Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

ChosenbyHim · Jul 5, 2013

Now in the time of Jacob's trouble, there is no eternal security except for the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. - Revelation 7:1-10 (KJV)

In the time of Jacob's trouble, works are involved to obtain salvation:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:9-12 (KJV)

See, if any man takes the mark of the beast that man is damned. So there is works involed with obtaining salvation.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:7-22 (KJV)

Another problem you have Plain with your post trib rapture theory is that if the rapture took place after the tribulation, then during the time of Jacob's trouble, you would have two groups of people which are sealed.

You would have 1) the sealed Jews (144,000)
And 2) the sealed Christians. Because every saint within the Body of Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Again, read Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30).

So, with your post trib. Rapture theory plain, this is what it would look like:

You would 1) have sealed Jews (144,000) from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

2) Sealed Christians
3) Tribulation Saints
4) And those who take the mark of the beast.

Your theory Plain creates a serious contradiction. Because we Christians are not saved by our works, but we are saved by grace through faith:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:4-7 (KJV)

So let me get this straight plain, are you saying that in the time of Jacob's trouble, that a certain group of people will be saved without works and that another group of people will be saved by faith AND works?

That is basically what your alluding to plain. Your not rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is what it should look like in the time of Jacob's trouble:

You have 1) Tribulation saints, enduring unto the end by not taking the mark of the beast, by keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And 2) The sealed Jews (144,000) from the tribes of Israel.

And then 3) those who have taken the mark of the beast.

Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. And your argument causes a contradiction to occur, because right now we are saved by grace through faith, but in the time of Jacob's trouble, there is an element of works involved with obtaining salvation.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26 (KJV)

See? Works are involved during the time of Jacob's trouble.

So that must mean there is a dispensational difference here.

Also consider this Plain, why would God Almighty pour out His wrath and anger upon the Body of Christ?

And also when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur?

starfield · Jul 5, 2013

PlainWord said:

Thanks for your response.

However, no unbeliever will enter the millennium. This will be the fate of those who receive the mark of the beast...

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So we have a problem here with the Post-Tribulation view. If the unsaved are destroyed and all believers are raptured after the tribulation and enter the millennium with glorified bodies then procreation will not occur during that period. However, there will be children born during that time period (Isaiah 11:8-9, Zech. 8:1-5). Only people in their natural bodies can procreate and they can't be unbelievers so they have to be unraptured saints, i.e. tribulation saints who entered the millennium in their natural bodies. Therefore, church-age believers will be raptured before the tribulation to partake in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Judgment Seat of Christ. The rapture will not occur after the tribulation.

starfield · Jul 5, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Amen!...

ChosenbyHim · Jul 5, 2013

starfield said:

Thanks for your response.

However, no unbeliever will enter the millennium. This will be the fate of those who receive the mark of the beast...

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So we have a problem here with the Post-Tribulation view. If the unsaved are destroyed and all believers are raptured after the tribulation and enter the millennium with glorified bodies then procreation will not occur during that period. However, there will be children born during that time period (Isaiah 11:8-9, Zech. 8:1-5). Only people in their natural bodies can procreate and they can't be unbelievers so they have to be unraptured saints, i.e. tribulation saints who entered the millennium in their natural bodies. Therefore, church-age believers will be raptured before the tribulation to partake in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Judgment Seat of Christ. The rapture will not occur after the tribulation.

Excellent Post and response Starfield

PlainWord · Jul 7, 2013

starfield said:

Starfield and Chosen,

Not so fast. It is far too soon to pat each other on the back. I have not thrown in the towel, not by a far cry, LOL.

You seem to be saying that all the unbelievers are being destroyed by God in Rev 14:19. If that is the case, there would be nobody left to suffer the 7 vials of Rev 16. Clearly, the vials, or bowls, are effecting the unsaved.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. [SUP]11 [/SUP]They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

As you can see, a lot of punishment remains before the end. But it is important to define what the Tribulation period is. Most Pre-Tribbers think the Tribulation starts with the seals and includes all the trumpets and bowls. I see the seals as the "days of sorrows" and that the Tribulation (as judgment from God) begins with the 6th seal. I believe there is no rapture for anyone until after all 7 trumpets. Then I believe the 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation where God is specifically going after the Beast and His kingdom. So to the extent you believe the Bowls only are the Great Tribulation, then I agree, we will not go through the Great Tribulation. But we don't go to heaven.

