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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
If you want to go back to your Hebrew Roots, 1still_waters, and live between the fall and the resurrection, go right ahead. Christ has redeemed us from the roles that were created at the fall. This "order of creation" is a real smoke screen for the truth, no doubt about it!
"To the woman he said,“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.” Gen. 3:16-19
This is where the roles of man and women started, nothing about roles in Gen. 2. (If you want to discuss the word EZER in the Hebrew, we can do that, too!)
And I am not seeing "regions" anywhere in the Greek for 1 Cor. 14. Perhaps you could point it out to me?
ESV says "the women should keep silent in the churches."
Greek says "Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν,"
There is NO "ALL" or "regions" in the Greek. "All" is panta, or παντα, which is no where found in this passage. What version are you using to twist Scripture anyway???
Like Stephen said, take a course or two in Greek, and then maybe we can discuss this issue as equals in the Greek language! (And Hebrew might help too!)
If you want to go back to your Hebrew Roots, 1still_waters, and live between the fall and the resurrection, go right ahead. Christ has redeemed us from the roles that were created at the fall. This "order of creation" is a real smoke screen for the truth, no doubt about it!
"To the woman he said,“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.” Gen. 3:16-19
This is where the roles of man and women started, nothing about roles in Gen. 2. (If you want to discuss the word EZER in the Hebrew, we can do that, too!)
And I am not seeing "regions" anywhere in the Greek for 1 Cor. 14. Perhaps you could point it out to me?
ESV says "the women should keep silent in the churches."
Greek says "Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν,"
There is NO "ALL" or "regions" in the Greek. "All" is panta, or παντα, which is no where found in this passage. What version are you using to twist Scripture anyway???
Like Stephen said, take a course or two in Greek, and then maybe we can discuss this issue as equals in the Greek language! (And Hebrew might help too!)
K
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
The Jezebel spirit is taught in many pentecostal churches and word of faith ( which I personally reject because they teach that we are little Gods and if we don't talk about sin we won't or that if we confess a maserati that we will get a maserati). But true line pents show this teaching as spirit that rebels against God and that is what human nature does. Think of it Jezebel had the prophet Elijah preaching what was right and she wanted to have him killed. One of the most powerful prophets in history yet she rejected Him and His God, and further more convinced her husband the king to do her bidding. Kind a sounds like Clinton and Hillary if you ask me!!!
The Jezebel spirit is taught in many pentecostal churches and word of faith ( which I personally reject because they teach that we are little Gods and if we don't talk about sin we won't or that if we confess a maserati that we will get a maserati). But true line pents show this teaching as spirit that rebels against God and that is what human nature does. Think of it Jezebel had the prophet Elijah preaching what was right and she wanted to have him killed. One of the most powerful prophets in history yet she rejected Him and His God, and further more convinced her husband the king to do her bidding. Kind a sounds like Clinton and Hillary if you ask me!!!
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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
Twice you say
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-9.html#post1123920
You say that in regards to..
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was first formed, then Eve
That text appears to be appealing to male headship.
But as you say...
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-9.html#post1123920
So let's go to other scripture and see if there is anything to this male headship thing...
Eph 5
Ok, so we see that even though we're one in Christ, man is still head of his wife.
So this male headship thing is some clearer.
The immediate context gives clarity on male headship even in the church.
So it's in the church and in marriage.
Verse 13 is linked to 12.
The FOR indicates the reason for 12.
I'm going to the store FOR milk.
For links what's beFORE to what's after.
It's really really simple.
Twice you say
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-9.html#post1123920
You say that in regards to..
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was first formed, then Eve
That text appears to be appealing to male headship.
But as you say...
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ic-pentecostal-wof-circles-9.html#post1123920
So let's go to other scripture and see if there is anything to this male headship thing...
Eph 5
Ok, so we see that even though we're one in Christ, man is still head of his wife.
So this male headship thing is some clearer.
The immediate context gives clarity on male headship even in the church.
So it's in the church and in marriage.
Verse 13 is linked to 12.
The FOR indicates the reason for 12.
I'm going to the store FOR milk.
For links what's beFORE to what's after.
It's really really simple.
1
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
I reference u here.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...c-pentecostal-wof-circles-10.html#post1123948
I reference u here.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...c-pentecostal-wof-circles-10.html#post1123948
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
And how do you know this vision was from God? I am aware that the Bible does talk about visions but again not all are from God.
That's not what I asked. You said there were many demons with the same name. Again where does the Bible state that?
But you are trying to use the argument that many do have the same names when the Bible DOES NOT state that either.
