Rock Music - It Kills - Another good & informative article by Terry Watkins

[SarahM777]

Maybe Moses lost one of the tablets, 13th Commandment, thou shalt not play a drum for its an instrument of satan.

Doesn't all this make one wonder how they would have dealt with David. No where in the Bible does it ever show David did things halfway. It was all or nothing. When he danced it was with everything he had,he left nothing on the table.

And where does the Lord say we are NOT to worship Him with our bodies? Isn't that part of loving Him with all of our heart,mind,soul and strength? Isn't He the one that made us physical beings or am I wrong on that?

 

[thecreationtutor]

This is a reductionist statement - makes all the problems with people one focus - another example is evolution, abortion, homosexuality - everything in light of these things and these things only, is not healthy

The multifaceted nature of us, and the world systems controlled by Satan

I love creation, and I can in my flesh be like if you don't believe : dot, dot, dot then your wrong, and your not as spiritual as I am i can go blind pharisee in a second and become reductionist. I can pick that up and make sure I go to a church that believes the way I do, and then get all high and mighty that other churches don't have my reductionist view.

Possibly reductionist views come from an area that before we came to know Christ, we were so lost in it, and in our hyper spiritual desire - all our christian faith becomes this reductionist vantage point. I didn't grow up in a Christian home, I got saved in a secular Science field - i came to know and believe in a literal historical genesis 1-11.

Now I can judge and see all my salvation and knowledge of God based on that reductionist idea and make my life about it - i even created a ministry lol about it. But, that's not my life - my life is hidden in Christ - to know the person of Christ, and His testimonies in my life, and not to love my life. My life is more than about Creation/ fighting abortion / fighting fatherlessness" these are all things that are important and deserve prayer and action, but to reduce my life in Christ to just one or two of those is unhealthy. Balance

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Chosen,

I have taken it to the Lord and it always goes back to discernment. Of course a lot of it is not of the Lord but there is some. All forms of music have worldly music also,those who put so much effort into this almost NEVER speak about the rest. When you ask them to define where it crosses over from spiritual to satanic they can not define the timing,where does the beat change over from spiritual to worldly. Can you explain where it does? If you can't then how is one suppose to know?

Never mind the fact that you guys do quote people who do use it for wrong. Everything on this earth that God has given us can be twisted,it can be used either for good or for evil. Never mind the fact that one of the guys your using LIED about some of the groups,but that never enters the minds of those who use those sites to "prove" their point.

Never mind the fact that King David,the man after God's own heart danced before the Lord in the street,had a 4,000 piece band,(You all think 4 guys playing guitar with a couple of amps are loud).

Never mind Psalm 150 KJV by the way

Psalm 150

1 Praise ye the Lord.​

Praise God in his sanctuary:
praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts:
praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet:
praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance:
praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals:
praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord.​

Praise ye the Lord.

Psalm 66

66 Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:2 Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.

​

Psalm 81

King James Version (KJV)​

81 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

​

Psalm 95

King James Version (KJV)​

95 O come, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.​

Psalm 98:3-5 KJV


3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
4 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
5 Sing unto the Lord with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the Lord, the King.


Psalm 100


100 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

Please show me any where in those verses where we are told that the music that we sing to the Lord be quiet and sedate. It can be a loud,joyful noise before the Lord. The key is always in spirit and in truth. The sad part about it is that the same people who are so much against it are the very same people that will yell and scream at the TV when their favorite football player scores a touchdown from 50 yards away yet they can NEVER show the same type of excitement towards the Lord and creator of the entire universe. Isn't that a bit backwards?

Well Sarah, I see you are using the right Bible now, at least for this response. That is good

And Sarah, what makes you think that the Good Old Hymns are quiet and sedate? It gets very exciting singing the precious old Hymns. Yes we are to worship Him in spirit and in truth, which means we are to leave our rotten flesh out of it. No one said that you can't praise the Lord by jumping and leaping for joy. Or by clapping your hands really loud. Again Sarah, it goes back to the type of music you are listening to. The kind of music that you are filling your soul with. And your spirit with. Music is not neutral Sarah. Different types of music have differing effects on our bodies and our minds. That is just the way it is.

If you don't feel convicted about listening to the rock music even though you have been shown that the origins of rock n' roll are from pagan voodooism, well then I suppose you will just continue to listen to it. After all, it is your choice Sarah. And I'll be honest; my flesh also likes rock n' roll music. Just like my flesh likes reggae music, and techno music. And so forth. But I know that that kind of music is just not edifying to my soul and spirit.

And like I mentioned earlier, if the music is primarily pulsating drum beats that place a high emphasis on rhythm, then the music is going to appeal to your flesh and it will exalt the flesh and its old carnal passions.

Also, which of the guys lied?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Also Sarah, thank you for sharing those Scriptures. Those are beautiful Scriptures describing the joy, excitement, and blessedness of praising and worshipping our great and wonderful God.

 

[SarahM777]

Also, which of the guys lied?