I want to clarify what I believe and feel is supported by the Word. First, the so called"rapture," happens at the Last Trumpet which is at or right after the 7th trumpet (Which is the last trumpet). I don't believe we go to heaven but rather stay on earth with the Lord as part of His new Kingdom which he declares at the 7th Trumpet.

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[SUP][f][/SUP] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[SUP][h][/SUP] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

To think that you are Raptured before the Tribulation, you have to explain away the following verses plus the passage above.

1 Cor 15

[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2 Thes 2
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luke 21:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

1 Thes 4:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain (ask yourself - remain from what?) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

John 6:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I can never understand how Pre-Tribbers can believe in a rapture that comes before the Tribulation when they don't have one verse that places the time before the tribulation and they see all the verses above that CLEARLY place the rapture After the tribulation. It never ceases to amaze me. I say this with all brotherly love in Christ my dear friends, so please don't be offended. But, please explain how your timing of a Pre-Trib Rapture fits with the above. Do that, and then you can applaud and I will pat you both on the back, lol. Deal??

PlainWord · Jul 7, 2013

Let's discuss Rev 20:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[SUP][a][/SUP] thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

We know that the martyred of the Tribulation period reign with Christ during the 1,000 years but we are told, the rest of the dead do not live again until after the 1,000 years are up. Is this referring to rest of the unbelieving dead, believing dead or all dead?

Note also that John refers to this as the "FIRST" resurrection. This implies that there will be at least a 2nd resurrection because if there is only one, why use the word, "first" instead of just saying, "at the resurrection?"

So let's study the three possibilities:

1. Just the martyred reign during the Millennial Kingdom and all other dead, remain dead until after the 1,000 years. This would mean that the "Last Day" of John 6 is really the last day!! This would also mean that the dead in Christ and not in Christ don't live again until the Great White Throne of Judgment where everyone's fate is decided.

2. All believers are resurrected on the Day of the Lord (At the 7th Trumpet). The Lord gives us all glorified bodies and protects us and we all fight with the Lord against the beast. We all live with the Lord on earth during the Millennium but only the martyrs reign.

3. All dead except the martyred remain dead until after the Millennium. The martyred reign with Christ over all those who make it through the Tribulation, both believers and non-believers. This would mean the Rapture is only a partial rapture of martyred saints. I can't find any other supporting passages for this view.

But as for who goes through the Millennium, clearly the martyred saints and I believe all those alive and remaining through the Tribulation. Zech 14 talks about the nations of the world coming to the kingdom to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Those that don't, receive no rain. So clearly you have unbelieving from the outset.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 7, 2013

PlainWord said:

It is referring to the unbelieving dead because of verse 6 of Revelation 20, we'll start at verse 5 though:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV)

Also Plain, the term First Resurrection has three parts to it. When Jesus Christ arose from the dead, he lead captivity captive and the O.T. Dead Saints resurrected with the Lord Jesus and they appeared unto many:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. - Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)

The next successive phase or next part of the First Resurrection is the Rapture, where the dead in Christ shall be raised first and then we which are alive and remain:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (KJV)

And I believe that the final part or segment to the First Resurrection is described in Rev. 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

PlainWord said:

That cannot be possible Plain, because at the Judgment Seat of Christ, there is a rainbow around the throne of God:

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. - Revelation 20:1-4 (KJV)

You see at Revelation 20:4, the Judgment Seat has already taken place. How do I know? Well because the four and twenty elders are already clothed in white raiment and they already have their gold crowns. Part of the reward system at the Judgment Seat of Christ will be different kind of crowns: crown of righteousness ( 2 Tim.4:8), crown of rejoicing ( 1 Thess. 2:9), crown of glory ( 1 Pe. 5:4), and crown of life (Jas. 1:12). Now the last crown mentioned, the crown of life is kind of debatable, in that I am not sure if that particular crown will be offered at the Judgment Seat of Christ only because the book of James is doctrinally for the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1 (KJV)

One other thing though plain; there is a serious problem with your belief about the Church Age saints which are the dead in Christ being resurrected at the time of the Great White throne Judgment, and here is the issue. If the dead Christians are not resurrected before the time of Jacob's trouble, then that means that we Christians who are currently alive would have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. Why because at the rapture of the Church (the Body of Christ) both the dead Christians and the living Christians are raptured and are given their gloried bodies. In other words, both the dead and the living Christians get their partake in the same event. They both get their gloried bodies:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)

