Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Alter2Ego]

Sounds like more of a tickle my ear, so i don't have to believe people go to hell

No on ever argues against the idea of Heaven, because they think they are good enough to go

This might be more of a revelation for tares, Jesus Christ talked more about hell then anyone else

ALTER2EGO -to- THE CREATION TUTOR:
The context to all of Jesus' teachings is that he was using parables aka illustrations. And throughout his illustrations, he used figurative terms that were not to be taken literally.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


Notice that the above verse clearly says Jesus always taught with illustrations. So as soon as you can locate a comment by him about hell or Gehenna or eternal torment, etc. where he is not using it within an illustration, be sure and post it here for the rest of us to see it. Be sure and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse so that we can locate it in our own copies of the Bible.

 

[Michael50]

Sodom & Gommorah were destroyed with "eternal fire",,, !!!!! Can anybody who believes that "eternal fire' burns forever and ever, explain why Sodom & Gommorah are not still burning and the smoke still rising from those burning cities?

Or could it be, that the fire itself is not eternal,,, just the consequences of that fire?

 

[Shiloah]

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
The Bible does not teach that the earth will be literally destroyed by fire or by anything else, for that matter. Please quote the verses where you are getting the understanding that earth will be destroyed. Quote no more than four (4) verses at a time. We will examine the verses against Biblical context. After that, you may then quote another four verses.

2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare... since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?

(Then God will make a new heaven and new earth).

 

[Shiloah]

Sodom & Gommorah were destroyed with "eternal fire",,, !!!!! Can anybody who believes that "eternal fire' burns forever and ever, explain why Sodom & Gommorah are not still burning and the smoke still rising from those burning cities?

Or could it be, that the fire itself is not eternal,,, just the consequences of that fire?

I've heard said that eternal in that sense means unquenchable, which makes sense as well.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Looks like the Seventh day cult is now in agreement with the cult of Russel.

ALTER2EGO -to- DANSCHANCE:
Guess what? By definition, all religions are classified as "cults."


"Definition of CULT
1 : formal religious veneration: worship

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator

5 (a) : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

(b) : the object of such devotion

(c) : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion"

Cult - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



As you can see by definitions 1 and 2 and 3 above, ANY type of religion is considered a cult whether "formal" on the one end or "unorthodox" at the opposite extreme. So where does that leave you? If you are in a religion, go figure.

 

[nathan3]

ALTER2EGO -to- NATHAN3:
Please don't think I am trying to put you on the spot. This is simply a discussion in which I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

You said the soul can be killed and that the soul is "you" (meaning the person). In that case, I can't figure the point you were making at Post 3 where you said the following:





If the soul is killed, I don't see how hell coming "into existence after the Lords day" in Revelation will have any effect on a soul that has already been killed. Please explain.

What I simply said, is , no one has acutally been put to death Yet in hell. hell, that is the lake of fire, as written of near the end of revelation, shows, it exist ( the lake of fire ) only at the end of the LORD's day, that 1000 year time, and Satan is let loose one last time,to test, and the people that follow him then, knowing full well who he is, go into the lake of fire, that is the 2nd death. the death of the soul ( Revelation 20:6; Revelation 20:14 ) , as we just read from the other verse i quoted .

 

[Elizabeth619]

So if Hell isn't eternal torment then why do people fear it so much?
If I die and don't make it to Heaven then it seems that isn't a big deal. I might be tortured, but only for a while. So if there is no eternal punishment then maybe I should stop trying so hard to be a good person. I really have nothing to fear after death. If I don't receive eternal life then Ohh well. I'll just cease to exist.

I also guess the story Jesus told if the rich man and Lazarus was a complete lie told by Jesus. He depicted the "afterlife" in a false way. The wicked don't receive torment. They aren't aware after death.

I guess what I'm saying us I'm trying too hard to follow God. Thanks guys for pointing it out to me. It's obvious from this teaching that hell isn't a big deal and there really is nothing to fear.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I think I'll just stop attending church too and just take the chance.
I'm so glad to know that Satan hasn't won me over...... :/

 

[danschance]

So if Hell isn't eternal torment then why do people fear it so much?
If I die and don't make it to Heaven then it seems that isn't a big deal. I might be tortured, but only for a while. So if there is no eternal punishment then maybe I should stop trying so hard to be a good person. I really have nothing to fear after death. If I don't receive eternal life then Ohh well. I'll just cease to exist.

I also guess the story Jesus told if the rich man and Lazarus was a com

I agree Elizabeth.