Terry Watkins. While he was correct on part of this,he used deception to prove his point on this test.

The group Kiss leaped on stage as rock'n roll demons — puking blood, breathing fire and screaming — "God of rock and roll, we'll rob you of your virgin soul!" There is no mistaking the "god" of KISS, a glance at the lyrics from "Unholy" on their album "Revenge" show their "god":

I am the incubus/ I lay the egg in you
The worm that burrows/ Through your brain
But you are the beast/ That calls me by my name
Unholy
I was created by man, yeah I'm the Lord of the flies,
you know I'm Unholy
From the left hand of power comes the father of lies
Unholy - Unholy!
​

Surely, there is a clear SEPARATION between "Christian" Petra and "satanic" KISS.[HR][/HR][SIZE=+2]Question 2.[/SIZE] Is the following lyrics from the "Christian" group Petra's album "Petra Means Rock" or satanic KISS's "Revenge" (along with the above "Unholy")?[HR][/HR]

God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Gave rock and roll to everyone
God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Put it in the soul of everyone






While he was correct that Petra did use that line as part of the lyrics,what he leaves out is the CONTEXT of the lyrics was. He implies that Petra is singing the same song. The two are not alike. And if were to actually looked at the whole lyrics he should have known that. Slice it,dice it and put it in the blender deception is still a lie.

Here is the opening lyric to that song

You can learn to dance
Or you can be a square
You can let the music take you anywhere
But where will you be when the music's gone

Further down in the lyrics

You can love the rock
And let Him free your soul
Or you can let the old man take his toll
It's never too late to change your mind

Which this song also was on that same album

It is Finished

In the heat of early morning on a hillThey call The SkullThe roaring of the angry mobHad settled to a lull
All eyes were cast upon the manWhose hands and feet were boundThey saw Him cry in anguishWhen they heard the hammer pound
They saw the bloody woven thorns withWhich His head was crownedThey watched the bloody cross of woodBe dropped into the ground
The soldiers gambled for His clothesThey watched them win and loseThey saw the sign above His headThat said "King of the Jews
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished
They searched His face for angerFor vengeance in his stareInstead of eyes that burned with hateA look of love was there
[ From: PETRA - IT IS FINISHED LYRICS ]He prayed for their forgivenessAnd bowed His battered headAnd no one knew the meaningOf the final words He said
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished
The provision has been madeThe foundation has been laidHe paid the ransom dueAnd tore the temple veil in twoAnd opened up the wayFor me and you
It is finished
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished

Read more: PETRA - IT IS FINISHED LYRICS

He never bothered to tell anyone that he took the lyrics out of context nor did he ever mention that this song was on the album. ​

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Terry Watkins. While he was correct on part of this,he used deception to prove his point on this test.

The group Kiss leaped on stage as rock'n roll demons — puking blood, breathing fire and screaming — "God of rock and roll, we'll rob you of your virgin soul!" There is no mistaking the "god" of KISS, a glance at the lyrics from "Unholy" on their album "Revenge" show their "god":

I am the incubus/ I lay the egg in you
The worm that burrows/ Through your brain
But you are the beast/ That calls me by my name
Unholy
I was created by man, yeah I'm the Lord of the flies,
you know I'm Unholy
From the left hand of power comes the father of lies
Unholy - Unholy!
​

Surely, there is a clear SEPARATION between "Christian" Petra and "satanic" KISS.[HR][/HR][SIZE=+2]Question 2.[/SIZE] Is the following lyrics from the "Christian" group Petra's album "Petra Means Rock" or satanic KISS's "Revenge" (along with the above "Unholy")?[HR][/HR]

God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Gave rock and roll to everyone
God gave rock and roll to you, gave rock and roll to you
Put it in the soul of everyone






While he was correct that Petra did use that line as part of the lyrics,what he leaves out is the CONTEXT of the lyrics was. He implies that Petra is singing the same song. The two are not alike. And if were to actually looked at the whole lyrics he should have known that. Slice it,dice it and put it in the blender deception is still a lie.

Here is the opening lyric to that song

You can learn to dance
Or you can be a square
You can let the music take you anywhere
But where will you be when the music's gone

Further down in the lyrics

You can love the rock
And let Him free your soul
Or you can let the old man take his toll
It's never too late to change your mind

Which this song also was on that same album

It is Finished

In the heat of early morning on a hillThey call The SkullThe roaring of the angry mobHad settled to a lull
All eyes were cast upon the manWhose hands and feet were boundThey saw Him cry in anguishWhen they heard the hammer pound
They saw the bloody woven thorns withWhich His head was crownedThey watched the bloody cross of woodBe dropped into the ground
The soldiers gambled for His clothesThey watched them win and loseThey saw the sign above His headThat said "King of the Jews
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished
They searched His face for angerFor vengeance in his stareInstead of eyes that burned with hateA look of love was there
[ From: PETRA - IT IS FINISHED LYRICS ]He prayed for their forgivenessAnd bowed His battered headAnd no one knew the meaningOf the final words He said
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished
The provision has been madeThe foundation has been laidHe paid the ransom dueAnd tore the temple veil in twoAnd opened up the wayFor me and you
It is finished
It is finishedAnd the sky grew black as the nightIt is finishedAnd the people scattered in fright
The work had been doneRedemption had been wonThe war was over without a fightIt is finished

Read more: PETRA - IT IS FINISHED LYRICS

He never bothered to tell anyone that he took the lyrics out of context nor did he ever mention that this song was on the album. ​

Sarah, but did he ever twist any of Petra's lyrics? If he did not, if he just quoted verbatim the lyrics that came from petra himself, then no he did not lie.