So your reasoning plain, just does not work, it does not line up with the other Scriptures. The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are two different judgments. The Judgment Seat of Christ is in the clouds, and the Great White Throne Judgment is in outer space. It is in outer space because the old earth, heaven, and the elements and works therein have already been burned up with fire and fervent heat:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

And one last thing though Plain, no unsaved person will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Judgment Seat of Christ is a Judgment only for born again believers. The purpose of the Judgment Seat of Christ is to try every man's work by fire. It is to judge the Christian's works, the works he did for the Lord after salvation. And to reward the Christian. That is what the Judgment Seat of Christ is for.

In contrast, at the Great White Throne Judgment, no saved person will stand on trial at that judgment. Now we Christians and saints will be there. We will be in outer space viewing this judgment as it is taking place, but we will not be on trial at that judgment. We will most likely be sitting in the jury section. The only ones who will have to stand before God at that judgment are the lost and damned souls. Every lost sinner that will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment, there fate is already set. It is already determined. They rejected Jesus Christ, so there is no second change for them. The damned souls are going to have their sins and works judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. That way they will see why they are going to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

God is just, and at the end of the Great White Throne Judgment, every lost soul will know exactly and perfectly why they are in the Lake of Fire. And why they will have to spend eternity there.

Please lain, do not get the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment confused. Again, they are two different judgments. Two different locations, and two different outcomes at each of these judgments.

And Plain, please consider my question to you that I asked in my previous post. Why would God Almighty pour out His wrath and fury upon the Body of Christ?

Again Plain, your reasoning and logic regarding the timing of the rapture is seriously flawed. We are not appointed to wrath ( 1 Thess. 5:9).

If you study the Bible, and look at the examples given in the Old Testament, God spared the righteous before He poured down His wrath. Consider the account of Noah ( Gen. 6-9), and Rightoues Lot ( Gen. 19).

ChosenbyHim · Jul 7, 2013

PlainWord said:

Plain, again your reasoning is off here. The 7th trumpet in Revelation 10:7 is the angelic trumpet, it is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets that the angels blow in the time of Jacob's trouble:

10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. - Revelation 20:1-7 (KJV)

Plus, there are other trumpets which are blown at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble and even after the time of Jacob's trouble.

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. - Isaiah 27:12-13 (KJV)

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids. - Zechariah 9:9-17 (KJV)

Hence, this must prove that the angelic seventh trumpet blown in Revelation 10:7 is not the last biblically recorded supernatural trumpet that is to be blown. And this must mean that the trump of God that sounds in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is a unique trumpet appointed to end the Church Age.

PlainWord said:

Plain, it seems that you just contradicted yourself here. At your second point, you said:

"The Lord gives us all glorified bodies and protects us and we all fight with the Lord against the beast."

But now at your third point you said this:

" All dead except the martyred remain dead until after the Millennium."

We only get our glorified bodies at the Rapture. And both the Dead in Christ and the living Christians partake in the Same Rapture.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

So for your statement in point # 3 to be true that would mean that we Christians would have to wait all the way until the end of the Millennial Kingdom for us to get our glorified bodies since the Dead in Christ would not raise until the end of the Millennial Kingdom like you claim. See both the living in Christ and the dead in Christ partake in the Rapture. They both partake in the same event. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture Plain.

The Rapture has to take place before the time of Jacob's trouble.

If the Rapture does not take place before the tribulation like you claim, then when does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occur?

And finally, there is one more problem with one of the statements you made in point#3. This is the your other statement:

"The martyred reign with Christ over all those who make it through the Tribulation, both believers and non-believers."

The problem here is that none of the unbelievers who make it through the tribulation are given access into the Millennial Kingdom. All non-believers are cast into Hell:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

PlainWord said:

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

My comments in red.

ChosenbyHim said:

Plain, again your reasoning is off here. The 7th trumpet in Revelation 10:7 is the angelic trumpet, it is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets that the angels blow in the time of Jacob's trouble: Correct, it is the last trumpet. Show me another trumpet that is the last trumpet, if not this one, which you think Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 15:52.

