Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Elizabeth619]

Someone is listening very well John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Unfortunately I can't take credit for it. That's from a website, but I do agree with it if that counts any. The most interesting part of the article for me was the fact that "forever and ever" is the same Greek word to describe Heaven, Gods love and so on.

Yet eternal torment is said to be symbolic. If both words are used the same way then they're both either literal or both symbolic. They cannot be different. If Gods love is literally eternal then eternal torment is eternal as well.

You can't choose what you want to be literal and symbolic.

 

[Alter2Ego]

A most excellent post. You have great understanding of the knowledge of the truth.

Thank you, John832.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Psalms 9:17 says "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God". But the righteous do die and go to the grave so does this mean that both the righteous and the wicked will be turned into hell if hell refers to grave?

ALTER2EGO -to- STARFIELD:
Yes. The word "hell" refers to the common grave of mankind. The fact that righteous and sinless Jesus Christ spent three days there, is proof of that.


"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."(1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption."(Acts 2:31--King James Version)



All humans die and will end up in the grave aka "hell" aka "Sheol" aka "Hades." But while the Bible offers hope of a resurrection for those that are considered righteous as well as unrighteous/vile, it offers no hope of a resurrection for those described as wicked.

"and I have hope toward God,which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)


You quoted Psalms 9:17, but still don't get it that the wicked will simply remain dead, with no hope of a resurrection from the grave.

 

[Michael50]

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses.

Carm.org

(I'm too sick to type so I'll paste articles.)

Elizabeth,

You mentioned Jude 7 and the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah by "eternal fire".

I have to ask,,, Is Sodom and Gommorah still burning? Can we still see the smoke rising from those cities?

No,,, we cannot. It is not the fire that is eternal,,, it is the consequences of the fire that are eternal.

The Bible contains the phrase "...fire will not be quenched." That word "quench" simply means to put out. Eternal Fire goes out,,,after it has done it's consuming work... It will not be quenched (put out). Nothing will remain but ashes. When there is nothing left to burn,,, just like the "eternal fire" that destroyed Sodom & Gommorah,, it goes out. A fire department attempts to quench a house fire. But God has no intention of rescuing the wicked that surround the Holy City Jerusalem. Rev 20:9

Satan is painting God to be a tyrannt with the lie of an eternal torture chamber. He is slandering our Creator!

 

[Alter2Ego]

It shows that the soul can be killed. It also says that the soul is destroyed , in hell. That is all. The Soul , is you..

ALTER2EGO -to- NATHAN3:
Please don't think I am trying to put you on the spot. This is simply a discussion in which I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

You said the soul can be killed and that the soul is "you" (meaning the person). In that case, I can't figure the point you were making at Post 3 where you said the following:

This shows , like all the bible does, That hell is the death of the soul, where it applies, and you did bring out some of the meanings of the words .

Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Also hell does not come into existence until after the Lords day. written of in Revelation .


Here is a study to help you along some more :

If the soul is killed, I don't see how hell coming "into existence after the Lords day" in Revelation will have any effect on a soul that has already been killed. Please explain.

 

[Shiloah]

Unfortunately I can't take credit for it. That's from a website, but I do agree with it if that counts any. The most interesting part of the article for me was the fact that "forever and ever" is the same Greek word to describe Heaven, Gods love and so on.

Yet eternal torment is said to be symbolic. If both words are used the same way then they're both either literal or both symbolic. They cannot be different. If Gods love is literally eternal then eternal torment is eternal as well.

You can't choose what you want to be literal and symbolic.

Actually, it goes deeper than that. That original word translated into the word eternal can also mean for an age, as in, it can also imply duration as well as never-ending. The point is, we cannot ignore all the other verses in the Bible that say the wages of sin is death and that God destroys and that His enemies will be ashes beneath our feet when we read verses that use the word eternal in them. Obviously we can't have a fully accurate meaning of those few verses or those verses would not contradict all the other verses in the Bible that say when we die we're dead: our thoughts die, our plans die, etc. We're dead.

An example is this: eternal destruction is eternal. Death, as a consequence, is eternal. However, eternal life is going to be living eternally. But again, the biggest point here is that the Bible will contradict itself if we interpret these few verses to mean eternal in the way our culture today understands eternal. That's exactly where the confusion lies.

Why would Christ say that through Him we can have eternal life if we already have eternal life? Obviously we don't if He doesn't give it to us.

Samuel's mother said she would bring Samuel to the temple were he would abide forever. Samuel is obviously not still sitting in that temple. Such examples appear all throughout scriptures that represent this issue.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I believe the soul is a living being, Alter2ego. That's actually what many translations call it in Genesis 2:7. Here's a few examples. Note: only the KJV uses the word "soul" in this verse among these translations. The others call the soul a living being, a living person, or a living creature.

New International Version (©2011)
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.
English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
Excellent. I am glad you grasp the significance of Genesis 2:7--that the soul is the entire man, Adam, as a living being and not some invisible being within the first man, Adam.

