Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[john832]

Jesus' body hadn't ascended to Father God at that time. But what about Christ, the Word of God, The Eternal Son of God himself, who is omnipresent?

He DIED for your sins. He didn't shed a husk or molt like a lizard, He literally DIED to pay for our sins.

 

[john832]

I see a difference between Heaven and paradise.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't confuse it with fact...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul plainly shows here that the Third Heaven is Paradise. They are one in the same.

Sheol or Hades had two compartments separated by an uncrossable chasm (Luke 16:26). One of torment ( Luke 16:23) and the other compartment was called Abraham's bosom Luke 16:24).

This is a parable. It also state that salvation comes from the Pentateuch and the Prophets. Do you believe that?

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And if you will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, you will not listen to Christ (though one rose from the dead).

We also know the after Jesus died, he went to Hades to set the captives free (Eph. 4:8-10).

We do?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul plainly shows us the resurrection of the dead takes place at the return of Christ, not at His first coming, but His second coming.

The only thing that makes sense is that the compartment many call Abraham's bosom must also be Paradise. Of this, Matt Slick, the Christian apologist, says:

"Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions, the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.”

So I agree that Jesus went to Paradise to set the captives free which is down below and then ascended up to His Father later.

Thanks, Shiloah, this was very interesting and I now am certain Paradise is not necessarily synonymous with Heaven.

The only thing that makes sense here is that this is a parable. I haveposted the ture explanation of this several times but I don't think I have here. It is somewhat lengthy and if I get an opportunity, I will post it.

 

[john832]

The lost and redeemed were in Hades before Jesus's crucifixion. Hebrew She'ol. In the description of Abraham bosom mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, that was a place separated in Hades called paradise. when Jesus told the thief about God's paradise that he will be in that day, he was confirming that through the resurrection during his death he will lead the "captivity captive" who are the saints of the old covenant, to be removed from Hades and lead to heaven.

This place of Hades having compartments is greek mythology and was around long before the time of Christ.

 

[Bryancampbell]

This place of Hades having compartments is greek mythology and was around long before the time of Christ.

Hebrew is called "sheol"......not Greek mythology we are talking about dude....

 

[john832]

If you believe that the thief on the cross did not go to Paradise that day, then you do not believe what the bible says and you trust more in your own beliefs (opinions?) than in the bible.

The bible does say the thief died soon after Jesus died.:

Breaking the legs during crucifixion accelerates death via suffocation. They had just discovered Jesus was dead and soon the other two would be dead. It is very likely the criminal died the very same day as Jesus.

Seriously, just trust the bible and do not lean on your own understanding.

If you believe the thief went to paradise that very day, YOU do not believe the Bible...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The thief would have been the firstborn.

 

[john832]

Sounds about right, except the punishment for sin is separation from God. I personally believe Hell is a temporary place of torment by demons, not God.

And you have scripture for this?

The Apostle Paul said this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And the word for death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

It cannot mean life in some other place.

 

[john832]

You don't even know what we are talking about....

View attachment 53631

And all she was doing was quoting Christ. Apparently you don't think Christ knew what He was talking about.

 

[john832]

Hebrew is called "sheol"......not Greek mythology we are talking about dude....

OK, show me where sheol is used in the New Testament from which all these scriptures are quoted. Where do you find sheol in the N.T.?

 

[Michael50]

There are two deaths which can occur to a human: physical and spiritual. Ecc is clearly speaking of the physical one, in as much as the serpent in the Garden was speaking of the spiritual.

You are more than correct, the body is in the grave UNTIL our transformation. But, as for the soul, shall Christ once again go to Paradise to deliver the souls of the justified? Have we, those under Christ and not the Law, not been released from the Law's sentencing of death? Yes, we certainly have. What need then is there for those justified in Christ to know death, seeing that we are no longer under the Law? The Law brought death, but Christ brought Life.