Could he have mentioned that that song was on the album? Sure. But just because he left out that one detail, doesn't mean he used deception. Remember Sarah, a Little leaven leaveneth the whole lump (Gal. 5:9). Not a lot, just a little.

But again though, should he have mentioned that song on petra's album? Sure. Now that you brought that up, I think it would have been better for him to bring up that song, seeing that he referenced petra's album and not just one song that they did.

But still, I do not believe that he lied. He just made a simple example from taking the lyrics from one of their songs. And he did not twist or change any of petra's lyrics, so again he did not lie. Brother Watkins was just quoting what Petra had already said.

Plus, if you don't like Brother Terry Watkins, then you can study some of the material that Mike Hoggard has produced on the CCM music issue as well as Jeff Godwin and Vance Ferrell (author of Inside Rock Music).

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah, but did he ever twist any of Petra's lyrics? If he did not, if he just quoted verbatim the lyrics that came from petra himself, then no he did not lie.

So he didn't deceive when he didn't take into account the actual lyrics to the whole song,used KISS as example,and made it sound like they were singing the same song,or that the two songs were the same type of content?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So he didn't deceive when he didn't take into account the actual lyrics to the whole song,used KISS as example,and made it sound like they were singing the same song,or that the two songs were the same type of content?

Again Sarah, didn't he quote verbatim what petra had wrote?

Well maybe he used kiss as an example because petra's music sounds just like Kiss's music.

And by the way; petra was wrong. God did not give us rock n' roll. Rock n' Roll came from voodoo paganism. Rock n' roll music is not of the Lord.

There is no difference between secular rock or so called "Christian" rock.

And Sarah, the very fact that petra plays a song that Argent from the rock band KISS came out with is very bad.

Because Petra is not obeying 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

And I checked both of the lyrics to the song which petra sang and took from KISS. And the lyrics from both of their choruses are nearly identical!!

 

[SarahM777]

Again Sarah, didn't he quote verbatim what petra had wrote?

Well maybe he used kiss as an example because petra's music sounds just like Kiss's music.

And by the way; petra was wrong. God did not give us rock n' roll. Rock n' Roll came from voodoo paganism. Rock n' roll music is not of the Lord.

There is no difference between secular rock or so called "Christian" rock.

And Sarah, the very fact that petra plays a song that Argent from the rock band KISS came out with is very bad.

Because Petra is not obeying 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

And I checked both of the lyrics to the song which petra sang and took from KISS. And the lyrics from both of their choruses are nearly identical!!

Go back and read what I said. It's what he left out.

I never said that the chorus was wasn't nearly identical. The rest of the song was not which is what I stated. The way he stated it made it sound like the song WAS identical. No where he does he ever mention any of their other songs or the lyrics,even though he does say which album the song came off of.

Can any of you show any verses in the Bible that shows where God said music can NOT have drums,cymbals or other percussion instruments? Can you show one verse that God says that rhythm in music is bad? Can you show one verse where God shows where it goes from to the other?

If you all would use the same standards across the board it wouldn't be so bad,but you pick and choose how you want to put it. One hand you say if the song does not say Jesus name their wrong,but it's OK in the hymns if they don't do that. So which is it,is it suppose to be one and the same or is it OK to use different standards? If the song is done in a more classical,country,bluegrass etc style how do you all judge between a secular classical song and a spiritual song? 100 to 1 says that most of those that are so vocal about it will say it's the lyrics. Yet not one will look at the lyrics of many of the songs,mostly what they point to is the style. Isn't that a double standard? Didn't Jesus get on the Pharisees for that same thing or am I wrong on that?

Didn't Paul also talk about things where if one's faith is strong enough where they don't see something as being wrong not to judge them for it in the same manner as someone whose faith is strong is not to judge one who's faith is weak on a disputable matter?

