Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circles?

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Aug 15, 2009
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#61
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

You come to a thread with a preconceived notion of some "well oiled machine", bent on "pairing off of sides"

Then you see coherent arguments and you're like...SEE WELL OILED MACHINE!!!

You see people disagreeing and say...SEE PAIRING OFF OF ONE AGAINST EACH OTHER!

You could take these preconceived notions and apply them to almost any well thought out thread.
Tons of threads have people taking different sides of issues.
Tons of threads have well thought out ideas.


But when you approach certain ones with these preconceived notions, then it becomes something else. It becomes about "reading between the lines".

Stephen, there are people from all kinds of spectrums from Christianity on CC.
Those people take time to think out and post their views.
Those views get different sides taken.

Some people's opinions are shown as not as strong as the other opinions.

Those with the not as strong opinions can't then turn around and manufacture some plot where the well oiled machine is going about doing this or that.

CC has Christians from my camps.
Those people post their opinions.
Then people post differing opinions.
Sometimes opinions are shown as less strong than others.
That's all it is.
No need to engineer it into some sort of well oiled machine.
Like little 'ole me has the power to do something like that. After all, don't all Lutherans believe Pentecostals have no real power? The only way that I could have such power psychologically on this thread is if you gave it to me.

Now, why make such a fuss over this, like I have so much power? I...... don't....... have...... that...... kind...... of...... power.

If power is manifested, it's not mine. If authority is manifested, it's not mine.

The way I see it, I see the ability of three powers that can manifest on here...... God's, Satan's, and of course the administrator's.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#62
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Like little 'ole me has the power to do something like that. After all, don't all Lutherans believe Pentecostals have no real power? The only way that I could have such power psychologically on this thread is if you gave it to me.

Now, why make such a fuss over this, like I have so much power? I...... don't....... have...... that...... kind...... of...... power.

If power is manifested, it's not mine. If authority is manifested, it's not mine.

The way I see it, I see the ability of three powers that can manifest on here...... God's, Satan's, and of course the administrator's.
Who is claiming you have power?

Can you please quote any part where it's implied you have some sort of psychological power?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#63
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Who is claiming you have power?

Can you please quote any part where it's implied you have some sort of psychological power?
No need to engineer it into some sort of well oiled machine.
Sounds like an implication to me, like I can actually do that if I wanted....... that's the way it looks.

Sounds to me like it would be easier just to put me on "ignore". That's what I was told to do on one of my own threads.
:)
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#64
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Like little 'ole me has the power to do something like that. After all, don't all Lutherans believe Pentecostals have no real power? The only way that I could have such power psychologically on this thread is if you gave it to me.

Now, why make such a fuss over this, like I have so much power? I...... don't....... have...... that...... kind...... of...... power.

If power is manifested, it's not mine. If authority is manifested, it's not mine.

The way I see it, I see the ability of three powers that can manifest on here...... God's, Satan's, and of course the administrator's.
Ok let's see if we can try to clarify if there is a misunderstanding.

To this post
Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-3.html#post1122284

You replied specifically in this post to it, by putting this part in red.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-4.html#post1122296

No need to engineer it into some sort of well oiled machine.


The reason I said there is no need to engineer threads on topics, into some sort of well oiled machine, is because you had previously referred to this thread as part of some well oiled machine.

This thread is part of a well oiled machine.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-3.html#post1122199

But then in this post, you seemed to interpret that as me saying you are wielding some type of psychological power.
Like little 'ole me has the power to do something like that. After all, don't all Lutherans believe Pentecostals have no real power? The only way that I could have such power psychologically on this thread is if you gave it to me.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-4.html#post1122296

I wasn't claiming you have some sort of psychological influence when I said..

No need to engineer it into some sort of well oiled machine.



I was merely responding to what you said..

