The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What do you mean when you say, 'spirit' of the law?

An example is the priests who worked on the sabbath, and in doing so profaned the sabbath. They broke the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, and were therefore considered blameless. The whole purpose of the sabbath was to be a sign to Israel that GOD was the one sanctifying them. The letter of the law was to not do any servile work, but the spirit was to acknowledge and submit to GOD's sanctification. That is why the priests were considered blameless, as well as the disciples who were serving Jesus.

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Matthew 12:5-8
​

 

[just-me]

Good analogy sir! I think I see what you are getting at. But since I don't know for certain, to answer your question, I would say, yes, I do think the country would have been better off, because it most likely would have promoted right judgments, but I really don't know the correct answer.

When I speak about laws, I see them as a deterrent of crime. The Mosaic law is in 3 parts Levitical, that Jesus completely fulfilled, the moral concerning love of God and our brothers, and the consequence of breaking the 2nd. If we were to abide by the moral part that we are responsible for, in truth, as it was first given, (the moral persuasions thereof), we not only would be in the will of God as a nation, but also be knit together in brotherly love and respect. And our nation wouldn't be in the critical mess that it is in today. If we were a nation under God, such as our pledge to the flag depicts, why would our churches teach against the moral aspect of the Mosaic law? Here is scripture that will complement what I'm saying:

1 Samuel 15:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Leviticus 19:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

 

[just-me]

Re: The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification
See post #258

So this is a loaded statement that puts the same thing at odds with one another in my mind. The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification. Faith in God and the three aspects which I mentioned above, is righteous. That's God's righteousness toward us. Faith in that righteousness through Jesus Christ justifies us. So God gave the law and He didn't give us anything unrighteous. As Christians it should be our heart's desire to reciprocate by faith to His righteousness, including the Mosaic Law in the proper context as God intended through Christ Jesus.

John 14:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If Jesus created all things as mentioned in Colossians 1:16 (KJV) The principalities concern His law.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

If all things were created by Him and for Him, there is as much gravity to the Mosaic law today (in the Spirit of understanding) as there always has been.

 

[Hoffco]

In reply to just-me 's great post and his question, "why" . My answer is: Preachers today are teaching a false "faith only" gospel of carnal Christianity. which does not save.
The fundamental church today is a cult of easy believeism. A.W, Tozer condemned this 60 yrs ago. I recommend his book, None dare can it heresy. If you look up Pastor Albert Martin, sermons, Trinity Baptist Church , Montsville N.J. as a great resource for good Gospel preaching. God bless you all, Hoffco, God bless you all

 

[Hoffco]

to Skinski7, thanks for you opinion on the old Baptist confession. 1669 or 1689 ? I don't recall exact dates. But your answer is very revealing as to you theological position. You condemn both the Westminster and the Baptist conf.s of old. You rightly say, "they are both about equal." this is a good analysis. I think they are both the best presentation of salvation in all of church history. Of course . I would say, mine is the best. LOL, as all "humble " preachers would say, having to be honest and meek. LOL God bless. Hoffco

 

[know1]

An example is the priests who worked on the sabbath, and in doing so profaned the sabbath. They broke the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, and were therefore considered blameless. The whole purpose of the sabbath was to be a sign to Israel that GOD was the one sanctifying them. The letter of the law was to not do any servile work, but the spirit was to acknowledge and submit to GOD's sanctification. That is why the priests were considered blameless, as well as the disciples who were serving Jesus.

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Matthew 12:5-8
​

Thank you sir, I understand what you are saying now.

 

[zone]

Just a question concerning the law, not the Mosaic law but the law of our founding fathers in America. Do you think that our country would be better off if we would have kept that law, that was patterned after the Bible law in many respects. I'm not saying that this would make believers in Christ Jesus, just asking about enforcing the law and not legislating corruption like we have been doing for the last few decades. You may think that this question doesn't apply to the subject at hand, but I'm trying to lay a foundation to clarify an answer to the original question of this thread.

there are varying opinions on that.
on all of it.

.....


Jewish Roots of the American Constitution

by Prof. Paul Eidelberg

Introduction

The Republic prescribed by the American Constitution is the longest lasting free government in history. America saved Europe from tyranny three times in the twentieth century, and today it is the only solid bastion of freedom against totalitarian Islam.

