Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
I am saved by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the only reason I can stand in His presence.

Now how do I live? I follow His commands, which include the Torah in Spirit and in Truth; physically and spiritually. My obedience or disobedience to the Torah has no bearing on my salvation.

I don't think there's any bait and switch going on. I'm sorry if you're not understanding me.

Blessings,
Matt
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
...but the just shall live by faith...notice the law is not of faith.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
...but the just shall live by faith...notice the law is not of faith.
Here is a copy and paste of the Hebrew meaning of
Faith:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[SIZE=+2]Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Faith ~ Emunah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
Here is a copy and paste of the Hebrew meaning of
Faith:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+2]Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Faith ~ Emunah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Thank you so much for your post RedTent. To tell you the truth, I've been struggling with the meaning of faith for quite awhile. Your post sure put that rest. Whack! lol. Makes perfect sense now. :D
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
There is a lot of preaching going on about abiding in Christ by being sure to do nothing to express that.


there is?

where?

can ya produce the "lot of preaching" 'bout "being sure to do nothing to express" abiding in Christ?

whattya mean express abiding?

but i REALLY need to see all that preaching about making sure nobody expresses their faith and love for Jesus.
produce.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Here is a copy and paste of the Hebrew meaning of
Faith:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+2]Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Faith ~ Emunah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
It still stands...''The Law is not of faith'', Gal3;:12...(actually ALL of Galatians). Pitting man's word against God's?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
Under the law...yes, they should have.
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
Under the law...yes, they should have.
Crossnote, from where I'm sitting, it's seems the whole problem with your not understanding this, is that you don't understand the difference between keeping the law to earn salvation and keeping it under grace; hence, in spirit.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Besides "the law" is not rituals. Rituals are blessings and helps for our pleasure, they are to lead to the law but they are not law.
you mean you haven't even reached the Law (harsh pedagogue) yet?
sheesh.

freedom as mature and responsible adopted sons and daughters who have seen the Law fulfilled in JESUS THE CHRIST is superior to the Law.

but, the rituals are teaching tool about the law.
okay.

all this teaching about "expressing" abiding by doing - what doing?
what do you DO that is so pleasing to God redtent, that the rest of us are just missing out on?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Crossnote, from where I'm sitting, it's seems the whole problem with your not understanding this, is that you don't understand the difference between keeping the law to earn salvation and keeping it under grace; hence, in spirit.
Perhaps you don't understand our walk is one of faith not of law...Gal 2:19-20
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Here is a copy and paste of the Hebrew meaning of
Faith:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+2]Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Faith ~ Emunah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

While I love the defenition (and would add the NT defenition is quite the same)

the problem I have is what the faith is based in.

This person is having a faith in self to obey Gods will. As did most jews,, The pharisees (saul included) had this kind of faith in crucifying Christ, and killing his people.

The faith is misplaced. How can one have faith "hold firm" in self?? We are alwaysw failing.

Those who trusted in God truly (like David, Abraham, Daniel, and other great men of faith) had faith in one thing. GOD.

Their nails Ilives) were fastened in a secure place. That was God through th eprophesied one who would make their eternity secure.

This is what God calls us to do. Trust God. for only he can nail us into a firm foundation, which is Christ.

if your going to trust self. You will fail. God does not want us to trust self. "not of works LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST. Self faith causes pride. And god resists the proud, but gives life to the humble
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It still stands...''The Law is not of faith'', Gal3;:12...(actually ALL of Galatians). Pitting man's word against God's?

Amen

Thats because if you trust law. your faith is in self, and your ability (or inability) to keep it. and not in God, who secures us in his son forever.. seated by the right hand of God as our mediator.

Trust God not self. that is what the ot prophets had faith in, Thats what the NT apostles had faith in. Thats is what empowered christ to do what he did.

why is it so hard to trust God?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This is so odd an answer.
why is it odd?

They thought the law is what made them righteous. Jesus showed them their flaw. They did great in keeping the former. they failed utterly keeping the latter.

if they were going to save themselves by law. they should have done it all.

an honest person would have seen this as the schoolmaster. yes Lord, your right, I failed..

Then christ could have shown them his purpose (like nicodemus and eventually saul) and they would not have rejected him.


as paul said, if your gonna keep part. your indebted to keep the hole. and you better do it perfect. for that is the only way.

oh wait, we already failed. to late for that!
(ah the schoolmaster still works to them who have eyes to see and ears to hear!!)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
MATT:

Galatians 3
Faith Brings Righteousness

1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Intent of the Law

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,040
240
63
Zone,

What was the Mosaic Covenant originally? Where did God make that covenant, and what was the purpose, what were the terms, conditions, the parties involved, etc. Where in the Old Testament was it given, and what was the covenant?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Zone,

What was the Mosaic Covenant originally? Where did God make that covenant, and what was the purpose, what were the terms, conditions, the parties involved, etc. Where in the Old Testament was it given, and what was the covenant?
Exodus 34:27-28
"Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

2 Chronicles 6:11
"And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."

were you there?
you're not claiming you come from ancient Israel are you?

you already said NO.

even if you could prove you were (no one can) - does this make any sense to you?
as an hypothetical Israelite (Hebrew)...do you understand what was being STRESSED CRITICALLY just before 70AD?

Hebrews 7
Melchizedek the Priest

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham. 6This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

Jesus Like Melchizedek

11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”a
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’ ”b
22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Hebrews 8

The High Priest of a New Covenant


1Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”a 6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and saidb :

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”c

13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.