This thread is part of a well oiled machine.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-3.html#post1122199
 
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1still_waters

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#65
Aug 15, 2009
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#66
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I think you're getting it Stephen.
A WOMAN set herself up as a teacher in the church, taking authority over men.
Going against what The LORD was against.
Since she did it in the church, she can do it anywhere where God's people are. Anywhere the ecclesia is. if you and I can come to a consensus on these two statements, we can finally be in agreement. But don't agree...... and then disagree.;)
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#67
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Since she did it in the church, she can do it anywhere where God's people are. Anywhere the ecclesia is. if you and I can come to a consensus on these two statements, we can finally be in agreement. But don't agree...... and then disagree.;)
Some movements actually promote women taking authority over men, then they ridicule anyone who says they shouldn't be taking authority over men in the church and home.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#68
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary

that woman -- Two oldest manuscripts read, "THY wife"; two omit it. Vulgate and most ancient versions read as English Version. The symbolical Jezebel was to the Church of Thyatira what Jezebel, Ahab's "wife," was to him. Some self-styled prophetess (or as the feminine in Hebrew is often used collectively to express a multitude, a set of false prophets), as closely attached to the Church of Thyatira as a wife is to a husband, and as powerfully influencing for evil that Church as Jezebel did Ahab. As Balaam, in Israel's early history, so Jezebel, daughter of Eth-baal, king of Sidon (1Ki 16:31, formerly priest of Astarte, and murderer of his predecessor on the throne, JOSEPHUS [Against Apion, 1.18]), was the great seducer to idolatry in Israel's later history. Like her father, she was swift to shed blood. Wholly given to Baal worship, like Eth-baal, whose name expresses his idolatry, she, with her strong will, seduced the weak Ahab and Israel beyond the calf-worship (which was a worship of the true God under the cherub-ox form, that is, a violation of the second commandment) to that of Baal (a violation of the first commandment also). She seems to have been herself a priestess and prophetess of Baal. Compare 2Ki 9:22, 30, "whoredoms of . . . Jezebel and her witchcrafts" (impurity was part of the worship of the Phoenician Astarte, or Venus). Her spiritual counterpart at Thyatira lured God's "servants" by pretended utterances of inspiration to the same libertinism, fornication, and eating of idol-meats, as the Balaamites and Nicolaitanes (Rev. 2:6, 14, 15). By a false spiritualism these seducers led their victims into the grossest carnality, as though things done in the flesh were outside the true man, and were, therefore, indifferent. "The deeper the Church penetrated into heathenism, the more she herself became heathenish; this prepares us for the expressions 'harlot' and 'Babylon,' applied to her afterwards" [AUBERLEN].

to teach and to seduce -- The three oldest manuscripts read, "and she teaches and seduces," or "deceives." "Thyatira was just the reverse of Ephesus. There, much zeal for orthodoxy, but little love; here, activity of faith and love, but insufficient zeal for godly discipline and doctrine, a patience of error even where there was not a participation in it" [TRENCH].

Notes for Verse 21
Verse 21. space -- Greek, "time."

of her fornication . . . she repented not -- The three oldest manuscripts read, "and she willeth not to repent of (literally, 'out of,' that is, so as to come out of) her fornication." Here there is a transition from literal to spiritual fornication, as appears from Rev. 2:22. The idea arose from Jehovah's covenant relation to the Old Testament Church being regarded as a marriage, any transgression against which was, therefore, harlotry, fornication, or adultery.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#69
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

The symbolical Jezebel was to the Church of Thyatira what Jezebel, Ahab's "wife," was to him.
Well there you have it.
She was a woman who exercised authority over a man.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#70
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

(or as the feminine in Hebrew is often usedcollectively to express a multitude, a set of false prophets),.
Like I've been saying all along.
Claims to be a prophet/prophetess.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#71
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

 
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1still_waters

Guest
#72
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

of her fornication . . . she repented not -- The three oldest manuscripts read, "and she willeth not to repent of (literally, 'out of,' that is, so as to come out of) her fornication." Here there is a transition from literal to spiritual fornication, as appears from Rev. 2:22. The idea arose from Jehovah's covenant relation to the Old Testament Church being regarded as a marriage, any transgression against which was, therefore, harlotry, fornication, or adultery.
Yeah there are a lot of movements who see these two commands about women NOT taking authority over men, who won't repent. They even demonize those who stand up for it. Fornication against the word and command of God.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Let your[SUP][d][/SUP] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they areto be submissive, as the law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
Yup so lots of movements against God's clear commands about this in the church. Living in total fornication and rebellion against God's word.

Which is spiritual fornication against
the commandments of the Lord.
Of which your commentary speaks..
Here there is a transition from literal to spiritual fornication, as appears from Rev. 2:22.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-4.html#post1122466
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#73
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I think the primary thing people that believe it's an actual problem focus on is that the Jezebel Spirit attempts to seduce people and tries to lead them into idolatry via manipulation (Manipulation being a way to get what you desire, therefore I guess you could say a method of domination). Most of the opposition I see is basically people taking the perspective that the "Jezebel Spirit" is not mentioned in the bible and therefore unbiblical.

