is a huge difference between being dead and asleep. We dream when we are asleep.

Jesus gave us the answer to this question. He told us a story of two men, a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side" Luke 16:22

This proves you are incorrect. When we die we will go to one of two places.

 

[danschance]

When you are sleeping and you suddenly awake, usually, we are disoriented and the first thing many of us do, is look to see what time it is. So it is with death.

When we die, we don't know how long we are dead. Dead people have no conception of time passed. Even if you have been dead for 4000 years,, you have no clue you have been dead that long.

So, while living, paul says Christ is living through him. And when Paul dies, the very next thing that he will know, is that he is with Jesus! The time between our deaths and our ressurection will only seem as if it is a "moment". Because, the "dead know not anything".

Hope this helps.

Keep in mind this passage never mentions sleep. In the bible they use the word sleep as a euphemism of death.

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep....So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". John 11:11,14

Hope this helps.

 

[Michael50]

Keep in mind this passage never mentions sleep. In the bible they use the word sleep as a euphemism of death.



Hope this helps.

I see no reason in bantering with you. I simply am trying to explain a concept that you obviously do not understand. Jesus is the ONE that refers to death as a sleep! Your disagreement is with Him. Jesus KNOWS that EVERYBODY will be ressurected, both the Rightous & the Wicked. That is why Jesus refers to death as a "sleep".

Jesus also said "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it." And all the people said how is He gonna build a temple that took so long to build? So, your mindset is the same.

It seems to me that you are bent on believing that life continues after death. All one has to do is read a local obituaries and you will see that such a high percentage of people, think that their dead loved ones are in heaven. "Bill Smith went to join his wife in heaven today...." Folks like things that comforts us,, and what more comforting than to know (or think you know) that your dead loved one is up in heaven watching over you and guiding you and protecting you... Many folks beleive these things.

Ressurection Day is going to be exciting,, all the Saints look forward to that Great Day of the Coming of Jesus! If you are already alive and in Heaven,, what's the big deal coming back here to have a body raised? It seems to me that the joy of ressurection day is seeing Jesus in the clouds Coming with Great Power and Glory! Not only will I see Jesus face to face, but also I will be reunited with all my freinds and family that also Repented and claimed Jesus as Savior! If I am to be reunited when I die,, I see no big deal about coming back here to "Pick up" a body. I guess at that point, my question would be,, "Hey Jesus,,, why do we have to come back here to get our dead bodies out of the grave, just so you can make us new eternal immortal body like the one you have now? Couldn't you have made us New Eternal, Immortal Bodies when we first died and came here????? What's the point?"
Dan,,when I say "hope this hel[ps" I'm sincere. Are you?

 

[Laodicea]

According to Matthew 24 and other verses people are carried by angels to Christ at the second coming of Christ for Matthew 24 says He shall send forth His angels to gather His elect.

 

[Laodicea]

So in the parable where the beggar is carried by angels that is the second coming and even if it were real and not a patable then Jesus is looking forward to the future.

 

[homwardbound]

I see no reason in bantering with you. I simply am trying to explain a concept that you obviously do not understand. Jesus is the ONE that refers to death as a sleep! Your disagreement is with Him. Jesus KNOWS that EVERYBODY will be ressurected, both the Rightous & the Wicked. That is why Jesus refers to death as a "sleep".

Jesus also said "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it." And all the people said how is He gonna build a temple that took so long to build? So, your mindset is the same.

It seems to me that you are bent on believing that life continues after death. All one has to do is read a local obituaries and you will see that such a high percentage of people, think that their dead loved ones are in heaven. "Bill Smith went to join his wife in heaven today...." Folks like things that comforts us,, and what more comforting than to know (or think you know) that your dead loved one is up in heaven watching over you and guiding you and protecting you... Many folks beleive these things.