Correct, the body of Jesus went nowhere. But spiritually, did He not spend "three days and nights in the belly of the whale", seeing that He brought back with Him those righteous of the Law?


Even the righteous dead of the Law was sentenced to death under the Law, no one escaped that imprisonment. He went to those under the Law's bondage of death who had their righteousness through the Law, but awaited their Messiah. He, indeed, lead captive those held captive by that sentencing.



My intent was to show you that the Preacher was speaking about physical death, as is evident even by your further reading.


It would seem to me that they were not asking for revenge, but was asking God when He would 'wrap' things up so that they could enter the everlasting Kingdom. I agree with you, they were not looking for revenge, seeing that we are to forgive like our Savior was. Good observation.

From your post, it seems you believe the dead are alive. So get ready,,,,,because Satan has all sorts of devious deceptions for those who believe the dead are alive.

The Bible teaches that the dead are not aware of anything. Those who go around teaching that the soul is immortal,, that there is a Paradise where the dead go and wait,,, are teaching from the handbook of Satan.

The false teaching that the soul is immortal will go hand in hand with the false teaching that Sunday is the day we should observe as Sabbath.

These subjects are closely related. Those who beleive the dead are alive,, will soon recieve communications from the dead. Only the messages won't be coming from dead people. The messages will be coming from Demons who masquerade as dead loved ones.

The only Safeguard, is to know the dead know nothing.

Those who believe the dead are alive, have no Safeguard against the deceptions of Satan. They disarmed themselves when they chose to believe the dead are alive.

God says: "the soul that sinneth shall die."

Satan says "ye shall not surely die."

 

[Bryancampbell]

Hades is the same word as Sheol but in Greek. Which was a place divided from paradise. Like I said earlier, the bosom of Abraham wasn't heaven (Luke 16:19-31), for Jesus wasnt describing heaven but a place called paradise. But if you want a verse with Hades (sheol) here is one..

In Hades (Sheol), where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Luke 16:23-24

This was a place that both old testament saints and sinners went to after death. Divided into two compartments of torture and the other of paradise. Jesus during his death went below to lead the "captivity captive", which are the saints of the OT, to be brought to heaven...

"Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.”(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:8-10

So when Jesus told the man that he will see paradise, he wasn't referring to heaven yet. He established the statement that he himself hasn't went to heaven yet himself so he must mean a different paradise mentioned both in Luke and Ephesians. Sheol and Paradise both exist numerous times especially Hades (the underworld) in the Old testament for those who weren't saved yet by Jesus in the end. It's the place of the dead old testament people.

 

[john832]

Sir paradise and heaven aren't the same...

OK, you need to tell Paul that the next time you see him...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[john832]

Hades is the same word as Sheol but in Greek. Which was a place divided from paradise. Like I said earlier, the bosom of Abraham wasn't heaven (Luke 16:19-31), for Jesus wasnt describing heaven but a place called paradise. But if you want a verse with Hades (sheol) here is one..

In Hades (Sheol), where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Luke 16:23-24

This was a place that both old testament saints and sinners went to after death. Divided into two compartments of torture and the other of paradise. Jesus during his death went below to lead the "captivity captive", which are the saints of the OT, to be brought to heaven...

"Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.”(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:8-10

So when Jesus told the man that he will see paradise, he wasn't referring to heaven yet. He established the statement that he himself hasn't went to heaven yet himself so he must mean a different paradise mentioned both in Luke and Ephesians. Sheol and Paradise both exist numerous times especially Hades (the underworld) in the Old testament for those who weren't saved yet by Jesus in the end. It's the place of the dead old testament people.

Luke 16 is a parable and it is not even about heaven and hell. The real instruction there is...

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I gotta dig up my notes and true explanation of this parable. It may take a few days, but I will post it.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Luke 16 is a parable and it is not even about heaven and hell. The real instruction there is...

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I gotta dig up my notes and true explanation of this parable. It may take a few days, but I will post it.

Parable used old testament sanctuaries for description. Study both verse I posted it will be quite interesting trust me!!!!!!