Jesus warned of Hell more than he mentioned Heaven. Now why would Jesus warn us about hell, if death is the end of the wicked? Shiloah said that God would resurrect the wicked just to torch them and then they die again. What nonsense.

 

[nathan3]

So if Hell isn't eternal torment then why do people fear it so much?
If I die and don't make it to Heaven then it seems that isn't a big deal. I might be tortured, but only for a while. So if there is no eternal punishment then maybe I should stop trying so hard to be a good person. I really have nothing to fear after death. If I don't receive eternal life then Ohh well. I'll just cease to exist.

I also guess the story Jesus told if the rich man and Lazarus was a com

Its not a con what Christ said, in the parable, its a parable, about real people, but showing you how things really are.

What is a figure of speech you should understand is, the , fire is one of emotions that he did not make it, he is still in judgement .Not that he is in litteral flames. its a figure of speech the bible always used .

Its just a matter of us recognizing what we are reading, and the figures of speech when we see them.The hebrew sayings.

And, throwing his children into fire to burn is not in God's character, and it never was.

Just because we cant seem to understand parables and figures of speech used in the bible does not negate what we do understand, and should accept



Matthew 10:28.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jeremiah 32:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


So we see God is not in the habit of burning people.. The bible is not a hollywood movie. and we should remove those images from our mind about this. The Bible however, was not written in English, and at some point, we should mature enough to study it into the languages it was written in.


And God is not about scaring people into loving him... If people have a attitude to God, and want to sin, let them sin still. That is their choice, and let them have a nice trip .

 

[Alter2Ego]

2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare... since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?

(Then God will make a new heaven and new earth).

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
You are quoting from the book of 2 Peter, which contains several examples of figurative or symbolic speech. But you decided to cherry picking a single scriptural account from within it to support your ideology that the earth will be literally destroyed, and with fire.


Figurative language is often used in the Bible when prophetic events are being spoken of, and that's what's going with this example you provided. Simon Peter is describing prophetic events that have not yet occurred, and as is frequently done during prophecy, he is using figurative speech.


Figurative/symbolic language has a much deeper meaning than its face value. That's why it is important to pay attention to context when reading the Bible. Let us look at the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.

2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare... since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?

Notice that I bolded the portion that speaks of the heavens disappearing. That is the first clue that this is not literal. Here's why? We know that the literal heavens will never disappear, because the Bible says the heavens is where Jehovah abides and that it is a holy place.

"Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah-in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men." (Psalms 11:4)




Since, logically, Jehovah will not destroy his own holy place (the literal heavens), then the portion about the earth being destroyed by fire likewise cannot be literal because it is part of the same prophetic event being described. Notice more of the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.


"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19 -- New American Standard Bible)




Notice that Simon Peter makes it clear that he's talking about prophecy. He then uses the expression about: "the morning star arises in your hearts." Is that literal? Does a literal star rise in anyone's literal heart? Notice more of the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.


"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." (2 Peter 2:17)



Would you believe 2 Peter 2:17 is talking about people and not literal wells or literal clouds? It is figurative or symbolic speech. The verse at 2 Peter 2:18 goes on to clarify what types of people are being described. By the time we reach 2 Peter 3:11-13, which you quoted, we begin to understand that it is all part of the symbolic/figurative language that is used to describe people.

 

[Elizabeth619]

ALTER2EGO -to- SHILOAH:
You are quoting from the book of 2 Peter, which contains several examples of figurative or symbolic speech. But you decided to cherry picking a single scriptural account from within it to support your ideology that the earth will be literally destroyed, and with fire.


Figurative language is often used in the Bible when prophetic events are being spoken of, and that's what's going with this example you provided. Simon Peter is describing prophetic events that have not yet occurred, and as is frequently done during prophecy, he is using figurative speech.


Figurative/symbolic language has a much deeper meaning than its face value. That's why it is important to pay attention to context when reading the Bible. Let us look at the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.



Notice that I bolded the portion that speaks of the heavens disappearing. That is the first clue that this is not literal. Here's why? We know that the literal heavens will never disappear, because the Bible says the heavens is where Jehovah abides and that it is a holy place.

"Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah-in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men." (Psalms 11:4)




Since, logically, Jehovah will not destroy his own holy place (the literal heavens), then the portion about the earth being destroyed by fire likewise cannot be literal because it is part of the same prophetic event being described. Notice more of the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.


"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19 -- New American Standard Bible)




Notice that Simon Peter makes it clear that he's talking about prophecy. He then uses the expression about: "the morning star arises in your hearts." Is that literal? Does a literal star rise in anyone's literal heart? Notice more of the context to 2 Peter 3:10-11.