10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. thunders are not trumpets and we don't get to know what they said, do we?
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. - Revelation 20:1-7 (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. This is Rev 10:7, not 20:7 and it ties perfectly with what I have been saying, the rapture is at the 7th trumpet of revelation. Thanks for proving my point here.
Plus, there are other trumpets which are blown at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble and even after the time of Jacob's trouble. Possibly, but this is well after the Pre-Trib era so does nothing to support your argument for a pre-Trib rapture.

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. - Isaiah 27:12-13 (KJV)
If anything it helps my case because I'm saying the Lord comes at the 7th trumpet, gathers and protects his saints and prepares them for battle. You don't have a last trumpet clearly sounding BEFORE the tribulation. If you do, quote it for me. Quote the verse that CLEARLY shows the timing of the Rapture BEFORE the tribulation, that agrees with Paul stating clearly that it is at the last trumpet and after the man of perdition is revealed. Don't use conjecture to argue against Paul's clear teaching.

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids. - Zechariah 9:9-17 (KJV)

I don't see anything that suggests a rapture here. Do you? I see the Lord defending His people in the end times. I don't see a gathering of saints in the clouds. Read on in Zech to Chapt 13. The Lord allows 2/3 of the population of Israel to die, the remaining 1/3 turn to Him and we (the church) are grafted in with the believing Jews. See Romans 11
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Hence, this must prove that the angelic seventh trumpet blown in Revelation 10:7 is not the last biblically recorded supernatural trumpet that is to be blown. And this must mean that the trump of God that sounds in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is a unique trumpet appointed to end the Church Age. Thanks for proving my point. The Rapture CANNOT occur before the Tribulation. Why are you trying to find trumpets after the 7th trump? I'm not saying there aren't any after the 7th trump but if there are they certainly don't support your position, they support mine. But clearly the Kingdom is declared at the 7th trump Rev 11:15.

Plain, it seems that you just contradicted yourself here. At your second point, you said:

"The Lord gives us all glorified bodies and protects us and we all fight with the Lord against the beast."

But now at your third point you said this:

" All dead except the martyred remain dead until after the Millennium."

I was simply pointing out three possibilities and not taking a position based on Rev 20.

We only get our glorified bodies at the Rapture. And both the Dead in Christ and the living Christians partake in the Same Rapture. Agreed. It is the timing where we disagree.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Yes. but when? Jesus tells us in the Olivet Discourse that it is AFTER (I wish I could underline the word after 50 times!!) the tribulation. Jesus tells us in John 6 four times that he will "Raise (them) up in the Last Day.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Yes, thank you!!!
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

So for your statement in point # 3 to be true that would mean that we Christians would have to wait all the way until the end of the Millennial Kingdom for us to get our glorified bodies since the Dead in Christ would not raise until the end of the Millennial Kingdom like you claim. See both the living in Christ and the dead in Christ partake in the Rapture. They both partake in the same event. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture Plain. Again, don't mix topics here. I was also discussing the meaning of Rev 20.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[SUP][a][/SUP] thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

There is another possibility for the above passage. If the Rapture occurs at the 7th trump and all those Christians who were killed up to that point were raptured, this passage could be refering to new believers who are martyred after the Rapture. We have the proclaimation of the 3 angels in Rev 14:6 so it is still not too late to turn to God. The Beast doesn't start killing Christians until after Chapter 13.

See Rev 14:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[SUP][h][/SUP] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

The Rapture has to take place before the time of Jacob's trouble. WHY? Where did you prove this?

If the Rapture does not take place before the tribulation like you claim, then when does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occur? After the enemies are defeated in the Tribulation.

See Rev 19.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[SUP][d][/SUP] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! [SUP]7 [/SUP]Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

And finally, there is one more problem with one of the statements you made in point#3. This is the your other statement:

"The martyred reign with Christ over all those who make it through the Tribulation, both believers and non-believers."
I didn't say that.

The problem here is that none of the unbelievers who make it through the tribulation are given access into the Millennial Kingdom. All non-believers are cast into Hell:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

This happens after the Millenium. See Rev 20:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][b][/SUP] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

[h=3]The Great White Throne Judgment[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[SUP][c][/SUP] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]15 [/SUP]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Chosen,

I ran out of room above. The Millennial period contains both believers and unbelievers. The Lord establishes His kingdom on earth in Zion. He rules the nations with a rod of iron from Zion. I believe that all those who reside in Zion will be believers but there will be plenty of unbelievers who reside outside of Zion.