 

[john832]

Parable used old testament sanctuaries for description. Study both verse I posted it will be quite interesting trust me!!!!!!

Look, if you want to continue to insist that Luke 16 is not a parable and it is direct teaching, are you doing this?

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Look, if you want to continue to insist that Luke 16 is not a parable and it is direct teaching, are you doing this?

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Lol I never said it wasn't a parable, I was saying Jesus used literal places for a parable. Otherwise he made up Abraham bosom as some random place in the middle of the galaxy...

 

[john832]

Lol I never said it wasn't a parable, I was saying Jesus used literal places for a parable. Otherwise he made up Abraham bosom as some random place in the middle of the galaxy...

LOL, Abraham is dead...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Abraham just like all the other faithful is dead and awaiting a resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They and we will be resurrected at the return of Christ.

 

[Bryancampbell]

LOL, Abraham is dead...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Abraham just like all the other faithful is dead and awaiting a resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They and we will be resurrected at the return of Christ.

With what I know knowing verses in Luke of the parable is a reflection of Ephesians 4:8-10, which I believe from Adam to the man on the cross, that they don't have to wait for the resurrection because Jesus lead the captivity free from the sheol. I do believe the resurrection is now for the people after Jesus died whether they believe in Christ or not....

 

[Michael50]

With what I know knowing verses in Luke of the parable is a reflection of Ephesians 4:8-10, which I believe from Adam to the man on the cross, that they don't have to wait for the resurrection because Jesus lead the captivity free from the sheol. I do believe the resurrection is now for the people after Jesus died whether they believe in Christ or not....

You said, "I do believe the ressurection is now for the people after Jesus died whether they believe in Christ or not."

Martha, the sister of Lazarus, said this about her dead brother:

"I know that he will rise again in the ressurection at the last day."

It seems to me, that Martha was under the belief the the dead are raised from their graves at the last day. Of course she didn't know Jesus was going to raise Lazarus then....

Martha, and I'm sure almost everybody at that time already had the understanding that the dead are raised from their graves at the last day.

Jesus says the same thing at least 4 times in the New Testament. "I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:39,40,44,54.

With that being said,,, Peter said of David: "...he is both dead and buried and his grave is with us to this day...For David did not ascend into the heavens.." Acts 2;29-34.

Jesus says He will raise the righteous dead at the Last day. Martha believed it. So do I.

 

[Bryancampbell]

You said, "I do believe the ressurection is now for the people after Jesus died whether they believe in Christ or not."

Martha, the sister of Lazarus, said this about her dead brother:

"I know that he will rise again in the ressurection at the last day."

It seems to me, that Martha was under the belief the the dead are raised from their graves at the last day. Of course she didn't know Jesus was going to raise Lazarus then....

Martha, and I'm sure almost everybody at that time already had the understanding that the dead are raised from their graves at the last day.

Jesus says the same thing at least 4 times in the New Testament. "I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:39,40,44,54.

With that being said,,, Peter said of David: "...he is both dead and buried and his grave is with us to this day...For David did not ascend into the heavens.." Acts 2;29-34.

Jesus says He will raise the righteous dead at the Last day. Martha believed it. So do I.

Tell me friend, didn't Lazarus get resurrected and live on? So how do you know he didn't die the second time after Jesus died? Exactly....he is part of those in the new covenant..

 

[Michael50]

Tell me friend, didn't Lazarus get resurrected and live on? So how do you know he didn't die the second time after Jesus died? Exactly....he is part of those in the new covenant..

I believe Lazarus, the brother of Martha & Mary died twice. I believe all the people that Jesus healed of their sicknesses, eventually got sick, or old,, and died.

I see no evidence,,, none whatsoever,, that the dead are alive in heaven, on in some made up place.

All Biblical evidence decidedly tells me the dead are in their graves waiting the APPEARANCE OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS!

Until then,, the dead are just that,,, dead.