study - Order Of Events

[GRA]

PlainWord:

"You mean to tell me that you do not believe that 'a star falling from heaven and opening up a bottomless pit' - from which come 'demonic' creatures, unlike anything you have ever imagined - is NOT on the level and scope of a cosmic disturbance...???"

All:

A "good and proper" study of the book of Revelation will require you to "give up" the following notions:

~ The book is written entirely as a chronological order-of-events - with no overlaps, gaps, skips, or jumps.

~ The details of the description of events are always written in chronological order.

~ No topic or event is mentioned / referenced / "visited" more than once.

Also - you must learn to look at the details for the sake of the details and not for the sake of timing.

( more later... )

 

[zone]

hi GRA
you are the hardest working student of Revelation i ever did see

edit - as you have noted above:

Revelation is not in chronological (linear) order.


it recapitulates (restarts) 7 times (telling the same story, like chapters, but the telling and retelling overlapping indeed).

the sequence is earth; heaven;earth;heaven;earth;heaven...etc.
there are a few places where earth imagery overlays heaven imagery (and vice versa) - describing something from both realms at the the same time.

i love you
zone

 

[iamsoandso]

Revelations(christ) states it it's self rev. 1;19,,,,"you have seen(past tense to john when on patmos),,,things that are(present tense to john while on patmos),,,and must shortly come to pass(future tense to john while on patmos)",,,,,

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord:

"You mean to tell me that you do not believe that 'a star falling from heaven and opening up a bottomless pit' - from which come 'demonic' creatures, unlike anything you have ever imagined - is NOT on the level and scope of a cosmic disturbance...???"

All:

A "good and proper" study of the book of Revelation will require you to "give up" the following notions:

~ The book is written entirely as a chronological order-of-events - with no overlaps, gaps, skips, or jumps.

~ The details of the description of events are always written in chronological order.

~ No topic or event is mentioned / referenced / "visited" more than once.

Also - you must learn to look at the details for the sake of the details and not for the sake of timing.

( more later... )

Whether this "star" is an actual star or symbolic of an angel with a key is unclear in the Greek. We know that hell or Hades is an actually place located in the depths of the earth. You seem to be suggesting that this "star" punched a hole all the way to Hades thus freeing the locusts and 200 million creature army. Is that correct? I hadn't looked at this in a literal way before.

An impact of that magnitude could certainly cause the massive earthquake we see in the 6th seal. We are told that the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit so that fits nicely with the "black as sackcloth of hair of the 6th seal." Okay, your theory works.

 

[PlainWord]

Let's assume you are right about the 6th seal encompassing the trumpets. Do you then say that the trumpets are in sequential order but the 6th seal is not? Or are both in sequential order? This isn't really of great importance to me as we agree all these happen before the return of the Lord. But I am curious what you think. It would be nice to know exactly when the Tribulation has started. Is it with a great world-shaking earthquake or is it with 1/3 of the trees and grass getting burned up?

My real interest lies with what happens AFTER the return of the Lord. Where do we go after we are gathered? I don't think heaven because the Lord remains on the earth and we are to always be with him.

 

[PlainWord]

In terms of your order of events GRA do you have the witnesses coming on the scene BEFORE any of the Trib stuff happens? You said they bring it about. If so, then we would have clear warning first. I personally think we will see the big earthquake first.

 

[GRA]

it recapitulates (restarts) 7 times (telling the same story, like chapters, but the telling and retelling overlapping indeed).

the sequence is earth; heaven;earth;heaven;earth;heaven...etc.
there are a few places where earth imagery overlays heaven imagery (and vice versa) - describing something from both realms at the the same time.

i love you
zone

Uh - No.

Not quite...

Do you still love me? Even if we disagree?

( We still agree on a lot! - just not everything... )

 

[GRA]

Whether this "star" is an actual star or symbolic of an angel with a key is unclear in the Greek. We know that hell or Hades is an actually place located in the depths of the earth. You seem to be suggesting that this "star" punched a hole all the way to Hades thus freeing the locusts and 200 million creature army. Is that correct? I hadn't looked at this in a literal way before.

An impact of that magnitude could certainly cause the massive earthquake we see in the 6th seal. We are told that the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit so that fits nicely with the "black as sackcloth of hair of the 6th seal." Okay, your theory works.