Hellfire howlers insist that the soul is something that lives on after the person dies physically. That's why I asked Nathan3 to explain to me his/her understanding of what the "soul" is. Nathan3 admits the soul can be killed and that the soul is "you" (the person). But then Nathan3 proceeds to make statements about hell going into effect after the Lords day in Revelation, which suggests Nathan3 thinks hell is a place of literal fiery torment.

The reality is that hell has always been in effect because the word "hell" is merely a synonym for "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave" of mankind.

 

[Shiloah]

The English word eternal was also used to translate a word that actually meant unquenchable in the OT a few times, such as the "eternal" fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I think there are two places in scriptures that say that how Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed exemplifies how the world will be destroyed after the last judgement. That fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is clearly still not burning; however, it was unquenchable, as in, it could not be put out until absolutely everything in that area was entirely consumed.

 

[Shiloah]

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
Excellent. I am glad you grasp the significance of Genesis 2:7--that the soul is the entire man, Adam, as a living being and not some invisible being within the first man, Adam.

Hellfire howlers insist that the soul is something that lives on after the person dies physically. That's why I asked Nathan3 to explain to me his/her understanding of what the "soul" is. Nathan3 admits the soul can be killed and that the soul is "you" (the person). But then Nathan3 proceeds to make statements about hell going into effect after the Lords day in Revelation, which suggests Nathan3 thinks hell is a place of literal fiery torment.

The reality is that hell has always been in effect because the word "hell" is merely a synonym for "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave" of mankind.

I haven't got the impression that Nathan believes in a never ending fire in which sinners will be consciously tortured never ending. I think he believes as I do, that hellfire will come about after the last judgement when the earth is being destroyed by fire into which all those not written in the lambs book of life along with the devil and his angel will go into and be entirely and wholly destroyed-- yeah, for all time.

 

[danschance]

The common word for grave in Hebrew is not sheol, it is the word qeber.

For example: "Thou shalt come to [thy] grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season." Job 5:26
Strong's list qeber (keh-bear) as "1) grave, sepulchre, tomb. In the AV-KJV it is translated as grave 35 times, sepulchre 25 times and buryingplace 6 times.

Uses of Sheol vs. qeber

1. Sheol is never used in plural form. Queber is used in the plural 29 times.
2. It is never said that the body goes to Sheol. Queber speaks of the body going there 37 times.
3. Sheol is never said to be located on the face of the earth. Queber is mentioned 32 times as being located on the earth.
4. An individual’s Sheol is never mentioned. An individual’s queber is mentioned 5 times.
5. Man is never said to put anyone into Sheol. Individuals are put into a queber by man (33 times).
6. Man is never said to have dug or fashioned a Sheol. Man is said to have dug, or fashioned, a queber (6 times).
7. Man is never said to have touched Sheol. Man touches, or can touch, a queber (5 times).
8. It is never said that man is able to possess a Sheol. Man is spoken of as being able to possess a queber (7 times). (These eight points of comparison are adapted from “Life and Death” by Caleb J. Baker, Bible Institute Colportage Ass’n, 1941).

(This is from: Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave | Berean Bible Society

 

[danschance]

Sheol (Written by Don Stewart)

The Hebrew word "Sheol" is often translated "hell" in the English versions. However this gives the wrong inference. It is never used of the final destination of the wicked. Sheol is used in Old Testament in basically five ways:

1. The unseen realm of the dead

2. The grave - the actual place where bodies are buried

3. Specifically, the place of punishment for the wicked

4. Symbolically

5. The place from where the righteous are saved

The exact meaning of Sheol is hard to determine - it can overlap these categories. Consequently it is essential to check out the context to find the correct meaning of Sheol each time it is used.

From: Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

 

[Shiloah]

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
Excellent. I am glad you grasp the significance of Genesis 2:7--that the soul is the entire man, Adam, as a living being and not some invisible being within the first man, Adam.

Hellfire howlers insist that the soul is something that lives on after the person dies physically. That's why I asked Nathan3 to explain to me his/her understanding of what the "soul" is. Nathan3 admits the soul can be killed and that the soul is "you" (the person). But then Nathan3 proceeds to make statements about hell going into effect after the Lords day in Revelation, which suggests Nathan3 thinks hell is a place of literal fiery torment.

The reality is that hell has always been in effect because the word "hell" is merely a synonym for "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave" of mankind.

Sorry for all these replies, but I think Nathan is talking about hellfire which, yeah, comes about after the day of the Lord. Again, hellfire is where the earth is destroyed by fire, and that won't happen until after the last judgement. Certainly Sheol and Hades mean the grave. Tartarus; however, mentioned only in Jude, is where the fallen angels are kept in chains. That's something different.

 

[Shiloah]

The common word for grave in Hebrew is not sheol, it is the word qeber.

For example: "Thou shalt come to [thy] grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season." Job 5:26
Strong's list qeber (keh-bear) as "1) grave, sepulchre, tomb. In the AV-KJV it is translated as grave 35 times, sepulchre 25 times and buryingplace 6 times.