What is not generally known, however, is that the American Constitution was rooted in ethical and political principles whose source is none other than the Torah, the Five Books of Moses. Protestant social revolutionary reformers, especially the Puritans of New England, saw in the Torah models for modern government. The Puritans adopted or adapted Torah principles and values in organizing their own colonial governments. Many New England divines agreed with Harvard President Samuel Langdon, who said, in his 1775 election sermon: 'the Jewish government, if considered merely in a civil view, was a perfect republic.' Yale President Rev. Ezra Stiles, who conversed with rabbis, apparently agreed with Langdon that the American Constitution was based on the Ten Commandments.

A. Historical Background

Although many of the framers of the American Constitution were not devout, their political mentality was shaped in universities whose curriculum was based very much on Jewish ideas. Accordingly, this essay will be divided into two parts. The first part will show how Judaism, in particular the Five Books of Moses, influenced higher education in 17th and 18th century America. The second part will examine the institutions prescribed in the American Constitution and show their roots in Jewish laws and principles.

1. No nation has been more profoundly influenced by the "Old Testament" than America. Many of America's early statesmen and educators were schooled in Hebraic civilization. The second president of the United States, John Adams, a Harvard graduate, had this to say of the Jewish people:

"The Jews have done more to civilize men than any other nation.... They are the most glorious Nation that ever inhabited the earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of Mankind more, and more happily than any other Nation, ancient or modern."[ii]

2. The curriculum at Harvard, like those of other early American colleges and universities, was designed by learned and liberal men of "Old Testament" persuasion. Harvard president Increase Mather (1685-1701) was an ardent Hebraist (as were his predecessors, Henry Dunster and Charles Chauncey). Mather's writings contain numerous quotations from the Talmud as well as from the works of Saadia Gaon, Rashi, Maimonides and other classic Jewish commentators.

3. Yale University president Ezra Stiles readily discoursed with visiting rabbinical authorities on the Mishna and Talmud. At his first public commencement at Yale (1781), Stiles delivered an oration on Hebrew literature written originally in Hebrew. Hebrew and the study of Hebraic laws and institutions were an integral part of Yale's as well as of Harvard's curriculum.

4. Much the same may be said of King's College (later Columbia University), William and Mary, Rutgers, Princeton, Dartmouth, and Brown University. Hebrew learning was then deemed a basic element of liberal education. Samuel Johnson, first president of King's College (1754-1763), expressed the intellectual attitude of his age when he referred to Hebrew as "essential to a gentleman's education."

5. This attitude was not merely academic. On May 31, 1775, almost on the eve of the American Revolution, Harvard president Samuel Langdon, addressing the Congress of Massachusetts Bay, declared: "Every nation, has a right to set up over itself any form of government which to it may appear most conducive to its common welfare. The civil polity of Israel is doubtless an excellent general model."

6. The Higher Law doctrine of the Declaration of Independence is rooted in the Torah, which proclaims 'The Laws of Nature and Nature's God,' and appeals to the 'Supreme Judge' and 'Providence.' Even though Jefferson, the principal author of the Declaration, had reservations about the Hebrew Bible, he supported Baptist churches and framed the Declaration with a view to galvanizing a bible-reading public in support of the American Revolution.

7. During the colonial and constitution-making period, the Americans, especially the Puritans, adopted and adapted various Hebraic laws for their own governance. The legislation of New Haven, for example, was based on the premise that "the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses, and as they are a fence to the moral law, being neither ... ceremonial, nor ha[ving] any reference to Canaan, shall ... generally bind all offenders, till they be branched out into particulars hereafter." Thirty-eight of seventy-nine statutes in the New Haven Code of 1665 derived their authority from the Hebrew Bible. The laws of Massachusetts were based on the same premise.

8. The fifteen Capital Laws of New England included the "Seven Noahide Laws" of the Torah, or what may be termed the seven universal laws of morality. Six prohibit idolatry, blasphemy, murder, robbery, adultery, and eating flesh from a living animal, while the seventh requires the establishment of courts of justice. Such courts are obviously essential to any society based on the primacy of reason or persuasion rather than passion or intimidation.

9. The seven universal laws of morality (together with their particular branches) comprised a "genial orthodoxy." This genial orthodoxy transcends whatever social or economic distinctions exist among men: it holds all men equal before the law. By so doing it places constraints on governors and governors alike and thereby habituated Americans to the rule of law. As a further consequence, this ancient Hebraic orthodoxy dissolved or subordinated many ethnic differences among immigrants in the new world. It moderated the demands of various groups, helped coordinate their diverse interests and talents, and thereby contributed to America's growth and prosperity.