Somehow I juts don't see how when they are writing songs like this one can make them out be secular songs

The Coloring song - Petra

​

Red is the color of the blood that flowed down​

The face of someone who loved us so​

He's the perfect man, He's the Lord's own Son​

He's the Lamb of God, He's the only One​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make the love between us flow​

​

Blue is the color of a heart so cold that​

Will not bend when the story's told​

Of the Love of God for a sinful race​

Of the Blood that flowed down Jesus' Face​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can keep our hearts from growing cold​

​

Gold is the color of the morning sun​

That shines so freely on everyone​

It's the sun Above that keeps us warm​

It's the Son of Love that calms the storm​

[ From: PETRA - THE COLORING SONG LYRICS ]​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can turn our mornings into gold​

​

Brown is the color of the autumn leaves​

When the winter comes to the barren trees​

There is birth, there is death, there is a plan​

And there's just one God and there's just one man​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make our sins as white as snow​

​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can turn our mornings into gold​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can keep our hearts from growing cold​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make the love between us flow​

Read more: PETRA - THE COLORING SONG LYRICS

[video=youtube;EEVqUHidp_I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEVqUHidp_I[/video]

 

[SarahM777]

Plus, if you don't like Brother Terry Watkins, then you can study some of the material that Mike Hoggard has produced on the CCM music issue as well as Jeff Godwin and Vance Ferrell (author of Inside Rock Music).

You mean Baptist Mike Hoggard? I am very well aware of Hoggard. Sorry have a bit of a problem with someone that insults people. Also have a bit of a problem with many of the Baptists churches as many of them get very legalistic. I am very well aware of the fact that many of them will have you sign a pledge card saying you can't wear necklaces,play go fish with your kids,dresses must be below the ankle,etc,etc,etc. (My in laws were Baptist)

I can't imagine why God would tell a man that was using rock and roll for self gratification,that God would tell him to stay away from it because he just might a problem with it. Terry Watkins.

When did Baptists start using material from an SDA? (Vance Ferrell)

 

[SarahM777]

They want to target both the Christian market and the secular market. Consider it, I mean they can sure make a lot more money marketing to the lost world AND to Christians.

Afterall, the Bible believing Christians are a very small market.


10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. - 1 Timothy 6:10 (Holy Bible)

If the Christian artists are really doing that good of a job "crossing over" and really getting into the main stream market shouldn't that show in their record sales? Shouldn't it be showing that their record sales are coming close to others in the genre? How about if we take a look?

The Beatles over 3 Billion records Sgt Pepper 32 million alone
Elvis 1.8 Billion
Pink Floyd 200 Million Dark side of the moon 50 million alone
Michael Jackson 750 Million
Rolling Stones 200 Million
Jimi Hendrix 20 Million with only three albums
Beyonce (Both as a group and solo) 173 Million
Lady Gaga 111 Million
Eagles 120 Million
Led Zeppelin 200 Million

Get the idea of how popular just these are?

How about country?

Garth Brooks 100 Million
Faith Hill 40 million
Hank Williams JR 36 Million
Toby Keith 40 Million
George Strait 70 Million

Get the picture?

How about some other genres?

Kenny G 46 Million (That was in 2006)
Mile Davis 60 Million
Bob Marley Over 150 Million

Get the picture?

How about heavy metal?

Iron Maiden 150 Million
Ozzy Osbourne 100 Million
Black Sabbath 70 Million

Get the picture?

Of course you do have this also

The Oak Ridge Boys (But remember they started in the 50's)

46 Million

So how do the top Christian (Some of course not being Christian) artist's stack up?

Amy Grant (# 1 "artist") 30 Million (Questionable as to where she is really at)
Michael W Smith 17 Million (Questionable as to where he is at)
Sandi Patti 11 Million (Again questionable)

Petra 10 Million over 30 years
Third Day 7 Million over 20 Years
John Michael Talbot 4 million over 35 years
Newsboys 6 Million
Twila Paris 2 Million
Michael Card 4 Million
Casting Crowns 8 Million
Mercy Me 6 Million

HMMM does that sound like saying one is a Christian artist is going to give you the kind of riches that artists that are for sure not Christian get? If one is looking for fame and fortune why not just ditch the Christian label in the first place? It sure doesn't seem to help in the long run.

Remember if even 1/2 of a percent of people in the world are Born again Christians that's over 350,000,000 Christians. Does it sound like they are even hitting that many of the Christian's?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Go back and read what I said. It's what he left out.

I never said that the chorus was wasn't nearly identical. The rest of the song was not which is what I stated. The way he stated it made it sound like the song WAS identical. No where he does he ever mention any of their other songs or the lyrics,even though he does say which album the song came off of.

Can any of you show any verses in the Bible that shows where God said music can NOT have drums,cymbals or other percussion instruments? Can you show one verse that God says that rhythm in music is bad? Can you show one verse where God shows where it goes from to the other?

Sarah, when did I ever say that rhythm in music is bad? You do realize that some rhythm is necessary, don't you? If there is no rhythm, music wouldn't be music. It's that simple. What I was cautioning though is any music that puts a lot of emphasis on rhythm. Any type of music that puts an over-emphasis on rhythm. And rock n' roll music is just that kind of music.

