Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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L

Laodicea

Guest
#141
#141
Shiloah said:
If the thief went to heaven that very day, then Jesus lied. Jesus wasn't in heaven that very day. The fact is, on the third day after He'd been raised from the dead and Mary saw Him in the garden, what did Jesus say to her? He said "don't cling to me for I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER." Jesus Himself said He wasn't in Paradise on the same day that He died, so again, no matter what way you look at it, Jesus wasn't telling the thief that they would be together on that same day.
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I agree that the thief never went to paradise the that day. They were still alive when Jesus died and broke their legs to put them up later. According to the Bible paradise is where the tree of life is, where God's throne is and Jesus made it plain after His resurrection He had not yet accended to the Father.

danschance who I quoted likes to say paradise is somewhere else and likes to base things on opinnion.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#142
#142
Jesus' body hadn't ascended to Father God at that time. But what about Christ, the Word of God, The Eternal Son of God himself, who is omnipresent?
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#143
#143
Laodicea said:
I agree that the thief never went to paradise the that day. They were still alive when Jesus died and broke their legs to put them up later. According to the Bible paradise is where the tree of life is, where God's throne is and Jesus made it plain after His resurrection He had not yet accended to the Father.

danschance who I quoted likes to say paradise is somewhere else and likes to base things on opinnion.
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I hate to say this word, but I'm assuming you don't quite understand Ephesians 4:7-10

So tell me then, where did our Lord's spirit descend and ascend or went to after death? If not sheol or Hades or paradise?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#144
#144
Bryancampbell said:
I hate to say this word, but I'm assuming you don't quite understand Ephesians 4:7-10

So tell me then, where did our Lord's spirit descend and ascend or went to after death? If not sheol or Hades or paradise?
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Ephesians 4:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:41
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#145
#145
Laodicea said:
Ephesians 4:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:41
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Click to expand...
Fill in the gaps of what you see that you highlighted, notice also you didn't highlight ascend that Ephesians context...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#146
#146
Bryancampbell said:
I hate to say this word, but I'm assuming you don't quite understand Ephesians 4:7-10

So tell me then, where did our Lord's spirit descend and ascend or went to after death? If not sheol or Hades or paradise?
Click to expand...
Since ascended in those verses in Ephesians means going to heaven then descended means coming down from heaven, that is the context and what Jesus said in the verses I quoted.
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#147
#147
Bryancampbell said:
Fill in the gaps of what you see that you highlighted, notice also you didn't highlight ascend that Ephesians context...
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When I mean gaps I mean your doctrine your clipping on this artwork?
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#148
#148
Ephesians 4 about ascend and descend is actually quoting and fulfilling Psalms 68:18. so yea i believe it means the earth.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#149
#149
Shiloah said:
If the thief went to heaven that very day, then Jesus lied. Jesus wasn't in heaven that very day. The fact is, on the third day after He'd been raised from the dead and Mary saw Him in the garden, what did Jesus say to her? He said "don't cling to me for I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER." Jesus Himself said He wasn't in Paradise on the same day that He died, so again, no matter what way you look at it, Jesus wasn't telling the thief that they would be together on that same day.
Click to expand...
I see a difference between Heaven and paradise. Sheol or Hades had two compartments separated by an uncrossable chasm (Luke 16:26). One of torment ( Luke 16:23) and the other compartment was called Abraham's bosom Luke 16:24). We also know the after Jesus died, he went to Hades to set the captives free (Eph. 4:8-10).

The only thing that makes sense is that the compartment many call Abraham's bosom must also be Paradise. Of this, Matt Slick, the Christian apologist, says:

"Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions, the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.”

So I agree that Jesus went to Paradise to set the captives free which is down below and then ascended up to His Father later.

Thanks, Shiloah, this was very interesting and I now am certain Paradise is not necessarily synonymous with Heaven.
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#150
#150
The lost and redeemed were in Hades before Jesus's crucifixion. Hebrew She'ol. In the description of Abraham bosom mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, that was a place separated in Hades called paradise. when Jesus told the thief about God's paradise that he will be in that day, he was confirming that through the resurrection during his death he will lead the "captivity captive" who are the saints of the old covenant, to be removed from Hades and lead to heaven.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#151
#151
Laodicea said:
Since ascended in those verses in Ephesians means going to heaven then descended means coming down from heaven, that is the context and what Jesus said in the verses I quoted.
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Can you prove that descended in this context specifically is referring to "descending from Heaven?

Otherwise this is just you opinion.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#152
#152
Bryancampbell said:
The lost and redeemed were in Hades before Jesus's crucifixion. Hebrew She'ol. In the description of Abraham bosom mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, that was a place separated in Hades called paradise. when Jesus told the thief about God's paradise that he will be in that day, he was confirming that through the resurrection during his death he will lead the "captivity captive" who are the saints of the old covenant, to be removed from Hades and lead to heaven.
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Amen brother. You hit the nail on the head.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#154
#154
Laodicea said:
Ephesians 4:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:41
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Click to expand...

No, this is not going to work. You are saying Jesus descended from Heaven because other passages say that. However, you are comparing apples to oranges. John chapters 3 and 6 have nothing to with Jesus ascending or descending after His resurrection. So you are taking things way out of context her. I hope you can see what I am saying.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#155
#155
Laodicea said:
I agree that the thief never went to paradise the that day. They were still alive when Jesus died and broke their legs to put them up later. According to the Bible paradise is where the tree of life is, where God's throne is and Jesus made it plain after His resurrection He had not yet accended to the Father.

danschance who I quoted likes to say paradise is somewhere else and likes to base things on opinnion.
Click to expand...
If you believe that the thief on the cross did not go to Paradise that day, then you do not believe what the bible says and you trust more in your own beliefs (opinions?) than in the bible.

The bible does say the thief died soon after Jesus died.:

31Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away. John 19:31
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Breaking the legs during crucifixion accelerates death via suffocation. They had just discovered Jesus was dead and soon the other two would be dead. It is very likely the criminal died the very same day as Jesus.

Seriously, just trust the bible and do not lean on your own understanding.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#156
#156
so actually to answer the thread, which one is referred by 'hell' according to the starter of the thread, Sheol/Hades or Gehenna or another place maybe?
 
S

Syphon

Guest
#157
#157
From what I been told, Sin is rebellion against an eternal creator meriting eternal punishment, any thoughts? .-.
 
S

Syphon

Guest
#158
#158
I didn't realise there was 8 pages, I only read the first XD
 
D

danschance

Guest
#159
#159
leonardronaldo said:
so actually to answer the thread, which one is referred by 'hell' according to the starter of the thread, Sheol/Hades or Gehenna or another place maybe?
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From what I understand...

Shoel in the Old Testament is Hades in the New Testament.
Which had two compartments, before the resurrection of Christ.
One compartment is a place for the damned, a place of torment, called Hell.
The other is a place where the Saints waited until after the death of Christ, where He liberated them and brought them into Heaven.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#160
#160
Syphon said:
From what I been told, Sin is rebellion against an eternal creator meriting eternal punishment, any thoughts? .-.
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Sounds about right, except the punishment for sin is separation from God. I personally believe Hell is a temporary place of torment by demons, not God.
 
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