Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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cfultz3

Guest
The Greek word aionios, translated "eternal" or "everlasting," literally means "lasting for an age." Ancient Greek papyri contain numerous examples of Roman emperors being described as aionios. What is meant is that they held their office for life. Unfortunately, the English words "eternal" or "everlasting" do not accurately render the meaning of aionios, which literally means "age-lasting." In other words, while the Greek aionios expresses perpetuity within limits, the English "eternal" or "everlasting" denotes unlimited duration.
Shiloah,

Perhaps, if you are talking about G165, you mean only "age"? And if you are talking about G166, you mean only "perpetual"? G165 is a noun and G166 is an adjective. However, your definition has it as a verb, and potentially, an adverb.

When we start expanding meanings for whatever purpose, as making it say "lasting for an age", we change the concept of that particular word. Allow me to explain.

There are 5 verses with G165 and G166 within them. For my explanation, I will use Luke 18:30.

Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Would it be logical to say, "...and in the world to come, which will only last for an age, everlasting life"?

If the world to come will only last for a time, then we are all in trouble, seeing that it too will come to an end.

Likewise, if G165/166 implies "perpetuity within limits", then when does "eternity" end?

Christ gives us hope of everlasting life without end, let us not cap His promise.
 
Feb 5, 2013
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God said the dead cease to exist, they have no conscience. That is also why there is no such thing as GHOST.
LOL Laughing so hard here....I think you are joking LoL

thanks for the joke anyway...

God bless
 
Jul 14, 2013
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LOL Laughing so hard here....I think you are joking LoL

thanks for the joke anyway...

God bless
Keep laughing funny guy!

Psalm 49

12
people despite their wealth do not endure,they are like the beasts that perish

14
They are like sheep who are destined to die ,death will be their shepherdTheir forms will decay in the grave

15
But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead he will surely take me to himself
 
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Shiloah

Guest
I thought the question of the thread wasn't even about forever or not, but is the hellfire torment biblical or not.
I think if you'll read through the OP's posts, you'll see that her/his concerns were about the lie about God's supposed eternal torture chamber. lol.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
Keep laughing funny guy!

Psalm 49

12
people despite their wealth do not endure,they are like the beasts that perish

14
They are like sheep who are destined to die ,death will be their shepherdTheir forms will decay in the grave

15
But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead he will surely take me to himself
I ain't laughing, I'm clapping, Thanks for even more excellent scriptures that debunk this lie against our Creator, our Savior, and our magnificent FRIEND.
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
The wicked are spiritually dead...they cry out for God but he won't never answer...spirituality dead. all flesh dies because of sin...although jesus was made a curse for human sin is he not still alive? Jesus took our sin which allowed his flesh to die but not his spirit so he lives FOREVER. Our flesh dies but our spirit lives. But I'm not gonna argue you have ur teachings n I got mine and I respect that. I do know the fire won't go out at all...what creates smoke that ascends forever? Fire... which burns forever.

And Malachi 4:3 is out of context...
The wicked are spiritually dead while they walk on this earth without Christ, and when the breath of life leaves them and they return to the dust from which they came, they're just plain dead.

Malachi 4:3 is out of context? lol.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
Anybody who really wants a super duper read on this subject in support of the total annihilation of the wicked belief, here's an excellent article. It covers many points. It's pretty long but extremely interesting so it doesn't get boring. I know only those that are willing to consider another side but what they've already decided is true will read it, but again, for those actually seeking the truth, check it out. It's one of the better articles I've seen on this issue (on the internet, anyway). It is actually really long. I've stopped and come back to it a few times, because again, it was well worth the read to me.

Hell: Eternal Torment or Annihilation
 
D

danschance

Guest
Keep laughing funny guy!

Psalm 49

12
people despite their wealth do not endure,they are like the beasts that perish

14
They are like sheep who are destined to die ,death will be their shepherdTheir forms will decay in the grave

15
But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead he will surely take me to himself
What does "redeem me from the realm of the dead mean? What is the realm of the dead??
 
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Kerry

Guest
This doctrine of total annihilation is an atheist's best friend. Because it is exactly what they believe and count on!!!!
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Is Jesus just fibbing or telling the truth. Never quenched?

Mark 9
42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[a]
 
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Kerry

Guest
  1. Alas! and did my Savior bleed
    And did my Sov’reign die?
    Would He devote that sacred head
    For such a worm as I?
    • Refrain:
      At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
      And the burden of my heart rolled away,
      It was there by faith I received my sight,
      And now I am happy all the day!
 
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leonardronaldo

Guest
I think if you'll read through the OP's posts, you'll see that her/his concerns were about the lie about God's supposed eternal torture chamber. lol.
yes, but the first question of the OP, whether it is literal fire torment or not. I did read it.
 
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leonardronaldo

Guest
What does "redeem me from the realm of the dead mean? What is the realm of the dead??
yes, and i didn't see soul/spirit will decay there. but forms will decay
 
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danschance

Guest
yes, and i didn't see soul/spirit will decay there. but forms will decay
Yep "forms" = "bodies". Never once have a seen a single passage say our spirit will cease, decay or die. Not one time.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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i dont know if anyone posted this yet (didnt have time to read through everything, but i thought these verses might be relevant in one way or another. Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV) 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Instead of accepting the light of the New Testament, Seventh Day Cultists, always retreat the darkness of the old testament. They read into those passages what they so desperately want to read. Unfortunately all those old testament passages simply refer to a physical death and not the annihilation of the human spirit.