And here are the Scriptures that I will give you when it comes to praise and worship:

33 Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.
2 Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
4 For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord.
6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. - Psalm 33:1-6 (KJV)

34 I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. - Psalm 34:1 (KJV)

18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. - Psalm 35:18 (KJV)

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; - Ephesians 5:19 (KJV)

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Colossians 3:16 (KJV)

If you all would use the same standards across the board it wouldn't be so bad,but you pick and choose how you want to put it. One hand you say if the song does not say Jesus name their wrong,but it's OK in the hymns if they don't do that. So which is it,is it suppose to be one and the same or is it OK to use different standards? If the song is done in a more classical,country,bluegrass etc style how do you all judge between a secular classical song and a spiritual song? 100 to 1 says that most of those that are so vocal about it will say it's the lyrics. Yet not one will look at the lyrics of many of the songs,mostly what they point to is the style. Isn't that a double standard? Didn't Jesus get on the Pharisees for that same thing or am I wrong on that?

Well here is the thing Sarah; I seem to think that you are sincere with your quest for answers. And I can see that you are persistent in your search for answers regarding this important issue. There are actually several guidelines and standards for Christian music to be Christian music. And note: The Music should meet all standards.


Here they are:

1st: Is the music the right kind of music? Is this music big on melody and harmony like the Hymns are? If the music has a good balance of harmony with melody and with a little bit of rhythm, then the music is most likely alright. Be weary of any music that puts a high emphasis on rhythm as that kind of music will only exalt the flesh.



2nd: are the words doctrinally correct? Is the song based on Scripture? That is what is so wonderful about the good old hymns, is that a lot of they hymns are based on Scripture. So when you are singing them, a lot of times, you are singing the Scriptures.



3rd: How is the lyrical content? What is the message that it teaches?

Does the words match the music being played? Also very important.


4th: Is the music people oriented or God oriented? Definitely something to consider Sarah. I mean just consider this question is the CCM movement people oriented or God oriented?


5th: Does it draw attention to the performer or to the message?


6th: Who is singing the music? Did you know that there are Catholics and Mormons that also sing the good old hymns?

Now let me ask you Sarah, all though the lyrics may be right and the music also may be the right type of music. But do you think that praise and worship coming from Catholics, Mormons, and other unsaved people is acceptable before God?

Again, something that is very important to consider.



7th: It should not mix the sacred with the profane. Also very important.


8th: And finally, how does the world receive the music? Does the world love the type of music that you consider "Christian" because if it does, then that is where the problem is. Because whosoever is a friend of the world is the enemy of God (James 4:4).

And one thing that must be considered here Sarah is this. Rock n' roll music is of the world. Just like Reggae is, and R&B, and Hip Hop, and Techno, and Trance, and Grunge, and Metal, etc. And of course there are others as well.

But those are some good standards for music. So definitely consider those prayerfully Sarah.

Didn't Paul also talk about things where if one's faith is strong enough where they don't see something as being wrong not to judge them for it in the same manner as someone whose faith is strong is not to judge one who's faith is weak on a disputable matter?

Well what was the context of that passage Sarah? It was eating anything that might offend your brother in the Lord. You see it is not a sin to eat meat. But what is sin is compromising with the world. Using the world's tools to win the world. That is basically what the CCM Movement is.

The biggest objection I have ever heard is that well if you don't play the rock music, then the youth won't come. Well my response would be, well then they can go somewhere else. Because if they won't come to church because of the kind of music that is not being played, then that means they were fixing to go to church for the wrong reason and motive anyways. Christians are not to go to church to be entertained. Christians are to go to church to be fed the word of God.

Somehow I juts don't see how when they are writing songs like this one can make them out be secular songs

The Coloring song - Petra

​

Red is the color of the blood that flowed down​

The face of someone who loved us so​

He's the perfect man, He's the Lord's own Son​

He's the Lamb of God, He's the only One​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make the love between us flow​

​

Blue is the color of a heart so cold that​

Will not bend when the story's told​

Of the Love of God for a sinful race​

Of the Blood that flowed down Jesus' Face​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can keep our hearts from growing cold​

​

Gold is the color of the morning sun​

That shines so freely on everyone​

It's the sun Above that keeps us warm​

It's the Son of Love that calms the storm​

[ From: PETRA - THE COLORING SONG LYRICS ]​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can turn our mornings into gold​

​

Brown is the color of the autumn leaves​

When the winter comes to the barren trees​

There is birth, there is death, there is a plan​

And there's just one God and there's just one man​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make our sins as white as snow​

​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can turn our mornings into gold​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can keep our hearts from growing cold​

That can give us life, that can make us grow​

That can make the love between us flow​

Read more: PETRA - THE COLORING SONG LYRICS

[video=youtube;EEVqUHidp_I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEVqUHidp_I[/video]

Well Sarah, I must admit those are some decent lyrics. The lyrical content for this song would be alright, but again what type of music is petra playing in the background?

Is it the pagan music of rock n' roll? Because if it is, then I am sure that the Lord is not please with it.


5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. - Romans 8:5-10 (KJV)

We cannot please the Lord in the flesh Sarah, so how would fleshly music like rock n' roll be pleasing to Him, even though it falls under the label of Christian praise?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You mean Baptist Mike Hoggard? I am very well aware of Hoggard. Sorry have a bit of a problem with someone that insults people. Also have a bit of a problem with many of the Baptists churches as many of them get very legalistic. I am very well aware of the fact that many of them will have you sign a pledge card saying you can't wear necklaces,play go fish with your kids,dresses must be below the ankle,etc,etc,etc. (My in laws were Baptist)

I can't imagine why God would tell a man that was using rock and roll for self gratification,that God would tell him to stay away from it because he just might a problem with it. Terry Watkins.