Again, Zechariah 14 shows us this. The Lord defeats and kills everyone who came against Jerusalem. But those who did not participate from those nations who came against Jerusalem in the latter days and survive to the end will enter the millennium. It is hard to believe that there will be any non-believers left after what the earth will witness but apparently there will be some.

[h=3]The Nations Worship the King[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[SUP][d][/SUP] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Chosen,

Let's simplify this and cut to the chase. If the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, why does our Lord and Savior tell us it happens after? Why would Jesus mislead or lie to us about the timing? What the Lord says agrees with what Paul teaches; after the tribulation, with a trumpet, gathering of saints/elect.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just answer this specifically. Forget all the other fluff we have been talking about. Would you rather believe man (John Darby and all those who preach his lie) or Jesus himself? He should know best since he's the one coming and is the creator of all things.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

Plain, I will have to limit my response to you in a very short reply as I do not have enough time to address each argument that you brought forth.

So I will say this, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb does not happen after the Tribulation, it actually happens before.

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:1-21 (KJV)

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place after the Judgment Seat of Christ. And after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is finished, and after the time of Jacob's trouble is finished, then we come back with the Lord on white horses. We are the armies of Heaven that come back with the Lord Jesus. I mean look at the sequence of events just in Revelation 19. It is all there outlined for you. Then the 1,000 year physical Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ can be seen as the Honey Moon. We are in the Sabbath rest during the Millennial Kingdom.

And no Matthew 25:41 does not happen after the Millennial Kingdom. It happens at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Which is before the Millennial Kingdom.

Plain, you are confusing the Judgment of the Nations with the Great White Throne Judgment. The Judgment of the Nations takes place at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming. And it takes place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat:

3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion. - Joel 3:1-21 (KJV)

This passage of Scripture is describing the Judgment of the Nations. At it lines and parallels well with Matthew 24 and Mark 13 which also reference the Day of the LORD (Second Advent).

So Plain, do not confuse the Judgment of the Nations with the Great White Throne Judgment.

Remember the Judgment of the Nations at Christ's Second Coming and Advent takes place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (See Joel 3:2, & 12). And the Great White Throne Judgment takes place in outer space.

As for your other arguments Plain, I will just have to address them later when I have more time and while I am not too busy.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Chosen,

We clearly don't agree about much. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is NOT before the Tribulation, just like the "Rapture" is NOT before the Tribulation. You can't have the Marriage of the Lamb BEFORE Romans 11 is complete, the grafting of the Gentiles into the Jews. Jesus isn't going to marry half a bride!!!

The Church and the Believing State of Israel must become ONE before the Marriage. The State of Israel is currently secular. 2/3 of Israel will be killed during the Trib leaving 1/3 as the faithful - brought through the fire, refined as silver and tested as gold (Zech 13:8-9).

But again, I would rather focus on the really big and important topic - Rapture. When you have time, please address my last post. Here it is again.

If the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, why does our Lord and Savior tell us it happens after? Why would Jesus mislead or lie to us about the timing? What the Lord says agrees with what Paul teaches; after the tribulation, sending angels, with a trumpet, gathering of saints/elect.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just answer this specifically. Forget all the other fluff we have been talking about. Would you rather believe man (John Darby and all those who preach his lie) or Jesus himself? He should know best since he's the one coming and is the creator of all things.

zone · Jul 8, 2013

this pretrib thing is like Keystone Cops.

it's unbiblical, ridiculous, against anything written.

and a complete waste of time and energy.

false "gospel" - saved by some cosmic vacuum cleaner before any suffering can happen.

NONSENSE.

not in there...not written...bogus...fabricated.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

zone said:

AMEN BROTHER!!!

Satan is the great deceiver. What better way to get the world to believe in his beast/anti-Christ then to have Christians telling the world for 200 years that we (they) won't be here. Oops, then suddenly the 6th seal is opened and all hell breaks loose on the entire world - and we are still here!! These same unbelievers will then look at all the church people hiding in caves right along side them and laugh at them or worse. Talk about making it easy for the False Profit.

notuptome · Jul 8, 2013

zone said:

Well you is wrong. The rapture applies to the church living at the time of Christ's return. It is very probable that Christ will return in the clouds first as that is the way He left. Paul is comforting believers in 1 Thess 4:13-18 who through the gnostic teaching of the times were persuaded that they could miss the resurrection if they were living when Christ returned. They were expecting His return even back then. Those who hope for a pre-trib rapture point to ch 5 vs 9 where Paul states that we are not appointed to wrath. The tribulation is Gods wrath poured out upon the world. A time of great judgment and suffering. Two thirds of all those on the earth perishing.
2 Thess 2:6-9 He who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way. Is interesting in that this is addressing when the man of sin will be revealed. If the hinderer is the Holy Spirit in the church then the church must be gone into the Lord's presence before the close of the tribulation. Some are likely to find that disturbing and others will find it comforting. Depends on which camp you are in.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ChosenbyHim · Jul 8, 2013

zone said:

Zone,

the Pre-tribulation Rapture is a Biblical Doctrine and truth. If you don't undertand it, then seek the Lord in prayer about it. And ask Him to reveal it to you in His word. The teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture is in the word of God. It is that simple. You need to study the Scriptures and you need to rightly divide them. And do not ignore the Dispensations that are in the Scriptures. Because if you continue to do that, then you are going to continue to be confused on this issue.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:1-8 (KJV)

Now let me ask you Zone, do you love His appearing?

Are you desiring to see the Lord Jesus Christ?

Those of us on here and the other brethren around the world who are for the Pre-tribulation rapture are looking for the Lord Jesus Christ. We are longing for His appearing.

The post trib. camp are not looking for Jesus Christ. The post trib. camp is looking for the antichrist.

And last time I checked, we are not exhorted to love the appearing of the new world order, or the appearing of the antichrist, or the appearing the time of Jacob's trouble.

But rather, we are we are exhorted to love the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to love His appearing:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV)

zone · Jul 8, 2013

notuptome said:

Well you is wrong. The rapture applies to the church living at the time of Christ's return. It is very probable that Christ will return in the clouds first as that is the way He left. Paul is comforting believers in 1 Thess 4:13-18 who through the gnostic teaching of the times were persuaded that they could miss the resurrection if they were living when Christ returned. They were expecting His return even back then. Those who hope for a pre-trib rapture point to ch 5 vs 9 where Paul states that we are not appointed to wrath. The tribulation is Gods wrath poured out upon the world. A time of great judgment and suffering. Two thirds of all those on the earth perishing.
2 Thess 2:6-9 He who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way. Is interesting in that this is addressing when the man of sin will be revealed. If the hinderer is the Holy Spirit in the church then the church must be gone into the Lord's presence before the close of the tribulation. Some are likely to find that disturbing and others will find it comforting. Depends on which camp you are in.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yes well roger, sorry, but that's all a fabrication.
everybody is here right to the very last second.

unless they die first.

pretrib is comic book (blasphemy actually) - adding to the Word.
why ppl risk the Rev 22 warning is beyond me.

zone · Jul 8, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

not it isn't, its heresy.
a stupid one at that.
absurd.

ChosenbyHim said:

i do understand it.
prayed and sought the truth.
found it - debunked rubbish.

ChosenbyHim said:

eh....you mean cut up time into dispensations?
like Darby and Scofield the rapure king heretics did?
nah.

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 2011

Gerstner: Wrongly Dividing the word of Truth- Free pdf book

Someone, somewhere, signed me up to Nicenecouncil.com. They've been sending me a bunch of e-mails for a while now. This e-mail finally caught my attention:

FREE eBook - Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth by John Gerstner

This was one of the first books I read as a Reformed person. While highly polemical, it was one of the first books that helped me sort out dispensationalism. What endeared me to this book was Dr. Gerstner's lengthy replies to a few dispensationalists at the end.

So, I followed the e-mail prompts, went through the registration process, and they did indeed send me a free pdf of the book.

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Gerstner: Wrongly Dividing the word of Truth- Free pdf book

Dispensationalism
A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult?

“What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation… If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation.”By John H. Gerstner Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism

What is Dispensationalism?

Dispensationalism is a form of premillennialism originating among the Plymouth Brethren in the early 1830′s. The father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby, educated as a lawyer and ordained Anglican priest, was one of the chief founders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, which arose in reaction against the perceived empty formalism of the Church of England. To the Brethren the true “invisible” church was to come out of the apostate “visible” Church, rejecting such forms as priesthood and sacraments.Dispensational theology centers upon the concept of God’s dealings with mankind being divided into (usually) seven distinct economies or “dispensations”, in which man is tested as to his obedience to the will of God as revealed under each dispensation.