When you show them the clear teachings of the new testament, they simply twist them and redefine the words. Torment = death, and so on.
Let's look at come clear teaching from the New Testament. Everybody loves the "Golden Text", but most people don't really believe it...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

OK, first thing we should see here is that we can perish. What does it mean to perish? The word for perish is...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It does not mean life in some other place, it means to die, to be destroyed. On the other hand, the phrase "but have everlasting life" shows us something else. We do not have life inherent, it is a gift that must be given to us...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The whole idea of eternal torment presupposes one already posseses eternal life and that we are only deciding where it will be spent. In reality, we were created with a temporary existence that can become permanent by the gift of life from our creator. On the other hand, Paul here shows that those who continue in the way of sin receive death. Now there are those who will tell you that really means life in some other place, but the word for death here...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

And in no way implies life. It means death. But let's turn to the Final Authority...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Did Jesus mean spending an eternity in horrible anguish and torment? The word for destroy here is...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Remember that word? It is the same word we saw used earlier in the "Golden Text". God is consistent, He doesn't willy-nilly change His mind, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. About 6000 years ago, He said this...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

die:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

There is no implication of life in some other place here, it means what it says. Our first parents were persuaded by the nachash (the whispering enchanter) when he uttered the first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And the world has believed it ever since...

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Not just some isolated tribe in Papua New Guinea, but the whole world.
 
May 24, 2013
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Let's look at come clear teaching from the New Testament. Everybody loves the "Golden Text", but most people don't really believe it...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

OK, first thing we should see here is that we can perish. What does it mean to perish? The word for perish is...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It does not mean life in some other place, it means to die, to be destroyed. On the other hand, the phrase "but have everlasting life" shows us something else. We do not have life inherent, it is a gift that must be given to us...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The whole idea of eternal torment presupposes one already posseses eternal life and that we are only deciding where it will be spent. In reality, we were created with a temporary existence that can become permanent by the gift of life from our creator. On the other hand, Paul here shows that those who continue in the way of sin receive death. Now there are those who will tell you that really means life in some other place, but the word for death here...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

And in no way implies life. It means death. But let's turn to the Final Authority...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Did Jesus mean spending an eternity in horrible anguish and torment? The word for destroy here is...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Remember that word? It is the same word we saw used earlier in the "Golden Text". God is consistent, He doesn't willy-nilly change His mind, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. About 6000 years ago, He said this...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

die:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

There is no implication of life in some other place here, it means what it says. Our first parents were persuaded by the nachash (the whispering enchanter) when he uttered the first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And the world has believed it ever since...

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Not just some isolated tribe in Papua New Guinea, but the whole world.
Excellent evidence. Sad that it is falling on deaf ears. I'm 100% sure that Danschance is 100% decieved. Perhaps others that read these posts will know better than to believe the dead are alive.. But Danschance has turned away from all scripture, an all reasoning.

There really is no sense in continued reasoning with Dan. There is no scripture that you can present to Dan that he wont twist or just reject.

God will send Danschance strong delusion to go ahead and believe a lie. In fact,, the evidence would suggest that God has already done so.
 
May 24, 2013
682
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LOL Laughing so hard here....I think you are joking LoL

thanks for the joke anyway...

God bless

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

"But the wicked shall perish, The enemies of the Lord, shall vanish...Into smoke, they shall vanish away."

"For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you reject all 3 of these scriptures too?

It's really Pathetic that you would laugh at somebody,,thank them sarcastically as if they were joking,,, and then give them a satanic insult,, by claiming God to bless them!!!!!

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything"!!!!!!!

My 10 year old Grandson can understand that,,,, But you not only cannot understand it,, but you reject it!!!!!

Either you are a Bible rejecting Satanic plant,, Or you are in error that is over your head. You decide.

But, there really is no sense in using God to insult somebody by ending your sarcastic reply with a "God bless". It

seriously shows you are not sincere at any level. But rather a mocking antagonizer of the brethren.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
Proverbs 19 28 An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devour iniquity. 29 Judgements are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the backs of fools.

The entire chapter of Romans 11 would be relevant to this thread as well I think, but I am just going to quote the ending of it.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be the glory for ever. Amen.

I see good points on both sides of this argument on this thread, but I think denying an eternal punishment is to make a mockery of God's law, which is the very essence of iniquity. Who, as a man, can fathom God's ways or why he does things? No one. I'll borrow an example given by a speaker at Oxford. "If I take my dog buster to the vet for his shots so that he won't die of a disease, and then I take him home and sit him down and try to explain to him why he had to go through that pain, he isn't going to understand. It's because the capacity of his very nature as a dog makes me it impossible for me to explain why. He simply doesn't have the capacity to understand."

This was in reference to a question "why does God allow suffering", but I think it can be applicable here. Who are we, not gods, to question God and his methods? Who are we to undermine his authority and the way he chooses to carry out judgement? We simply don't have the capacity to understand why. Does an eternal punishment undermine the love of God? I don't think so. Paul tells us "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse".

I think (and I've been there, rather recently) that the only reason to undermine God's judgement and diminish the actuality of a divine judgement and punishment, stems from an internal struggle within oneself who is not yet fully convinced of his own salvation and absolute trust has not yet been placed in God and his eternal sovereignty.