When did Baptists start using material from an SDA? (Vance Ferrell)

Okay Sarah you don't like Mike Hoggard, but should that be your standard for truth? I mean is what Mike Hoggard is saying and teaching in that video he did on the Occult in Christian Music, is it true? Does it line up with Scripture? That is what you should ask yourself Sarah.

Does what he say line up with the word of God?


As long as what he is saying lines up with the Scriptures, then it is a good source.

Now how has Mike Hoggard insulted people?

Well there may be Baptists out there that are like that. And hey I will readily admit that anybody that adds rules for a Christian that are not in the Bible are making man made traditions. Whether they be Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc.

And I agree with you that not allowing women to wear necklaces in the church is a little overboard. Let's say I had a wife and if we walked into a Baptist church that tried to get her to sign a form saying that she won't wear any necklaces, I would ask them chapter and verse, please? Where is that taught in the Scriptures?

Now of course, obviously I am not married. I am still single. But I just wanted to give that example though.


Now this is what the Scripture says for women in regard to how they should dress and how they should keep their appearance:


9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. - 1 Timothy 2:9-10 (KJV)


3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. - 1 Peter 3:3-4 (KJV)


Now I don't see in that Scripture where it says that a woman cannot wear a gold necklace or earrings, I think it is more of an heart issue. The context is right there in both of the verses. Which is this, a woman should not be so caught up in herself or outward beauty. Although, she should dress nice and look nice, it is just that she shouldn't let that be her adorning or what she bases her beauty solely on. Furthermore, her beauty should be inward as well as outward. And Obviously a woman can look beautiful and dress herself well without being immodest.

So again Sarah, I agree with you there that no matter what denomination it is, they shouldn't be imposing rules on God's people that are not in the Bible. If the rule that an assembly has cannot be found in the Scriptures, then it is a man made tradition. And that obviously can fall under legalism.

Now having said that Sarah, you do realize that not all Baptists are like that, don't you?

 

[Drett]

Merrill got 72 mice and divided them into three groups: one to test a mouse's response to hard rock, another to the music of Mozart and a control group that wouldn't listen to any music at all, rock or classical.

The young vivisectionist got all the mice accustomed to living in aquariums in his basement, then startedplaying music 10 hours a day. Merrill put each mouse through a maze three times a week that originally had taken the mice an average of 10 minutes to complete.

Over time, the 24 control-group mice managed to cut about 5 minutes from their maze-completion time. The Mozart-listening mice cut their time back 8-and-a-half minutes.

But the hard-rock mice added 20 minutes to their time, making their average maze-running time 300 percent more than their original average.

Need we say more? Well maybe we do. Merrill told the Associated Press that he'd attempted the experiment the year before, allowing mice in the different groups to live together.

"I had to cut my project short because all the hard-rock mice killed each other," Merrill said. "None of the classical mice did that."

Mice and Music Experiment-Mozart, Hard Rock Mice Kill Each Other: Educational CyberPlayGround

It is not the lyrics that do it. From my understanding the heavy metal mice did not listen to the message. The music triggered something in their brain to be violent.

 

[Tintin]

Haha! Thanks for the laugh!

 

[SarahM777]

Here they are:

1st: Is the music the right kind of music? Is this music big on melody and harmony like the Hymns are? If the music has a good balance of harmony with melody and with a little bit of rhythm, then the music is most likely alright. Be weary of any music that puts a high emphasis on rhythm as that kind of music will only exalt the flesh.

Chosen,

And this is the part where you and I are butting heads. Does having more rhythm cause all to exalt the flesh or is that on an individual level? If God sees this on an individual level then what is happening is that some are making something that God says it's wrong for one but not for another. If whatever it is causes ME to sin,I am to stay away from it even if it is the most innocent thing that someone else doesn't have a problem with. That's why I am to stay away from country music. I am prone to depression and that stuff just makes it all the worse. If anything would put me over the edge that would do it.

We need to remember what Jesus said If your eye causes you to sin pluck it out...,if it cause to sin get rid of it doesn't matter what it is.

2nd: are the words doctrinally correct? Is the song based on Scripture? That is what is so wonderful about the good old hymns, is that a lot of they hymns are based on Scripture. So when you are singing them, a lot of times, you are singing the Scriptures.



3rd: How is the lyrical content? What is the message that it teaches?

Does the words match the music being played? Also very important.


4th: Is the music people oriented or God oriented? Definitely something to consider Sarah. I mean just consider this question is the CCM movement people oriented or God oriented?


5th: Does it draw attention to the performer or to the message?


6th: Who is singing the music? Did you know that there are Catholics and Mormons that also sing the good old hymns?