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
~ Revelation 9:1-2

It does not say that he created or formed the bottomless pit - just that he 'opened' it...

Already existing, perhaps? Just "closed" at the top...???

 

[GRA]

Let's assume you are right about the 6th seal encompassing the trumpets. Do you then say that the trumpets are in sequential order but the 6th seal is not? Or are both in sequential order? This isn't really of great importance to me as we agree all these happen before the return of the Lord. But I am curious what you think. It would be nice to know exactly when the Tribulation has started. Is it with a great world-shaking earthquake or is it with 1/3 of the trees and grass getting burned up?

I generally do not apply the word 'tribulation' to the trumpet events. The "tribulation period", as a prophetic 'event' ( i.e. - the Great Tribulation ) - ends before - or at - the start of the trumpet 'events'.

The trumpet 'events' are simply part of the 6th seal 'events'.

"There is a good chance that the 'Tribulation Period' has already started ( around 70 A.D. ) and will end after most of the Christians on the earth are killed for not accepting the mark of the beast..."

After that - the two witnesses show up...

Don't confuse the 'Tribulation Period' and the trumpet events.

( And, of course, neither of them include any part of the "Wrath of God" -- that is altogether different -- and, takes place after the other two. )

 

[PlainWord]

I generally do not apply the word 'tribulation' to the trumpet events. The "tribulation period", as a prophetic 'event' ( i.e. - the Great Tribulation ) - ends before - or at - the start of the trumpet 'events'.

The trumpet 'events' are simply part of the 6th seal 'events'.

"There is a good chance that the 'Tribulation Period' has already started ( around 70 A.D. ) and will end after most of the Christians on the earth are killed for not accepting the mark of the beast..."

After that - the two witnesses show up...

Don't confuse the 'Tribulation Period' and the trumpet events.

( And, of course, neither of them include any part of the "Wrath of God" -- that is altogether different -- and, takes place after the other two. )

I am re-thinking the whole Tribulation in light of my post on your Olivet Discourse thread. I am coming around to your way of thinking but even further. I'm not sure the Church even gets raptured at all around the Trib period. I also agree there is a good chance, Daniel is complete, his 70 weeks. I am still studying.

 

[PlainWord]

GRA,

I was reading up on the Bride and came upon this:


Jer 7:

34 Then I will cause to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. For the land shall be desolate.

Then saw this in Rev 21:

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God.

First, I thought the Bride was supposed to be the church? Looks like Jerusalem to me. Not saying you said this, it's just what I was always taught.

Second, from the passage above, the angel having the 7 last plagues, did you catch that? Doesn't sound like these plagues go with the trumpets. They sound like they stand alone to me. If they stand alone, perhaps all the seals and trumpets and bowls happen sequentially as written. Since it is now clear from our bird and carcass study that Jesus doesn't return until the Battle of Armageddon, there is no worry about finding out what Jesus is doing between the 7th trump and the last of the bowls.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother GRA,

It appears that Trumpet 7 encompasses all the Bowl Judgments. Check out this video. It is a little bit long but he makes a solid case for this.

the trumpets of God - YouTube

 

[PlainWord]

"And the sun will turn black, as sackcloth of hair."

I think I know what this is now. See below video, only it will be 22 years from now and be full.

NASA spots giant dark hole in the sun | Fox News Video

 

[john832]

the abomination is what starts the 3.5 year great trib.. it is when the prince who is to come breaks his treaty. and defames God and starts his war against the saints.

Some things we don't agree on, this one we are in lock step.

 

[GRA]

... Jesus doesn't return until the Battle of Armageddon, there is no worry about finding out what Jesus is doing between the 7th trump and the last of the bowls.

"I don't know about you - but I am not confused in the slightest..."

.
.
.

The truth is -- the next time He "shows up" - it will be His "second coming" (He has not yet returned since the Acts 1:9 event.) - and, everything you read in the Bible that has to do with His "return" will ALL take place - in proper order - starting "the moment He shows up" -- "the rapture of the saints" and "the wrath of God" both happen within the same [overall] event -- the Second Coming of Christ. When He returns:

~~ He will be seen coming in/with clouds...
~~ Every eye shall see him - no exceptions...
~~ The 'rapture' of the saints will occur... (And, everyone will witness it -- the concept of "Where did they all go?" is NOT Biblical.)
~~ Every person on Earth will know who He is and why He is here... (There will be NO misunderstanding or doubt whatsoever.)
~~ His feet will stand upon the mount - which will cleave and split, and create a valley... ( Zechariah 14:4 )
~~ He will stand with the 144,000... ( Revelation 14:1 )
~~ The temple of God will be seen opened in heaven... ( Revelation 11:19 ; Revelation 15:5 )
~~ He will pour out the wrath of God upon the earth... ( Revelation 19:15 ; Revelation 14:19-20 ; Revelation 16 )

All of these things are "sub-parts" of the same 'major' event - the Second Coming of Christ.