10. Now, without minimizing the influence of such philosophers as Locke and Montesquieu on the framers of the American Constitution, America may rightly be deemed the first and only nation that was explicitly founded on the Seven Noahide Laws of the Torah. Indeed, the legislation of the several states comprising the Federal Union embodied these laws, including the prohibitions against blasphemy and adultery, well into the nineteenth century. It should also be noted that the constitutions of eleven of the original thirteen states made provision for religious education. Some even had religious qualifications for office.

11. Strange as it may seem, the Seven Noahide Laws were explicitly incorporated in Public Law 102-14, which established March 26, 1991 as "Education Day"! What presumably saves this Congressional joint resolution from violating the First Amendment is its silence about the Hebraic origin of the Noahide code. Here I must digress for a moment and say a word about the First Amendment.

12. The First Amendment states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion '' This clause is now misunderstood. It was intended not to prevent Congress from enacting laws supportive of religion, but to prohibit Congress from establishing a state or national religion. In his 'Farewell Address,' George Washington declared:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in the exclusion of religious principle."

Incidentally, the theme of Washington's Farewell Address is national unity. National unity, he believed, requires national morality, a precondition of which is religion. Religion and morality counter man's natural inclination to self-indulgence and his tendency to be preoccupied with the immediate gratification of his own desires. Religion and morality foster self-restraint and consideration of others. Far more than secular humanism, religion inspires men with reverence, with deference to wisdom, with concern for posterity. But these ideas are Jewish ideas, rooted in the Seven Noahide Laws.

B. The Institutions Prescribed by the American Constitution

1. The House of Representatives represents 435 districts of the United States, where the people of each district elect one person to represent their views and interests. The idea of district elections is implicit in the Torah. 'Select for yourselves men who are wise, understanding, and known to your tribes and I will appoint them as your leaders' (Deut. 1:13). The word 'election' obviously comes from the word 'elect,' and the 'elect' means men of high intellectual and moral character.

a. Exodus 18:19 states: '... seek out from among all the people men with leadership ability, God-fearing men--men of truth who hate injustice.' Similar qualifications are prescribed in the original constitutions Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. This is what the word 'election' means. It is not a democratic but an aristocratic term!

b. So, each tribe must select the best men to be their representatives. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch comments that 'each tribe (shevet) is to choose out of its own midst men whose character can only be known by their lives [hence whose character] is known only to those who have associated with them.' This is the biblical source of residential requirements for Representatives and Senators in the United States. Also, what is here called a shevet was called a district after the Second Temple.[iii]

c. Moreover, the idea of district elections conforms to the Jewish law of 'agency' (Kiddushin 59a). This law synthesizes the 'delegate' and 'trustee' concept of representation prevalent in the non-Jewish democratic world. Whereas the delegate concept binds a representative to the instructions of his constituents, the trustee concept allows him to judge whether adherence to these instructions, when additional knowledge or new circumstances intervene, will harm his constituents' immediate and/or long-term interests.

d. Finally, it is a principle of Jewish law that 'No legislation should be imposed on the public unless the majority can conform to it' (Avoda Zara 36a). This obviously requires legislators to consider or consult the opinions of their constituents. Hence representative democracy can be readily assimilated to Judaism simply by adding that representatives must be 'men who are wise, and understanding.' This would make for a 'high-toned' or aristocratic democracy, or a universal aristocracy. (Bear in mind that Israel is supposed to be a 'Nation of Kohanim,' [Exodus 19:6] meaning a nation of noblemen.)

2. The Senate. The Senate represents the 50 states of the Federal Union; it therefore represents the Federal principle. But the idea of federalism goes back to the Torah and the twelve tribes. Each tribe had its own distinct identity, its own governor and its own judicial system.

3. The Presidency. Unlike Israel, which has a Plural Executive or Cabinet consisting of a prime minister and other ministers representing different political parties in the Knesset, the United States has a Unitary Executive, namely, the President. Of course, the President has a Cabinet, but its members cannot hold any other office and they are wholly responsible to the President, not to any political party.

a. Now it so happens that a Unitary Executive is a Torah principle! Thus, when Moses told Joshua to consult the elders when he was about to lead the Jews across the Jordan, God countermanded Moses: there can only be one leader in a generation. And if you look at tractate Sanhedrin 8a, you will see that Jewish law opposes collective leadership. Nor is this all.

b. Just as a President of the United States must be a native-born American and not a naturalized citizen, so a king of Israel must be born of a Jewish mother and not a ger [transient sojourner] or convert..

4. The Supreme Court. Just as the American Supreme Court is the final interpreter of the American Constitution, so the Great Sanhedrin is the final interpreter of the Jewish Constitution, the Torah.