On the rest of this we are in 100% agreement. I never said that all of CCM's music is even Christian to begin with,they have signed some artists that never claimed to be Christian in the first place but put them under the CCM label. And all of that comes down to discernment.

CCM over the years has lowered the standard a lot. They are part of the problem,and that goes into greed. A lot of the songs they put out now are cheap,shallow and feeble. Can you even tell that the lyrics are even Christian to begin with?

And again you have artists that they should have let go because of their lifestyle,in the same manner that pastors are let go. I well aware of the fact that just as you have country singers that go and sing songs about drinking,hard living and it's OK to do those things,then turn around and throw a couple of gospel songs and everything is right between them and God,because they did a little gospel,it'snot a whole different when you have CCM'ers doing the same thing they did.

Well Sarah, I must admit those are some decent lyrics. The lyrical content for this song would be alright, but again what type of music is petra playing in the background?

Is it the pagan music of rock n' roll? Because if it is, then I am sure that the Lord is not please with it.


5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. - Romans 8:5-10 (KJV)

We cannot please the Lord in the flesh Sarah, so how would fleshly music like rock n' roll be pleasing to Him, even though it falls under the label of Christian praise?

Can you all define where the music crosses over from spiritual to fleshly? Can you define when the rhythm goes from spiritual to fleshly? And again all music forms have been used for all kinds of purposes that do not please God.

And again NOT all music that CCM puts under the Christian label is Christian.

For me it better have deep lyrics otherwise it's nothing more then cotton candy for the ears. It's value is no better. The
main reason I can't stand to listen to Amy Grant. I have found a lot of the so called Christian artists are no better.

 

[SarahM777]

Chosen,

One of the things that for me must be there is the lyric content must be along the same lines as songs like these.

Enter In - Petra

Once a year for sacrifice just one priest could pay the price
And step inside the inner veil to make the people free
Temple stood the same for years till the Nazarene appears
Things will never be the same since 33 A.D.
When He spoke and bowed His head
He who saved the world was dead
Then the earth began to shake
Heaven's wall began to break
Opening the Holy Place
The temple veil is torn in two
The way is clear for me and you

(Chorus)
We can enter in, enter in
Into Heaven's Holy place
We can enter in, enter in
Boldly by His blood we can approach His throne of grace
We can enter in a new and living Way
By our faith He will receive us when we pray

Now without a second look we forget what all it took
To be seen as innocent by His Holy eyes
Never thinking foolishly there is something He won't see
For our lack of righteousness there is no disguise
He won't look the other Way
Someone's life will have to pay
Once for all it has been done
Taken out upon His Son
He remembers it no more
Now for us He is the Door
Opened up forevermore

We can enter in, enter in
We can enter in His gates with thankfulness and praise
Into the once forbidden Holy place
We can live in goodness and in mercy all our days
We can enter in a new and living Way
By our faith He will receive us when we pray
We don't have to be afraid to seek His face
We can enter in

More lyrics: Petra Lyrics

Known by the Scars - Michael Card

Mother Mary cried as she held heaven her arms
For the shadow of the scar she saw was clear
As her own bewildered baby lay weeping for the world
Whose frightened tears would free us all from fear

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars

For a time He sought to tell the world He was the Way
That God the father had a human heart
With His own holy hands He sought
To touch and heal their scars
But they chose to tear those gentle hands apart

What was there to wipe away the tears
Firm the holy eyes of God
[ From: Song Lyrics ]
As He looked upon His one and only Son
Who'd never sin, no nigh, yet was crucified

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars

And after they had slain Him and laid Him in the grave
And the ones He loved had fled into the dark
Then His love and power raised Him
God won the victory
But they only recognized Him by the scars

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars
Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>

A Violent Grace - Michael Card

A mural of memories moves by in a blur
His prayers all seem unanswered and unheard
His pleading petitions, his loud cries and tears
A last reprieve will simply not appear

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

Most willing of victims, And with His final breath
Destroyed the one who holds the power of death
The hate heaped upon Him, scorning all the shame
But all for love He died and overcame

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
[| From: Song Lyrics |]
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

In all of time no one had ever heard
And to the world the thought seemed so absurd
Beyond their wildest dreams no one could ever tell
Of a high priest who would sacrifice Himself

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace 2x
Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>


In any of this can you say that these lyrics would appeal in any way shape or form to the flesh? ​

 

[SarahM777]

Chosen,

Part of the problem also comes when one uses a broad based paint brush to paint all of it as being bad. Can you say that this song is actually bad? (It's not as heavy rock)

A Violent Grace - Michael Card

[video=youtube;NtYZoPS8zik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtYZoPS8zik[/video]

 

[SarahM777]

Okay Sarah you don't like Mike Hoggard, but should that be your standard for truth? I mean is what Mike Hoggard is saying and teaching in that video he did on the Occult in Christian Music, is it true? Does it line up with Scripture? That is what you should ask yourself Sarah.

Does what he say line up with the word of God?


As long as what he is saying lines up with the Scriptures, then it is a good source.