.
.
.

"He is here the whole time..."

 

[GRA]

"I don't know about you - but I am not confused in the slightest..."


"He is here the whole time..."

Armageddon is included...

 

[PlainWord]

"I don't know about you - but I am not confused in the slightest..."


"He is here the whole time..."

I don't think so. I think the 7th trump announces His kingdom in heaven but he doesn't actually return to earth until Armageddon. You won't find anything related to the 7th Trumpet in Revelation saying the Lord is returning then. You have him coming back with all the saints sometime between the 6th bowl and 7th bowl. Rev 19 describes the scene and Mat 24:28 and Luke 17:37 confirm the timing.

However, the 7th trumpet I believe encompasses all the Bowl judgments which of course is God's Wrath which is specifically poured out against the Beast and His kingdom. We know Jesus doesn't come back at the start of the 7th trumpet because we are told He is to sit at his father's right hand until the Father has made His (Jesus's) enemies, his footstool. The Father does that with the Bowl judgments.

I believe the 7th trumpet sounds over a period of time. Recall Joshua? Each day he would march around Jericho and blow the trumpet then on the 7th day he marched around 7 times and blew the trumpet continuously and the people all shouted. I think we have a very similar thing happening here. Either each of the 6 previous trumpets are followed by 1 bowl being poured out or 6 trumpets sound then on the 7th trumpet all bowls are poured out before the sounding of the 7th trumpet is complete.

I don't know, are we saying the same thing?

 

[PlainWord]

I then think the Day of the Lord last 1,000 years. He is to reign until He puts all things under His feet. Then He turns the Kingdom over to the Father.

1 Cor 15:

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
The Day of the Lord starts out with incredible glory with Jesus coming to earth with all His saints and angels to do battle with the Beast. More later...

 

[GRA]

We know Jesus doesn't come back at the start of the 7th trumpet because we are told He is to sit at his father's right hand until the Father has made His (Jesus's) enemies, his footstool. The Father does that with the Bowl judgments.

I then think the Day of the Lord last 1,000 years. He is to reign until He puts all things under His feet. Then He turns the Kingdom over to the Father.

You seem to be saying that His enemies are not "made his footstool" until Armageddon - yet, at the same time - also not until the end of the 1000 years...???

 

[PlainWord]

You seem to be saying that His enemies are not "made his footstool" until Armageddon - yet, at the same time - also not until the end of the 1000 years...???

No. Jesus' enemies are the ones who rose up against Jerusalem, His holy city, and the place where He is to reign. This is where the Beast will be ruling the world. I believe, and I think we are clearly taught, that God will pour out His wrath specifically on the Beast and his kingdom with these bowls. The first 6 bowls are poured out BEFORE Christ returns.

It appears Jesus is in Jerusalem before Armageddon starts. God has defeated the enemies in the immediate vicinity. Jesus returns before Armageddon. Joel seems to have the best description of the events before, during and after.

We see in Joel 2:

30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.


The above and below in 3:7 appears to be the so called "Rapture" which I put in big text, but clearly, this gathering isn't to heaven, it is to battle here on earth. Continue in Joel 3:

1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land.

7 "Behold, I will raise them Out of the place to which you have sold them, And will return your retaliation upon your own head.

9 Proclaim this among the nations: "Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up.

10 Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, 'I am strong.' "

11 Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.

12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow-- For their wickedness is great."

See how this ties to Rev 14? This is Armageddon.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness.

16 The Lord also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the Lord will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So you shall know that I am the Lord your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again."

You can see that the Lord is in Jerusalem before Armageddon. He is gathering all His people to Him before the Battle.






This is why I think He doesn't return until sometime between the 6th and 7th bowl because as the Beast is gathering his armies, so does Christ.