So we see that the original American Constitution was very much rooted in Torah Judaism!



This section of this essay is based on Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy (New York: KTAV, 1977).

[ii] Cited in Pathways to the Torah (Jerusalem: Aish HaTorah Publications, 1988), p. A6.2.

[iii] For a detailed analysis of Israel?s political system, see Paul Eidelberg, Jewish Statesmanship: Lest Israel Fall (Ariel Center for Policy Research 2000; University Press of America, 2002). See also Eidelberg, The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Toward a Truly Jewish Israel (Fullerton, CA: Davidson Press, 2007).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think the American form of Gov't is a mix of secular and biblical ideas.

The three branches of the federal gov't (judicial, legislative, executive) are described in Isaiah:

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22
​

 

[know1]

Re: The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification
See post #258

So this is a loaded statement that puts the same thing at odds with one another in my mind. The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification. Faith in God and the three aspects which I mentioned above, is righteous. That's God's righteousness toward us. Faith in that righteousness through Jesus Christ justifies us. So God gave the law and He didn't give us anything unrighteous. As Christians it should be our heart's desire to reciprocate by faith to His righteousness, including the Mosaic Law in the proper context as God intended through Christ Jesus.

John 14:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If Jesus created all things as mentioned in Colossians 1:16 (KJV) The principalities concern His law.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

If all things were created by Him and for Him, there is as much gravity to the Mosaic law today (in the Spirit of understanding) as there always has been.

I apologize for this, but I don't have adequate time to response properly to your post. I will get back with you on this matter though. thanks.

 

[RickShafer]

The Mosaic laws are perfect for a physical nation.
Those who steal have to pay it back 3 times more to those they stole from by either money or working it off (no jail).
- This is a major deterrent to thievery.
Also those who murder are dispatched by the loved ones of the one they killed.
- This is a major deterrent to murder.
In cases of manslaughter there are cities of refuge to which the guilty can flee to and live out their lives. The case is heard by judges of their peers. (This shows the importance of shedding blood from a life made in His image)

Yea, God knows how to run a country.
But people are smarter than Him, so we need these prisons and police to keep the peace because we are so much more learned than Him.

 

[zone]

I think the American form of Gov't is a mix of secular and biblical ideas.

The three branches of the federal gov't (judicial, legislative, executive) are described in Isaiah:

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22
​

ya...it's this part that i find amusing.

i'll post on it, though. it's the eschaton surprise package delivered.
i used to finding it alarming...but nobody cares.
ridiculed as conspiracy theory
meh

i'll look through through my files again.
12 years ago the only stuff you found on it was in the Talmud and Masonic Lodges.
now it's in-your-face.



"10. Now, without minimizing the influence of such philosophers as Locke and Montesquieu on the framers of the American Constitution, America may rightly be deemed the first and only nation that was explicitly founded on the Seven Noahide Laws of the Torah. Indeed, the legislation of the several states comprising the Federal Union embodied these laws, including the prohibitions against blasphemy and adultery, well into the nineteenth century. It should also be noted that the constitutions of eleven of the original thirteen states made provision for religious education. Some even had religious qualifications for office.

11. Strange as it may seem, the Seven Noahide Laws were explicitly incorporated in Public Law 102-14, which established March 26, 1991 as "Education Day"! What presumably saves this Congressional joint resolution from violating the First Amendment is its silence about the Hebraic origin of the Noahide code. Here I must digress for a moment and say a word about the First Amendment."

....

There are in fact Christians who have become tangled in the Hebrew Roots movement, who have have left Christianity and embraced the Noahide movement.

Noahides and Hebrew Roots | Unsettled Christianity

Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the "Law of Moses", because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.

Dual-covenant theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humankind.[2][3]

According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:[6]

The prohibition of Idolatry.
The prohibition of Murder.
The prohibition of Theft.
The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
The prohibition of Blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[7] and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws.

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse".

^ punishment for non-jews who break the Noahide Laws - beheading

night.

 

[RickShafer]

Oh good grief!
Find beheadings in ANY of part of the law. - (Not your nogahide, noatic, phoney-baloney made up law but in the ACTUAL Bible)
You will find ONE instance Zone, - and it's not prescribed for any man, it's for a cow - (a heifer to be exact).