Uses of Sheol vs. qeber

1. Sheol is never used in plural form. Queber is used in the plural 29 times.
2. It is never said that the body goes to Sheol. Queber speaks of the body going there 37 times.
3. Sheol is never said to be located on the face of the earth. Queber is mentioned 32 times as being located on the earth.
4. An individual’s Sheol is never mentioned. An individual’s queber is mentioned 5 times.
5. Man is never said to put anyone into Sheol. Individuals are put into a queber by man (33 times).
6. Man is never said to have dug or fashioned a Sheol. Man is said to have dug, or fashioned, a queber (6 times).
7. Man is never said to have touched Sheol. Man touches, or can touch, a queber (5 times).
8. It is never said that man is able to possess a Sheol. Man is spoken of as being able to possess a queber (7 times). (These eight points of comparison are adapted from “Life and Death” by Caleb J. Baker, Bible Institute Colportage Ass’n, 1941).

(This is from: Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave | Berean Bible Society

Once again, you are basing your argument on the premise that the soul is immortal. Otherwise, when man dies, he descends into Sheol. Period. As for your argument as a whole, I've no freaking idea what you're point is. lol.

 

[Shiloah]

Sheol (Written by Don Stewart)

The Hebrew word "Sheol" is often translated "hell" in the English versions. However this gives the wrong inference. It is never used of the final destination of the wicked. Sheol is used in Old Testament in basically five ways:

1. The unseen realm of the dead

2. The grave - the actual place where bodies are buried

3. Specifically, the place of punishment for the wicked

4. Symbolically

5. The place from where the righteous are saved

The exact meaning of Sheol is hard to determine - it can overlap these categories. Consequently it is essential to check out the context to find the correct meaning of Sheol each time it is used.

From: Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

Sheol isn't the final word. The wicked are also resurrected to stand before the judgement. Then they're torched with hell fire. There's your hell fire and your punishment.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Sounds like more of a tickle my ear, so i don't have to believe people go to hell

No on ever argues against the idea of Heaven, because they think they are good enough to go

This might be more of a revelation for tares, Jesus Christ talked more about hell then anyone else

 

[thecreationtutor]

James MacDonald sermon: What's Down with Hell - YouTube

Great actual exegetic study on Hell, a lot more trustworthy

 

[Alter2Ego]

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIZABETH 619:
The implication of your opening comment is not lost on me. You opened with: "eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept," after which you led right into the contrast of Jehovah's "gentle" side and the fact that he punishes sinners. You are attempting to use those contrasts to argue literal hellfire torment in support of your opening statement: that the concept of eternal punishment is difficult for some people to swallow while you imply it is indeed a Bible teaching. The latter is incorrect.


You failed to prove that literal hellfire torment is a Bible teaching for the following reason: None of the verses that you lined up next to "God punishes the sinner" are talking literal hellfire torment. They are all referring to annihilation. In other words, the individuals died quickly (at Jeremiah 50:31 and Ezekiel 44:12) and those that will die in the future (as prophesied at Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 2:9; Hebrews. 10:29) will likewise die quickly. Let me demonstrate by quoting the verses you presented from the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament.


"'See, I am your enemy, you arrogant people,'" says the Lord, the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "'Your day of reckoning has arrived--the day when I will punish you.'" (Jeremiah 50:31 -- New Living Translation)

The context (the surrounding verses) to Jeremiah 50:31 is God warning Babylon (at Jeremiah 50:35-37) that he will bring the sword against its inhabitants. Killing people with the sword renders them dead quickly aka annihilation, rather than eternal torment.



"Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn concerning them, declares the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their punishment." (Ezekiel 44:12 -- English Standard Version)

The context (the surrounding words within the verse) to Ezekiel 44:12 is God informing the ancient Israelites why he allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by the Babylonians: specifically, because of idolatry. He told them that it was because the Levites had "ministered to them before their idols." So God withdrew his protection from his chosen people, the ancient Israelites, and allowed the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and to take the surviving Israelites into captivity. Nobody suffered hellfire torment. They simply died aka annihilation or else they were kept in Babylonian captivity as punishment.


All of the remaining verses are from the New Testament (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 2:9; Hebrews. 10:29), and they are all talking about annihilation based upon their context.

 

[danschance]

Looks like the Seventh day cult is now in agreement with the cult of Russel.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I haven't got the impression that Nathan believes in a never ending fire in which sinners will be consciously tortured never ending. I think he believes as I do, that hellfire will come about after the last judgement when the earth is being destroyed by fire into which all those not written in the lambs book of life along with the devil and his angel will go into and be entirely and wholly destroyed-- yeah, for all time.

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
The Bible does not teach that the earth will be literally destroyed by fire or by anything else, for that matter. Please quote the verses where you are getting the understanding that earth will be destroyed. Quote no more than four (4) verses at a time. We will examine the verses against Biblical context. After that, you may then quote another four verses.

 

[Shiloah]

Sounds like more of a tickle my ear, so i don't have to believe people go to hell

No on ever argues against the idea of Heaven, because they think they are good enough to go

This might be more of a revelation for tares, Jesus Christ talked more about hell then anyone else

Have you listened to Nathan's video or read through the thread points? I so often see people just repeat like parrots what they've been told without ever reconsidering their stance by actually looking at all the scriptural references as well as the definitions of words in English as compared to the words they were translated from in the old texts. Why don't you try that for a change?