Dear Starfield,
First let me say that I do not profess to be an expert in all things related to the end times. I am not a pastor or Bible student other than I study the Bible on my own as much as I can. I have studied the "rapture" and tribulation far more than I have the Millennial period. More on that in a moment because I do believe I can answer your question.
For those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture must by necessity also believe that those Raptured are given glorified bodies AND go to heaven to await the Day of the Lord and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth? Is that what you and Chosen or anyone else believe? It is, correct?
So prior to the Rapture there are only souls in heaven with no glorified bodies, right? We see this in Rev 6:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
So we see souls under the alter. I don't know how big the alter is but souls are not that big. In the Pre-Trib view the Rapture would take place where the alive on earth and dead will be raised and given glorified bodies and returned to heaven. Now we would have full sized bodies in the hundreds of millions (potentially) in heaven. They would take up far more space.
See, I don't think the bible teaches that. I think that only souls are allowed in the current heaven. (just as only the souls of the damned go to Hades) I think those who remain through the Trib to the day of the Lord, get their glorified bodies and stay right here on earth and reign with the Lord for the 1,000 years. I think the souls in heaven come down with Christ, their bodies are raised first, then us alive are caught up with them. We then all return together. Paul teaches, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
As for the millennial period and who populates the earth we can look further into Zechariah. The Lord defeats those who rise up against Jerusalem.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
For those who did not actively oppose the Lord and fight against them, they will enter the Millennium as they are. Read further:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Paul further teaches in Hebrews:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Wow. Just killed two birds with that one stone!!! Did you catch that???? "He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." It doesn't say He will appear a second and a third time. To save those who remain and come to Him during the Tribulation, the Lord would have to come a 2nd and 3rd time. Once to Rapture the Church, once to get the new converts. But my friend, this is NOT taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. It is only taught by man who contort the Word of God to support their theory.
So, if you are an unbeliever and make it through the Tribulation, and aren't one of those who are defeated by the Lord when he sets up His kingdom, hope is not lost. Unbelievers can still be saved if they accept the Lord before they die.
To answer question #1. All the Saints with Glorified Bodies and all unbelievers with unglorified bodies.
The Nations Worship the King
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
We've addressed point #2. We meet in the clouds, receive glorified bodies and return with the Lord, all in a very short time frame, the twinkling of an eye.
For Point #3, please read on in Romans 11 and you will see that the Gentile church and Israel are grafted together and become ONE.
First let me say that I do not profess to be an expert in all things related to the end times. I am not a pastor or Bible student other than I study the Bible on my own as much as I can. I have studied the "rapture" and tribulation far more than I have the Millennial period. More on that in a moment because I do believe I can answer your question.
For those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture must by necessity also believe that those Raptured are given glorified bodies AND go to heaven to await the Day of the Lord and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth? Is that what you and Chosen or anyone else believe? It is, correct?
So prior to the Rapture there are only souls in heaven with no glorified bodies, right? We see this in Rev 6:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
So we see souls under the alter. I don't know how big the alter is but souls are not that big. In the Pre-Trib view the Rapture would take place where the alive on earth and dead will be raised and given glorified bodies and returned to heaven. Now we would have full sized bodies in the hundreds of millions (potentially) in heaven. They would take up far more space.
See, I don't think the bible teaches that. I think that only souls are allowed in the current heaven. (just as only the souls of the damned go to Hades) I think those who remain through the Trib to the day of the Lord, get their glorified bodies and stay right here on earth and reign with the Lord for the 1,000 years. I think the souls in heaven come down with Christ, their bodies are raised first, then us alive are caught up with them. We then all return together. Paul teaches, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
As for the millennial period and who populates the earth we can look further into Zechariah. The Lord defeats those who rise up against Jerusalem.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
For those who did not actively oppose the Lord and fight against them, they will enter the Millennium as they are. Read further:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Paul further teaches in Hebrews:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Wow. Just killed two birds with that one stone!!! Did you catch that???? "He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." It doesn't say He will appear a second and a third time. To save those who remain and come to Him during the Tribulation, the Lord would have to come a 2nd and 3rd time. Once to Rapture the Church, once to get the new converts. But my friend, this is NOT taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. It is only taught by man who contort the Word of God to support their theory.
So, if you are an unbeliever and make it through the Tribulation, and aren't one of those who are defeated by the Lord when he sets up His kingdom, hope is not lost. Unbelievers can still be saved if they accept the Lord before they die.
To answer question #1. All the Saints with Glorified Bodies and all unbelievers with unglorified bodies.
The Nations Worship the King
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
We've addressed point #2. We meet in the clouds, receive glorified bodies and return with the Lord, all in a very short time frame, the twinkling of an eye.
For Point #3, please read on in Romans 11 and you will see that the Gentile church and Israel are grafted together and become ONE.
Now in the time of Jacob's trouble, there is no eternal security except for the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. - Revelation 7:1-10 (KJV)
In the time of Jacob's trouble, works are involved to obtain salvation:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:9-12 (KJV)
See, if any man takes the mark of the beast that man is damned. So there is works involed with obtaining salvation.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:7-22 (KJV)
Another problem you have Plain with your post trib rapture theory is that if the rapture took place after the tribulation, then during the time of Jacob's trouble, you would have two groups of people which are sealed.
You would have 1) the sealed Jews (144,000)
And 2) the sealed Christians. Because every saint within the Body of Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Again, read Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30).
So, with your post trib. Rapture theory plain, this is what it would look like:
You would 1) have sealed Jews (144,000) from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
2) Sealed Christians
3) Tribulation Saints
4) And those who take the mark of the beast.
Your theory Plain creates a serious contradiction. Because we Christians are not saved by our works, but we are saved by grace through faith:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:4-7 (KJV)
So let me get this straight plain, are you saying that in the time of Jacob's trouble, that a certain group of people will be saved without works and that another group of people will be saved by faith AND works?
That is basically what your alluding to plain. Your not rightly dividing the word of truth.
This is what it should look like in the time of Jacob's trouble:
You have 1) Tribulation saints, enduring unto the end by not taking the mark of the beast, by keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And 2) The sealed Jews (144,000) from the tribes of Israel.
And then 3) those who have taken the mark of the beast.
Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. And your argument causes a contradiction to occur, because right now we are saved by grace through faith, but in the time of Jacob's trouble, there is an element of works involved with obtaining salvation.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26 (KJV)
See? Works are involved during the time of Jacob's trouble.
So that must mean there is a dispensational difference here.
Also consider this Plain, why would God Almighty pour out His wrath and anger upon the Body of Christ?
And also when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur?
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