I think that pretty accurately sums up the way debates on the topic usually go.....then you have all kinds of side tangents about how to deal with it assuming it's actually a real problem with tons of points and counterpoints on that.
just preach the Law & The Gospel.
stop making best-selling millionaires out of cult leaders.
call sin what it is....sin.

OR

run around casting demons out of everything that moves and ppl can say the DEBIL made me do it.
really.
enuff is enuff.

former 'deliverance ministry" ppl say they got drained and wiped out - casting evil spirits out of ppl...usually the SAME people again and again.
when they shoulda just helped them get to REHAB.

one would think.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#74
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#75
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

why does there have to be a CONSENSUS?

.....

From Twisting Truth through Group Consensus: "Tension, created by diversity, is essential to the dialectic process. It energizes members and -- when manipulated by well-trained facilitators -- produces synergy. You can't guide people toward synthesis (compromise) unless there are opposing views -- both "thesis and antithesis." That's why the consensus process must include all these elements:

a diverse group
dialoguing to consensus
over a social issue
led by a trained facilitator
toward a pre-planned outcome.

The true dialectic group never reaches a final consensus, for "continual change" is an ongoing process: one step today, another tomorrow. To permanently change the way we think and relate to each other, our leaders must set the stage for conflict and compromise week after week, year after year. Dialectical thinking and group consensus must become as normal as eating. Eventually, people learn to discard their old mental anchors and boundaries -- all the facts and certainties that built firm convictions. They become like boats adrift, always ready to shift with the changing winds and currents.

From Small Groups and the Dialectic Process: Today's facilitated small groups or teams are not like the old Bible studies many of us attended years ago. Back then, we discussed the Bible and its wonderful truths; now people dialogue until they reach an emotional form of unity based on "empathy" for diverse views and values...

From Small Groups and the Dialectic Process: Today's facilitated small groups or teams are not like the old Bible studies many of us attended years ago. Back then, we discussed the Bible and its wonderful truths; now people dialogue until they reach an emotional form of unity based on "empathy" for diverse views and values. Dr. Robert Klench describes the process:

"Total Quality Management [TQM] is based upon the Hegelian dialectic, invented by Georg Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel, a transformational Marxist social psychologist. Briefly, the Hegelian dialectic process works like this: a diverse group of people (in the church, this is a mixture of believers (thesis) and unbelievers (antithesis), gather in a facilitated meeting (with a trained facilitator/teacher/group leader/change agent), using group dynamics (peer pressure), to discuss a social issue (or dialogue the Word of God), and reach a pre-determined outcome (consensus, compromise, or synthesis).

"When the Word of God is dialogued (as opposed to being taught didactically) between believers and unbelievers... and consensus is reached – agreement that all are comfortable with – then the message of God's Word has been watered down... and the participants have been conditioned to accept (and even celebrate) their compromise (synthesis). The new synthesis becomes the starting point (thesis) for the next meeting, and the process of continual change (innovation) continues.

"The fear of alienation from the group is the pressure that prevents an individual from standing firm for the truth of the Word of God, and such a one usually remains silent (self-editing). The fear of man (rejection) overrides the fear of God. The end result is a 'paradigm shift' in how one processes factual information."

Deceived by the Dialectic Process


i stand my ground.
no consensus on Charismatic heresies.


but - i'm planning a new book anyways:) (after i finish my new daemonlogy handbook)....these cool titles are taken but something along these lines.

Avoiding the Hegelian Dialectic Trap and Never Compromising Your Values
Avoiding the Hegelian Dialectic Trap and Standing Your Ground
 
D

danschance

Guest
#76
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

danschance. Do you agree with there being women preachers/pastors/etc?
I am not clear about what you are asking. It is a fact that today we have women pastors and chaplains. I won't be a part of a church with a woman pastor as senior pastor. The bible seems clear on this.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#77
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I am not clear about what you are asking. It is a fact that today we have women pastors and chaplains. I won't be a part of a church with a woman pastor as senior pastor. The bible seems clear on this.
That's all I was asking.
I'm trying to figure out where you're at in your doctrine/beliefs.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#78
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Put this back in context...next to post it was posted to...then it makes sense
but i think you knew that.

