Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
- Thread starter Alter2Ego
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I am so sick and tired of hearing the same faulty argument of "The dead know nothing". That is such poor exegesis.
That scripture first of all comes from the Old Testament. The New testament clearly shows the dead do know something! So how can this be?
The book of Ecclesiastes is referred to as "a secular book" written by King Solomon in his old age. The "soul sleepers" love to quote "the dead know nothing" and they also seem to completly ignore the book is a look at "everything under the sun"!
Ecclesiastes does not look into the afterlife at all. It is King Solomon's viewpoint on life under the sun. From this stand point a dead body clearly knows nothing of life under the sun.
Does the bible support the idea that when we die we know nothing? No, the bible clearly supports that a soul clearly lives on apart from the body.
1) Both the rich man and Lazarus died and then live in two separate compartments of Hades. (Luke 16:23)
2) The souls of the departed cry out to Jesus. (Rev. 6:9)
3) Jesus blows the Sadducees away by stating the Abraham, Issac and Jacob are still alive.
( Matt 22:31 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.")
That scripture first of all comes from the Old Testament. The New testament clearly shows the dead do know something! So how can this be?
The book of Ecclesiastes is referred to as "a secular book" written by King Solomon in his old age. The "soul sleepers" love to quote "the dead know nothing" and they also seem to completly ignore the book is a look at "everything under the sun"!
Ecclesiastes does not look into the afterlife at all. It is King Solomon's viewpoint on life under the sun. From this stand point a dead body clearly knows nothing of life under the sun.
Does the bible support the idea that when we die we know nothing? No, the bible clearly supports that a soul clearly lives on apart from the body.
1) Both the rich man and Lazarus died and then live in two separate compartments of Hades. (Luke 16:23)
2) The souls of the departed cry out to Jesus. (Rev. 6:9)
3) Jesus blows the Sadducees away by stating the Abraham, Issac and Jacob are still alive.
( Matt 22:31 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.")
if you desire to reject the Bible, that's your business... But,, I and others will continue to run interference for your false teaching that the dead are alive.
As God lives, so does His Truth that the dead know nothing!
L
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.
Stop trying to make random debates...
Stop trying to make random debates...
So what's hell?
Does the word "hell" as used in the Bible always refer to a place of burning or punishment?
Answer: No, the word "hell' is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning"
The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings:
In the Old Testament: 31 times from "sheol,' which means 'the grave".
In the New testement: 10 times from 'hades" which means "the grave'.
12 times from "Gehenna" which means "the place of burning."
1 time from "tartarus" which means "a place of darkness".
So,, as you can see,, the word "hell" can have more than one meaning.
It can be the grave,,, or the lake of fire. So,, a person has to explain which place he is making reference to when using the word 'hell"..
D
Dan,, I guess you are going to be sick and tired.
if you desire to reject the Bible, that's your business... But,, I and others will continue to run interference for your false teaching that the dead are alive.
As God lives, so does His Truth that the dead know nothing!
if you desire to reject the Bible, that's your business... But,, I and others will continue to run interference for your false teaching that the dead are alive.
As God lives, so does His Truth that the dead know nothing!
Michael,, Since you are so smart and like to say "The dead know nothing", can you explain to me what the rest of that verse says? What is the rest of Eccl. 9:5 about and how does that fit in to the context of that scripture?
L
Ecclesiastes 9
4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
Michael,, Since you are so smart and like to say "The dead know nothing", can you explain to me what the rest of that verse says? What is the rest of Eccl. 9:5 about and how does that fit in to the context of that scripture?
I can tell you that "the dead knowing nothing' fits perfectly with that scripture,, because it is part of that scripture.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." = While we are alive, we think, breathe, eat, live. Once we die,,all that ceases. We know nothing. We are dead!
"And they have no more reward. For the memory of them is forgotten = No more rewards of earthly things. No promotions, no raises,, no more good or bad things. No activity after death. Not even memories to think about. Even when we give the Medal of Honor posthumously,, the dead Honoree isn't aware of it. He's dead. Job 14:21 states that dead people are not aware of their own funerals.
"His sons come to honor him and he know it not." Job 14:21
So, there ya go, I answered your question about the remainder of Eccl 9:5.
E
19 pages of people praying to their baal for hell, destruction, and excessive vengeance.