Dispensationalists see God as pursuing two distinct purposes throughout history, one related to an earthly goal and an earthly people (the Jews), the other to heavenly goals and a heavenly people (the church).Dispensationalists believe that in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the “mystery form” of the kingdom – the church – was established.

The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a “parenthesis” in God’s plan for Israel. In the future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will continue throughout all eternity. The “parenthesis”, or church age, will end at the rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT saints) to heaven to celebrate the “marriage feast of the Lamb” with Christ for a period of seven years.God’s program for the Jews then resumes with the tribulation, Antichrist, bowls of wrath, 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Armageddon.

Then, the Second (third, if you count the preTrib rapture) Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire nation of Israel, the resurrection of the Tribulation and Old Testament saints, and the “sheep and goats” judgment. The “goats” will be cast into hell, the “sheep” and the believing Jews will enter the millennium in natural human bodies, marrying, reproducing, and dying. The “mystery church” and the resurrected Tribulation and Old Testament saints will live in the heavenly Jerusalem suspended above the earthly city. This millennium will be a time of great peace and prosperity, with Christ ruling on David’s throne. After 1,000 yrs. Satan will be released from the chain with which he had been bound at the beginning of the millennium and many of the children born to the “sheep” and the Israelites will follow him in revolt against Christ.

The King will again destroy His enemies, followed by another resurrection of the righteous, another resurrection of the unrighteous, a final judgment, and at last the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Although premillennial thought has been recorded in the early church, dispensational theology and its pursuant eschatology are new, as even the father of the system admitted -”I think we ought to have something more of direct testimony as to the lord’s coming, and its bearing also on the state of the church: ordinarily, it would not be well to have it so clear, as it frightens people. We must pursue it steadily; it works like leaven, and its fruit is by no means seen yet; I do not mean leaven as ill, but the thoughts are new, and people’s minds work on them, and all the old habits are against their feelings – all the gain of situation, and every worldly motive; we must not be surprised at its effect being slow on the mass, the ordinary instruments of acting upon others having been trained in most opposite habits.” – LETTERS OF J.N.D., vol.1 pg.25-26

The new doctrine was widely accepted in America, due to popular prophetic meetings such as the Niagara Bible Conferences. C.I. Scofield promulgated dispensational thought in his Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensational Bible institutes by the hundreds have sprung up across the continent – notably Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary.Media evangelists such as Jerry Fallwell, Dave Hunt, Howard Conder, Charles Capps, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, and Hal Lindsey popularize dispensational eschatology today. Most likely you have heard these doctrines taught over Christian radio programs, and yes, from your own church’s pulpit, though probably no one defined the theological system as dispensationalism nor the origination as Darby circa 1832.Dispensationalists view the teaching as a return to Biblical theology, after nearly 1,800 years of darkness.

But, since the day Darby began to preach the doctrine, Godly men have opposed.Many books have been published exposing the flaws in the intricate system. Most hack away at the branches, arguing peripheral issues. We intend to lay the axe to the root of the tree.”My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby’s doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby.” - George Müeller, a contemporary and one time supporter of Darby quoted by Robert Cameron in his book SCRIPTURAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LORD’S RETURN, pp.146-7

The Heresy Of Dispensationalism | Test All Things

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Chosen,

Again, all these verses are nice. All are true and correct. But you have one BIG problem - none place the "rapture" or coming of the Lord BEFORE the Tribulation. To believe in a rapture (second coming where the Lord gathers His saints) that comes before the Tribulation is the same as calling Jesus a liar!!

You didn't like Matthew 24 so let's try Mark 13:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Zone, what are we going to do when the tribulation starts and these people lose faith because they weren't raptured? You know Paul teaches that they will turn on us, brother against brother and father against son. There will be a Falling Away, love will grow cold. All because some nut job named Darby introduced a concept not in the Bible of a Pre-Trib Rapture and took 80-90% of the church down this slippy slope with him.

You are right zone, adding to the Word is a big mistake. Isn't it ironic that the very tribulation they think they will escape, they will see because of their belief. As John teaches us in Rev 22 which is the final warning in the whole Bible...

[h=3]A Warning[/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]For[SUP][i][/SUP] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[SUP][j][/SUP] to him the plagues that are written in this book; [SUP]19 [/SUP]and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[SUP][k][/SUP] his part from the Book[SUP][l][/SUP] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

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