"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." (2 Peter 2:17)



Would you believe 2 Peter 2:17 is talking about people and not literal wells with or clouds? It is figurative or symbolic speech. The verse at 2 Peter 2:18 goes on to clarify what types of people are being described. By the time we reach 2 Peter 3:11-13, which you quoted, we begin to understand that it is all part of the symbolic/figurative language that is used to describe people.

What's your denomination? I want to learn.

 

[danschance]

Its not a con what Christ said, in the parable, its a parable, about real people, but showing you how things really are.

What is a figure of speech you should understand is, the , fire is one of emotions that he did not make it, he is still in judgement .Not that he is in litteral flames. its a figure of speech the bible always used .

Its just a matter of us recognizing what we are reading, and the figures of speech when we see them.The hebrew sayings.

And, throwing his children into fire to burn is not in God's character, and it never was.

Just because we cant seem to understand parables and figures of speech used in the bible does not negate what we do understand, and should accept



Matthew 10:28.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jeremiah 32:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


So we see God is not in the habit of burning people.. The bible is not a hollywood movie. and we should remove those images from our mind about this. The Bible however, was not written in English, and at some point, we should mature enough to study it into the languages it was written in.

Yeah, right... it is a "parable" wink, wink.

1) What a ridicules argument. It is a story not a parable! No parable ever includes the names of real people.

2) Even if it is a parable it is still about Hell. WHy would Jesus add a "parable" of hell if hell is not real? Jesus would never tell a "parable" if it was not about true?

Jesus said "22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.." Luke 16:22

Why would Jesus say that after Lazarus died the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, if there is no such place? Why would Jesus even talk about life after death if it is not real? Why would Jesus say the rich man was in torment after death if this is not true for some?

Jesus used parables to teach kingdom principles. The only principle I can see taught in this "parable" is that we are warned of Hell. We are informed of a reward or a dire punishment. Unless you plan on twisting this further.

Utterly ridicules.

 

[nathan3]

Yeah, right... it is a "parable" wink, wink.

1) What a ridicules argument. It is a story not a parable! No parable ever includes the names of real people.

2) Even if it is a parable it is still about Hell. WHy would Jesus add a "parable" of hell if hell is not real? Jesus would never tell a "parable" if it was not about true?

Jesus said "22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.." Luke 16:22

Why would Jesus say that after Lazarus died the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, if there is no such place? Why would Jesus even talk about life after death if it is not real? Why would Jesus say the rich man was in torment after death if this is not true for some?

Jesus used parables to teach kingdom principles. The only principle I can see taught in this "parable" is that we are warned of Hell. We are informed of a reward or a dire punishment. Unless you plan on twisting this further.

Utterly ridicules.

Well your choosing to ignore the scriptures posted below in the other post about this. . And I did say it Was a true account. But presented in a parable. And to give you an father, example .

To show an example. and to try to illustrate farther, what a figure of speech looks like in the Bible.

I will post the parable, of Lazarus and the Rich man. Where it shows the burning. And I will post a scripture, for burning, in a emotional state as well.

Luke 16:24

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

( In the course of study, you should find, that this flame is and torment, is the Rich man describing his emotions about the situation he finds himself in. Which is basically prison, a gulf between him and God, that he cannot cross without Christ . This is the situation he is in, awaiting Judgment day. And you can read the full account and no doubt hes distressed about it and in immense Shame. Not pain. )

Another example of using this form of a figure of speech in a slightly different way:


1 Corinthians 7:9



9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

( In this case, its to burn with Passion . Not a literal burning, following the subject of its better to marry some one then to burn in a sexual way for some one. In that case, get married. )


Romans 1:27



27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

( In this case, its used in the same sense, but here its speaking about a sin here )

 

[Elizabeth619]

I agree Elizabeth.

Jesus warned of Hell more than he mentioned Heaven. Now why would Jesus warn us about hell, if death is the end of the wicked? Shiloah said that God would resurrect the wicked just to torch them and then they die again. What nonsense.

And according to Alter the earth will not be destroyed.
Welcome to the world of Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Alter2Ego]

What I simply said, is , no one has acutally been put to death Yet in hell. hell, that is the lake of fire, as written of near the end of revelation, shows, it exist ( the lake of fire ) only at the end of the LORD's day, that 1000 year time, and Satan is let loose one last time,to test, and the people that follow him then, knowing full well who he is, go into the lake of fire, that is the 2nd death. the death of the soul ( Revelation 20:6; Revelation 20:14 ) , as we just read from the other verse i quoted .