 

[zone]

Oh good grief!
Find beheadings in ANY of part of the law. - (Not your nogahide, noatic, phoney-baloney made up law but in the ACTUAL Bible)
You will find ONE instance Zone, - and it's not prescribed for any man, it's for a cow - (a heifer to be exact).

i never said it came from the Bible.

it's not my nogahide, noatic, phoney-baloney made up law.

that's Talmudic Judaism.

we'll get to it i reckon.
but this time i won't be arguing
you do what you want with it.

night

 

[RickShafer]

The Talmud is not the Mosaic law zone.
It's not in there. (It's not anywhere in the bible) - gee, I wonder why?
Stop believing every wind and breeze of false accusations.
So all these back to Judaic Roots people follow the Talmud?
- You know because you saw it on Wilkipedia?
- - Or some other site that is funded by latent, impotent, impudent followers of the Third Reich?
- - - C'mon!

 

[just-me]

I think the American form of Gov't is a mix of secular and biblical ideas.

The three branches of the federal gov't (judicial, legislative, executive) are described in Isaiah:

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22
​

Very well said. This is why our forefathers set up the tree branches of the United States government I would say. Our 1st continental congress knew the Bible better than most Christians today. At least they saw, and believed that to be free and prosperous, the government that God instructed Israel to have really worked and was a great benefit for God's children.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Our 1st continental congress knew the Bible better than most Christians today.

Bit of trivia per your comment... the secretary to the 1st US congress, Charles Thomson, made the first English translation of the Greek Septuagint. Thomson's Translation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In reply to just-me 's great post and his question, "why" . My answer is: Preachers today are teaching a false "faith only" gospel of carnal Christianity. which does not save.
The fundamental church today is a cult of easy believeism. A.W, Tozer condemned this 60 yrs ago. I recommend his book, None dare can it heresy. If you look up Pastor Albert Martin, sermons, Trinity Baptist Church , Montsville N.J. as a great resource for good Gospel preaching. God bless you all, Hoffco, God bless you all

I keep hearing this over and over. But I never see it./ Does anyone have some examples of these churches? has anyone seen one they can direct to our attention?

This easy believism Gospel is around I have no doubt, But I do not think it is as rampant as people claim. And it is nothing new. James fought it in his epistle. Jude condemned it. Paul faught it, although not as hard, since his attention was dirrected to the legalistic jews trying to add the law to the gospel of Christ.

This is a far more danger, legalism and its works based self boasting Gospel that is taught by so many in the name of Christ. Which not only mocks and defames his work on the cross. leads far more people to hell than easy believism will ever do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the American form of Gov't is a mix of secular and biblical ideas.

The three branches of the federal gov't (judicial, legislative, executive) are described in Isaiah:

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22
​

Interesting.

I think the american govt is a form of the roman govt created by rome during its power, minus the ceasar of course.

 

[just-me]

So to finalize my thoughts. Accordingly, we can all agree that this country was founded upon the principle that our self-governing principles were of the people, by the people, and for the people. Knowing then that most American citizens were church going people, 50 to 100 years ago, the fault lies with the people bringing this country to the point of being non-prosperous with escalating crime. Rhetorically then, what are "we the people" doing wrong, that we continue to see this degradation? Could it be that we are preaching in many of our churches that the Mosaic Law is replaced and extinct, being extinct by the grace of Jesus Christ? Maybe we should reconnoiter and adopt the moral aspects of the law given to Moses, and start teaching, and preaching that the Mosaic Law is valid, and has it's place through Christ Jesus. Here is some scripture that I think could, and should be used from behind the pulpit.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Psalm 72:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Galatians 3:19-21 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 3:24-26 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Considering verse 25, what tool do we have left to bring others to Christ Jesus if we have forsaken it? How many false conversions might there be because of this discrepancy? So the works of the law and works by faith to justification should not be at odds with one another. They should work together hand in hand. Wisdom is what we need. It’s takes education to know that a tomato is really a fruit, but it takes wisdom to know that one doesn’t use it in fruit salad.

 

[just-me]

I keep hearing this over and over. But I never see it./ Does anyone have some examples of these churches? has anyone seen one they can direct to our attention?

This easy believism Gospel is around I have no doubt, But I do not think it is as rampant as people claim. And it is nothing new. James fought it in his epistle. Jude condemned it. Paul faught it, although not as hard, since his attention was dirrected to the legalistic jews trying to add the law to the gospel of Christ.

This is a far more danger, legalism and its works based self boasting Gospel that is taught by so many in the name of Christ. Which not only mocks and defames his work on the cross. leads far more people to hell than easy believism will ever do.

The handwriting is on the wall, the proof is in the pudding. People, get ready because it's coming. How do we know? The Bible tells us so.
Proverbs 1:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.