Azazel
ah-tz-eh-tz-l
experiencing-not-source-not-goad
"Knowing not the reason nor the means"
"And Hn'k went and said: Ahtzehtzl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds"
Mere "watchers"
You are imprisoned and you have no peace!
Azazel
ah-tz-eh-tz-l
experiencing-not-source-not-goad
"Knowing not the reason nor the means"
"And Hn'k went and said: Ahtzehtzl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds"
Mere "watchers"
You are imprisoned and you have no peace!
D
Well Dan,, why didn't you post Ecclesiastes 9:5 and explain yourself.
Michael and others who think the dead know nothing......
1) They will never see a reward. No reward for tithing. No reward for all those times they did the right thing. Most of all no chance at being in Heaven or "paradise earth" because "Neither have they any more a reward".
2) "for the memory of them is forgotten"... So God will not remember the dead. Thier own children will get amnesia and forget all about them.
If you believe the dead know nothing then you must also believe they will not have any reward and they will be forgotten.
Or you can keep on reading and it all makes perfect sense and your interpretation is absurd. I will give you a hint: "and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Well Dan,, why didn't you post Ecclesiastes 9:5 and explain yourself.
I can tell you that "the dead knowing nothing' fits perfectly with that scripture,, because it is part of that scripture.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." = While we are alive, we think, breathe, eat, live. Once we die,,all that ceases. We know nothing. We are dead!
"And they have no more reward. For the memory of them is forgotten = No more rewards of earthly things. No promotions, no raises,, no more good or bad things. No activity after death. Not even memories to think about. Even when we give the Medal of Honor posthumously,, the dead Honoree isn't aware of it. He's dead. Job 14:21 states that dead people are not aware of their own funerals.
"His sons come to honor him and he know it not." Job 14:21
So, there ya go, I answered your question about the remainder of Eccl 9:5.
I can tell you that "the dead knowing nothing' fits perfectly with that scripture,, because it is part of that scripture.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." = While we are alive, we think, breathe, eat, live. Once we die,,all that ceases. We know nothing. We are dead!
"And they have no more reward. For the memory of them is forgotten = No more rewards of earthly things. No promotions, no raises,, no more good or bad things. No activity after death. Not even memories to think about. Even when we give the Medal of Honor posthumously,, the dead Honoree isn't aware of it. He's dead. Job 14:21 states that dead people are not aware of their own funerals.
"His sons come to honor him and he know it not." Job 14:21
So, there ya go, I answered your question about the remainder of Eccl 9:5.
OK, big hint there. Let's see if you can figure out the context of these passages.
No. You missed it badly. Hint number two: ...the dead know nothing.... under the sun.
OK, big hint there. Let's see if you can figure out the context of these passages.
OK, big hint there. Let's see if you can figure out the context of these passages.
Dan,, are you a liar? Why would ask me to explain verse 5 in it's entirety,, then make a big deal out of verse 6 when you didn't even ask me about verse 6???
Are you lost? Are you so confused you don't know the difference between verse 5 and verse 6? Are you competent enough to understand where verse 5 ends and verse 6 begins? I don't think you are.. I wouldn't let you run a self serve lemonade stand. That's how competent I believe you to be.
Last edited:
D
Excuse me Dan,, but you made no mention of verse 6.. you only asked that verse 5 be explained. Dan,,now you want throw up verse six, as if I omitted it..
Dan,, are you a liar? Why would ask me to explain verse 5 in it's entirety,, then make a big deal out of verse 6 when you didn't even ask me about verse 6???
Are you lost? Are you so confused you don't know the difference between verse 5 and verse 6? Are you competent enough to understand where verse 5 ends and verse 6 begins? I don't think you are.. I wouldn't let you run a self serve lemonade stand. That's how competent I believe you to be.
Dan,, are you a liar? Why would ask me to explain verse 5 in it's entirety,, then make a big deal out of verse 6 when you didn't even ask me about verse 6???
Are you lost? Are you so confused you don't know the difference between verse 5 and verse 6? Are you competent enough to understand where verse 5 ends and verse 6 begins? I don't think you are.. I wouldn't let you run a self serve lemonade stand. That's how competent I believe you to be.
Are you admitting the context of these verses are clearly under the sun? Either that or you must admit that there is no reward for the dead, no memory of them and I am sure even you would disagree with that.
D
Ecclesiastes 9
4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.