I did not intend to be generous and kind in my statement, thankyou anyway.
and you tried to prove me with this post of yours. good work:rolleyes:
OK.....Glad that in context I was wrong. I don't know what you mean by "proving you".
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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#79
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I had never heard of a Jezebel Spirit before this thread. It is invented and man made.

I went to Pentecostal Churches and non-denominational charismatic churches from 1980 to 1995 and it was never mentioned.

I went to an Evangelical Free Church from 1995 to 2000 and never heard of it.

I went to a Missionary and Alliance Church for 2 years and never heard of it.

I went to a Southern Baptist Church from 2005-2011 and never heard of it.

I currently go to a North American Baptist Church and I have never heard of it preached or talked about.

I was in Seminary 7 years part time, and learned amazing things, but NEVER heard of a Jezebel Spirit.

Makes me think it might be something American, and made up!! I don't really care what the denomination, but I will say the whole topic was introduced by Pentecostal, whether that is important or not, I do not know or care!

As for 1 Tim. 2:12, I have talked about this before, in the Greek.

1. You never make a doctrine out of one Scripture, esp. a cultural one.

2. The word for "authority" in the passage is authentein, which is a hapax legomena - the only time it appears anywhere in the Bible. It is NOT exousia, which is the usual word for "authority" esp. the authority that comes from God.

A Hapax Legomena needs to be interpreted in light of extra-biblical sources, because there is no way to interpret and compare to other Bible verses. This word has been translated in over FORTY ways, and probably "domineering" is the best way to translate it.

3. Looking closely at the KJV version, the grammar is also very important.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Tim. 2:12

Note that it says "A" woman, and "THE" man. "The" is the definite article, referring to ONE person!! Not every man in the world. "A" is the indefinite article, but scholars believe that it was a woman that Paul wanted to remain anonymous, in order to restore her to the church.

Also the word for "silence" is VOLUNTARY! It is not a command.

There is no doubt, in Ephesus there were women (maybe former priestess of Artemis??) who were domineering and causing problems.

But to extend this to a doctrine that all women must be subject to ALL men for ALL time is going far beyond the context and the text.

This whole topic continues to be a parody and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the Bible, and tries to perpetuate the unbiblical concept that men are to be in authority over women.

In fact, Christ is to be in authority over all of us.

[SUP] "[/SUP]For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority." Col. 2:9-10

Women should not dominate over men. No doubt about it. Men should not dominate over women. We all need to be in mutual submission to one another, just as Paul says.

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

It is so sad this doctrine continues to flourish in all churches, and is limiting not just women, but hinders the salvation of those who are lost. This is not about the world influencing the church, but rather reading the Bible contextually and with respect to the original languages, instead of the translations of men with a bias to hierarchical opinions.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#80
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

actually if you studied more than paperback theology
This is pergorative and meant to be nothing more than an insult.

Actually no. it means people learn their theology out of paperback books. Tell me where did you learn your demonology? and deliverance theology? Paper or hard back?


you would understand what you call the spirit realm is not
Right, we all know you are the want to be the final arbiter, final authority on what is and what is not, according to your own opinion. All others you castigate, demean and ridicule. Are you upset at how i talked to Maggie? did you read her post? did it strike you in your theology? Yes! Ok if it struck you in your theology then everything is ok..right? And you got liked by your group think folk. But you never got back to me on the content. The theology. And your calling evey fallen disposition a person can have a demon spirit....thats taught in paperbacks. You knew that...so ouch!



the word spirit is used of a mindset or disposition of a man...not to be mistaken as a demon.
Right, you alone get to decide what is true and what is false.
No im not paperback authors are...sheesh you know that.

Go study then reload.

More insults...as if those who do not agree with you are more ignorant or less intelligent.


I already know what your problem is..but I made the post to maggie, noone else, she understands that. But nice shot...i like the attention...spend little time here these days. Would you like a thread later on demons and deliverance and get into it? I know thats your rub. How can reload be an insult..to maggie when she shot off her gun at a church group? well it cant but you didnt want to see the point..becuase you got an owie
:eek:reading the post


No Jezebel spirit
...unless your talking a disposition like Jezebel
Again, you dictate to others what to believe and define the terms of an argument according to your own rules.You got a really big owie..i see.

I wish you were more generous and kind with your opinions and statements, but you are what you prove yourself to be.

Your right im me. insert my judgement and brandname here--------->___________________.ty
You wanna go over scripture and check out the word spirit? Or do you just wanna make me look good?:p