Now how has Mike Hoggard insulted people?

He has done it a couple of times. I have no problem with people speaking out against homosexuality,but leave out the "tinker bell" routine. He did do the limp wrist,fairy guys,never mind the guy that's 6' 4" 300 LBS plays linebacker and goes by the name of Bubba.

We are to be like the Bereans. Test everything. We are not to take everything even our own pastors say as the gospel truth.

And I agree with you that not allowing women to wear necklaces in the church is a little overboard. Let's say I had a wife and if we walked into a Baptist church that tried to get her to sign a form saying that she won't wear any necklaces, I would ask them chapter and verse, please? Where is that taught in the Scriptures?

Now of course, obviously I am not married. I am still single. But I just wanted to give that example though.


Now this is what the Scripture says for women in regard to how they should dress and how they should keep their appearance:


9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. - 1 Timothy 2:9-10 (KJV)


3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. - 1 Peter 3:3-4 (KJV)


Now I don't see in that Scripture where it says that a woman cannot wear a gold necklace or earrings, I think it is more of an heart issue. The context is right there in both of the verses. Which is this, a woman should not be so caught up in herself or outward beauty. Although, she should dress nice and look nice, it is just that she shouldn't let that be her adorning or what she bases her beauty solely on. Furthermore, her beauty should be inward as well as outward. And Obviously a woman can look beautiful and dress herself well without being immodest.

So again Sarah, I agree with you there that no matter what denomination it is, they shouldn't be imposing rules on God's people that are not in the Bible. If the rule that an assembly has cannot be found in the Scriptures, then it is a man made tradition. And that obviously can fall under legalism.

Now having said that Sarah, you do realize that not all Baptists are like that, don't you?

Agreed. And of course I know not all Baptists are like that. But Baptists at times do get a very bad rap from churches like Westboro. (And I have known some like that too)

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Chosen,

One of the things that for me must be there is the lyric content must be along the same lines as songs like these.

Enter In - Petra

Once a year for sacrifice just one priest could pay the price
And step inside the inner veil to make the people free
Temple stood the same for years till the Nazarene appears
Things will never be the same since 33 A.D.
When He spoke and bowed His head
He who saved the world was dead
Then the earth began to shake
Heaven's wall began to break
Opening the Holy Place
The temple veil is torn in two
The way is clear for me and you

(Chorus)
We can enter in, enter in
Into Heaven's Holy place
We can enter in, enter in
Boldly by His blood we can approach His throne of grace
We can enter in a new and living Way
By our faith He will receive us when we pray

Now without a second look we forget what all it took
To be seen as innocent by His Holy eyes
Never thinking foolishly there is something He won't see
For our lack of righteousness there is no disguise
He won't look the other Way
Someone's life will have to pay
Once for all it has been done
Taken out upon His Son
He remembers it no more
Now for us He is the Door
Opened up forevermore

We can enter in, enter in
We can enter in His gates with thankfulness and praise
Into the once forbidden Holy place
We can live in goodness and in mercy all our days
We can enter in a new and living Way
By our faith He will receive us when we pray
We don't have to be afraid to seek His face
We can enter in

More lyrics: Petra Lyrics

Known by the Scars - Michael Card

Mother Mary cried as she held heaven her arms
For the shadow of the scar she saw was clear
As her own bewildered baby lay weeping for the world
Whose frightened tears would free us all from fear

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars

For a time He sought to tell the world He was the Way
That God the father had a human heart
With His own holy hands He sought
To touch and heal their scars
But they chose to tear those gentle hands apart

What was there to wipe away the tears
Firm the holy eyes of God
[ From: Song Lyrics ]
As He looked upon His one and only Son
Who'd never sin, no nigh, yet was crucified

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars

And after they had slain Him and laid Him in the grave
And the ones He loved had fled into the dark
Then His love and power raised Him
God won the victory
But they only recognized Him by the scars

The marks of death that God chose never to erase
The wounds of loves eternal war
When the kingdom comes with its perfected sons
He will be known by the scars
Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>

A Violent Grace - Michael Card

A mural of memories moves by in a blur
His prayers all seem unanswered and unheard
His pleading petitions, his loud cries and tears
A last reprieve will simply not appear

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

Most willing of victims, And with His final breath
Destroyed the one who holds the power of death
The hate heaped upon Him, scorning all the shame
But all for love He died and overcame

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
[| From: Song Lyrics |]
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

In all of time no one had ever heard
And to the world the thought seemed so absurd
Beyond their wildest dreams no one could ever tell
Of a high priest who would sacrifice Himself

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace

So ruthless, He loves us, So reckless His embrace
To show relentless kindness, To a hardened human race
The joy that was before Him
On the Man of Sorrows face
And by His blood He bought a violent grace 2x
Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>


In any of this can you say that these lyrics would appeal in any way shape or form to the flesh? ​

Well I must say that the lyrical content of the first song "Enter In" is alright. But again, what kind of music is Petra playing to this song? Is it the worldly rock n' roll?

Or is it spiritual music?