ALTER2EGO -to- NATHAN3:
The "lake of fire" and "hell" are not the same thing. The word "hell" aka "Hades" refers to mankind's common grave. The "lake of fire" is the synonym for "Gehenna." The Lake of fire/Gehenna refers to permanent destruction or permanent death from which there can be no resurrection. In fact, Revelation 20:14 shows that "hell" and "the lake of fire" are not one and the same. Notice this.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- King James Version)


"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- New International Version)


Notice that the verse clearly states that hell or Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire and that the lake of fire represents "the second death." The term "the second death" is with reference to permanent destruction or permanent death.


QUESTION #1 to NATHAN3: If hell/Hades is the same as the "lake of fire" how could hell then be cast into the lake of fire since they are supposedly the same place?


QUESTION #2 to NATHAN3: If hell/Hades is a place of literal fiery torment, how is hell/Hades then moved (like something that can be moved) and cast into the lake of fire where it is then put to death (the second death)?


QUESTION #3 to NATHAN3: Are you telling me that hell/Hades can be put to death, literally?



Nathan3, the above are rhetorical questions that you need not answer on this forum. They are intended to give anyone something to reflect on; okay? So don't answer them here on the forum as you are not required to do so.

 

[nathan3]

And according to Alter the earth will not be destroyed.
Welcome to the world of Jehovah's Witness.

Actually, that is a very common belief . I say it is scripture. The problem here is, that people fail to see the Bible was Not written in English. And there are other things to learn here.

 

[nathan3]

ALTER2EGO -to- NATHAN3:
The "lake of fire" and "hell" are not the same thing. The word "hell" aka "Hades" refers to mankind's common grave. The "lake of fire" is the synonym for "Gehenna." The Lake of fire/Gehenna refers to permanent destruction or permanent death from which there can be no resurrection. In fact, Revelation 20:14 shows that "hell" and "the lake of fire" are not one and the same. Notice this.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- King James Version)


"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- New International Version)


Notice that the verse clearly states that hell or Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire and that the lake of fire represents "the second death." The term "the second death" is with reference to permanent destruction or permanent death.


QUESTION #1 to NATHAN3: If hell/Hades is the same as the "lake of fire" how could hell then be cast into the lake of fire since they are supposedly the same place?


QUESTION #2 to NATHAN3: If hell/Hades is a place of literal fiery torment, how is hell/Hades then moved (like something that can be moved) and cast into the lake of fire where it is then put to death (the second death)?


QUESTION #3 to NATHAN3: Are you telling me that hell/Hades can be put to death, literally?



Nathan3, the above are rhetorical questions that you need not answer on this forum. They are intended to give anyone something to reflect on; okay? So don't answer them here on the forum as you are not required to do so.

Well I think you have some things off coarse . Lets look up some of these words. please. I need time. And I will post some accurate meanings here. The problem here is, its not written in English. ..... I need time to explain this. It might be a day or two, before I respond. But I will post some definitions in the mean time.

 

[danschance]

Well your choosing to ignore the scriptures posted below in the other post about this. . And I did say it Was a true account. But presented in a parable. And to give you an father, example .

To show an example. and to try to illustrate farther, what a figure of speech looks like in the Bible.

I will post the parable, of Lazarus and the Rich man. Where it shows the burning. And I will post a scripture, for burning, in a emotional state as well.

Luke 16:24

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

( In the course of study, you should find, that this flame is and torment, is the Rich man describing his emotions about the situation he finds himself in. Which is basically prison, a gulf between him and God, that he cannot cross without Christ . This is the situation he is in, awaiting Judgment day. And you can read the full account and no doubt hes distressed about it and in immense Shame. Not pain. )

Another example of using this form of a figure of speech in a slightly different way:


1 Corinthians 7:9



9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

( In this case, its to burn with Passion . Not a literal burning, following the subject of its better to marry some one then to burn in a sexual way for some one. In that case, get married. )


Romans 1:27



27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

( In this case, its used in the same sense, but here its speaking about a sin here )

That is called "scripture twisting".

[video=youtube;9SocmfWDMbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SocmfWDMbg[/video]

 

[Laodicea]

Sodom & Gommorah were destroyed with "eternal fire",,, !!!!! Can anybody who believes that "eternal fire' burns forever and ever, explain why Sodom & Gommorah are not still burning and the smoke still rising from those burning cities?

Or could it be, that the fire itself is not eternal,,, just the consequences of that fire?

I agree they are not burning by any stretch of the imagination. It says in Jude that they are an example of what will happen.