Ressurection Day is going to be exciting,, all the Saints look forward to that Great Day of the Coming of Jesus! If you are already alive and in Heaven,, what's the big deal coming back here to have a body raised? It seems to me that the joy of ressurection day is seeing Jesus in the clouds Coming with Great Power and Glory! Not only will I see Jesus face to face, but also I will be reunited with all my freinds and family that also Repented and claimed Jesus as Savior! If I am to be reunited when I die,, I see no big deal about coming back here to "Pick up" a body. I guess at that point, my question would be,, "Hey Jesus,,, why do we have to come back here to get our dead bodies out of the grave, just so you can make us new eternal immortal body like the one you have now? Couldn't you have made us New Eternal, Immortal Bodies when we first died and came here????? What's the point?"
Dan,,when I say "hope this hel[ps" I'm sincere. Are you?

You know either way it goes coming back here to get our new bodies redeemed that were notredeemed while here on earth, or we are just dead as I think you are saying. It is going to be a glorious day as in whichever I enter heaven without body or with
Anyway I can't negate what Jesus said to the thief on the cross Today you will be with me in paradise. The dead can't live or be in Paradise, only the living now since Christ said this then this thief is alive. Not only that what about all those graves that the dead came out of whne he gave up the ghost, Sounds to me the dead starting living oin that day, but whatever the second coming or what and however when this earth ends, is going to be a: words can't explain it beyond understanding just like the peace one recieves from God and the righteousness that one recieves is beyond words

 

[Laodicea]

If people are already in heaven after they die then why is there going to be a resurrection when Jesus returns?

 

[Michael50]

You know either way it goes coming back here to get our new bodies redeemed that were notredeemed while here on earth, or we are just dead as I think you are saying. It is going to be a glorious day as in whichever I enter heaven without body or with
Anyway I can't negate what Jesus said to the thief on the cross Today you will be with me in paradise. The dead can't live or be in Paradise, only the living now since Christ said this then this thief is alive. Not only that what about all those graves that the dead came out of whne he gave up the ghost, Sounds to me the dead starting living oin that day, but whatever the second coming or what and however when this earth ends, is going to be a: words can't explain it beyond understanding just like the peace one recieves from God and the righteousness that one recieves is beyond words

About the Thief on a cross next to Jesus:

Scripture is indeed inspired, but not Punctuation. The scripture in question is Luke 23:43.

Notice the "comma" between the words "you" and "today'. Here we see just how powerful a comma can be! In this instance it seems to be powerful enough to give life at death. At that is not the case.

This is wrong> "Verily, I say to you , TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise."

This is correct> "Verily, I say to you TODAY, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Now we know that Jesus didn't ascend to His Father the day He died. After He was raised He said to mary,, "Do not cling to Me, I have not yet ascended to My Father, but go to My Brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My father and to your Father and to My God and to your God."

Christs kingdom is set up at His second Coming. (Matthew 25:11). All the rightous of all the ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

If people are already in heaven after they die then why is there going to be a resurrection when Jesus returns?

because we need to have bodies in order to be 'complete' as God designed us...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

This is wrong> "Verily, I say to you , TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise."

This is correct> "Verily, I say to you TODAY, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

except we have no examples of jesus -ever- saying 'verily i say to you today' at any other time...the simple fact is that jesus didn't talk that way...

on the other hand there are -many- examples of jesus saying 'verily i say to you'...

 

[Laodicea]

because we need to have bodies in order to be 'complete' as God designed us...

So you are saying that people have died gone to heaven lived with God for thousands of years without a body and all of a sudden cant live without a body? That in contradictory. Where in the Bible does it say all that? That people in heaven are not complete? It is all based on opinion.

 

[Laodicea]

except we have no examples of jesus -ever- saying 'verily i say to you today' at any other time...the simple fact is that jesus didn't talk that way...

on the other hand there are -many- examples of jesus saying 'verily i say to you'...

So do you accept or reject the fact that there was no punctuation in the original? Do you accept the fact that the translatore put puncuation in?

 

[Laodicea]

*[[1Co 15:53-54]] KJV* %v 53% For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. %v 54% So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

These texts are clear we are given immortality at the return of Christ not at death. To say we have an immortal concious souk after death is teaching against these clear Bible texts.