Do you have any idea how many people that are in the homosexual "community" that have been through deliverance. Guess what IT DIDN'T WORK. Wrong problem,the problem is a matter of the heart. But instead lets blame a demon for our own wrong passions,lusts and sin. Never tell them that what they really need to do is overcome the temptations which are common to man and a matter of the flesh which we need to put to death which is a battle in and of itself. Let's make them cripples instead of victors. Never mind the fact that people that have gone through deliverance over and over and over again with the very same problem and it hasn't ended. I have heard the other side of this too.
And how do you know this vision was from God? I am aware that the Bible does talk about visions but again not all are from God.
That's not what I asked. You said there were many demons with the same name. Again where does the Bible state that?
But you are trying to use the argument that many do have the same names when the Bible DOES NOT state that either.
Do you have any idea how many people that are in the homosexual "community" that have been through deliverance. Guess what IT DIDN'T WORK. Wrong problem,the problem is a matter of the heart. But instead lets blame a demon for our own wrong passions,lusts and sin. Never tell them that what they really need to do is overcome the temptations which are common to man and a matter of the flesh which we need to put to death which is a battle in and of itself. Let's make them cripples instead of victors. Never mind the fact that people that have gone through deliverance over and over and over again with the very same problem and it hasn't ended. I have heard the other side of this too.
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
With regards to Eph. 5:22, sadly for complimentarians, the word "submit" does not appear in the original Greek!! . Hypotassio or to "voluntarily come under" only appears in the previous passage:
"ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ." Eph. 5:21
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.: Eph. 5:21.
The verses following, most scholars agree agree are directed towards the MAN to love his wife as Christ loved the church. That was quite a new thing in those days, where women were treated as the property of either the father or the husband.
As far as the JS, I posted much earlier, I have never heard of it. Perhaps my absence from Pentecostal/Charismatic circles for almost 20 years accounts for this lack.
I do find it strange that I have a library with thousands of books on theology, commentaries, and text books, and not ONE mentions the JS.
As far as feminism, I renounce that totally! I believe in what the Bible truly says, not what people have twisted it to conform to a worldly pattern - mainly the 1950's, where the little women stated home and watched soap operas, while her husband went into the world to work.
Time to conform to the Bible, not the writings of John Piper and Wayne Grudem. I honestly tried to read their book, but ended up laughing so hard I had to stop!!
With regards to Eph. 5:22, sadly for complimentarians, the word "submit" does not appear in the original Greek!! . Hypotassio or to "voluntarily come under" only appears in the previous passage:
"ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ." Eph. 5:21
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.: Eph. 5:21.
The verses following, most scholars agree agree are directed towards the MAN to love his wife as Christ loved the church. That was quite a new thing in those days, where women were treated as the property of either the father or the husband.
As far as the JS, I posted much earlier, I have never heard of it. Perhaps my absence from Pentecostal/Charismatic circles for almost 20 years accounts for this lack.
I do find it strange that I have a library with thousands of books on theology, commentaries, and text books, and not ONE mentions the JS.
As far as feminism, I renounce that totally! I believe in what the Bible truly says, not what people have twisted it to conform to a worldly pattern - mainly the 1950's, where the little women stated home and watched soap operas, while her husband went into the world to work.
Time to conform to the Bible, not the writings of John Piper and Wayne Grudem. I honestly tried to read their book, but ended up laughing so hard I had to stop!!
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
Paul expressed his desire that the Corinthians fall behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. That gives us an idea of how long the gifts will last.
If you believe the gifts cease, why would demonic activity cease?
that's what i been tryin' to tell ya!
since the gifts ceased, why play demonbuster?
since the gifts ceased, why play demonbuster?
If you believe the gifts cease, why would demonic activity cease?
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
In answer to the OP, the concept of the Jezebel spirit rests on the idea that someone received a revelation that there is a Jezebel spirit that troubles churches. The teaching is not found in scripture. Since Charismatic, etc. churches believe in spiritual gifts, it makes sense that these churches would be churches where such doctrines would be found. You wouldn't expect to find talk of the Jezebel spirit in cessationist churches.
Was the first reference to the "Jezebel spirit" Francis Frangipagne's "Three Battlegrouds". I've never read it, but I read somewhere that the book unmasked the Jezebel spirit.
Btw, I don't think most Pentecostal or Charismatic churches teach on such things.
In answer to the OP, the concept of the Jezebel spirit rests on the idea that someone received a revelation that there is a Jezebel spirit that troubles churches. The teaching is not found in scripture. Since Charismatic, etc. churches believe in spiritual gifts, it makes sense that these churches would be churches where such doctrines would be found. You wouldn't expect to find talk of the Jezebel spirit in cessationist churches.
Was the first reference to the "Jezebel spirit" Francis Frangipagne's "Three Battlegrouds". I've never read it, but I read somewhere that the book unmasked the Jezebel spirit.
Btw, I don't think most Pentecostal or Charismatic churches teach on such things.
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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
Oh please.
So it should read
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
not..
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
The first one is the right one?
If submit isn't there, then what are they to do unto their husbands as unto the Lord?
If there is no headship, then what does the ..as unto the Lord mean in relation to the wife?
Gimme a break.
Oh please.
So it should read
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
not..
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
The first one is the right one?
If submit isn't there, then what are they to do unto their husbands as unto the Lord?
If there is no headship, then what does the ..as unto the Lord mean in relation to the wife?
Gimme a break.
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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
The newest NIV has it in there, and they're kinda femmy
[h=3]Instructions for Christian Households[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
The newest NIV has it in there, and they're kinda femmy
[h=3]Instructions for Christian Households[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
So for Angela's to work.it goes from ONE church to a set of regional churches...then whole words just start disappearing from the Greek..Hopefully not entire sentences...
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
So for Angela's to work.it goes from ONE church to a set of regional churches...then whole words just start disappearing from the Greek..Hopefully not entire sentences...
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
Joel and Kathy try to make a big deal out of hupotasso not being in verse 23 (or Joel does). But he really butchers the Greek, redefines Greek words with no basis, and things like that. He said he used to think the Strong's was inspired, which signal he's not someone to go to for Greek. And their approach of blaming everything on the husband and having wive's threaten divorce if the husband won't go to their conferences is pretty bad.
I haven't heard anyone argue that 'hupotasso' is missing from the command in Colossians 3, I Peter 3 or other passages that tell women to submit to their husbands, so either way it doesn't change Christian doctrine on the issue.
In some manuscript traditions, the word 'hupotasso' shows up. In others it does not. It doesn't matter anyway, because the verb carries over from verse 22. Without the word emphasizes wive's submitting in my opinion. It further supports the argument that when Paul says to submit to one another, he means for each person to submit to the appropriate person, rather than everyone submitting equally to each other. If Paul's argument is "Submit to one another: husbands to wives, children to parents, and slaves to master" leaving out 'submit in 'husbands to wives' underscores the fact that he is telling certain individuals to submit to other individuals.
i've heard the argument that the word may not have been in verse 23 originally, but that the daily scripture reading left off at verse 22 and started the next day with verse 23, and so 'hupotasso' was added to make it make sense on the second day when verse 22 as not read. That's a theory.
Joel and Kathy try to make a big deal out of hupotasso not being in verse 23 (or Joel does). But he really butchers the Greek, redefines Greek words with no basis, and things like that. He said he used to think the Strong's was inspired, which signal he's not someone to go to for Greek. And their approach of blaming everything on the husband and having wive's threaten divorce if the husband won't go to their conferences is pretty bad.
I haven't heard anyone argue that 'hupotasso' is missing from the command in Colossians 3, I Peter 3 or other passages that tell women to submit to their husbands, so either way it doesn't change Christian doctrine on the issue.
In some manuscript traditions, the word 'hupotasso' shows up. In others it does not. It doesn't matter anyway, because the verb carries over from verse 22. Without the word emphasizes wive's submitting in my opinion. It further supports the argument that when Paul says to submit to one another, he means for each person to submit to the appropriate person, rather than everyone submitting equally to each other. If Paul's argument is "Submit to one another: husbands to wives, children to parents, and slaves to master" leaving out 'submit in 'husbands to wives' underscores the fact that he is telling certain individuals to submit to other individuals.
i've heard the argument that the word may not have been in verse 23 originally, but that the daily scripture reading left off at verse 22 and started the next day with verse 23, and so 'hupotasso' was added to make it make sense on the second day when verse 22 as not read. That's a theory.
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Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
Even if it's NOT there this IS there..
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
That is really clear.
You can't talk away male headship there.
The husband's headship is compared to the headship of Christ.
That's pretty strong talk.
Even if it's NOT there this IS there..
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
That is really clear.
You can't talk away male headship there.
The husband's headship is compared to the headship of Christ.
That's pretty strong talk.
Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl
I'd like to point out the post you were responding to was pro male headship and pro wives submitting to husbands. If the word hupotasso isn't supposed to be in verse 23, it is in verse 22 and applies to verse 23 as well.
I'd like to point out the post you were responding to was pro male headship and pro wives submitting to husbands. If the word hupotasso isn't supposed to be in verse 23, it is in verse 22 and applies to verse 23 as well.