Free will? really?

[eternally-gratefull]

I think there is confusion between how God originally designed man and women and the effect of sin on the nature after the Fall.

Once you think on that for a while, we see that no man 'freely' chooses God.. because we cannot choose outwith our nature..even God does not to anything outside his Holy Nature..

What you fail to see though is God said ALL MEN know they are rightly condemned based on what they know of God in his word, In his creation and in the things he wrote on their heart.

if ALL men can know they are condemned. then all men have the capability to seek what can save them. This is when God draws them in and opens their minds.. to show him the truth of his love..

It is not doing good. nor even trying to do good. it is seeking.

Knock and it shall be opened. seek and ye shall find.

a person who is drowning can know he needs help. But in pride can reject help and continue to save himself, or in pride, refuse to admit he needs saved.

It is not the person who came to save hims fault he will die. it is his fault.. The one who is saved, just admited he needed saved, and trusted the one sent to save him. thats all.

 

[phil36]

Rather thn assuming it unbiblical like you show how it is..its very easy to make comments..without proof?

well I usually wait for someone else to first try to prove something unbiblical before i respond.

 

[phil36]

What you fail to see though is God said ALL MEN know they are rightly condemned based on what they know of God in his word, In his creation and in the things he wrote on their heart.

if ALL men can know they are condemned. then all men have the capability to seek what can save them. This is when God draws them in and opens their minds.. to show him the truth of his love..

It is not doing good. nor even trying to do good. it is seeking.

Knock and it shall be opened. seek and ye shall find.

a person who is drowning can know he needs help. But in pride can reject help and continue to save himself, or in pride, refuse to admit he needs saved.

It is not the person who came to save hims fault he will die. it is his fault.. The one who is saved, just admited he needed saved, and trusted the one sent to save him. thats all.

I think you need to read what the real situation is not what you emotionally feel.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1


Now read the above and try and align that to your sinking man story... after all it is just a story..not how scripture works..

And by the way after reading the scripture wil realise man doesn't want rescued they are quite happen in their sins..I certainly was. before God renewed my heart and opened my eyes...only then could I see the real reality!

 

[Abiding]

Rather thn assuming it unbiblical like you show how it is..its very easy to make comments..without proof?

its usually with me ill make comments to a post that made a comment.
If i want to reply to a post with scripture ill use scripture.
some threads expand into a larger topic than the OP. So at this time
im not sure "what" im supposed to "prove"

 

[djness]

I have read a few times now of people saying about their 'free will'. doing this by their 'fre will' and doing that by their 'free will'.

Where does the bible teach you have 'free will'?

124 posts and you don't agree with anyone. The words free will don't appear in the bible, the implication does but you have already denied everyone that.

Not only do you have no free will in this life but if you manage to get into heaven you will spend eternity....

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

Calvinistic view of God = It crashes free-will where individuals had no free-will at all. A wrong definition of Pre-destination. Like He selects few and condemning the others.

The bible talks about free-will for everyone as well as predestination. But not the predestination in which the calvinists wrongly explained. God in His sovereign and omniscient power sees many things before they happen. Everything were preordained or predestined. Do you know that God saw your will before the foundation of the world? It means God saw you saying " YES to His Son Jesus" before everything...or He even saw your "free-will" rejecting the gift He offered. He knew already who were His or not. There's no surprise for God. Everything has revealed already.

God did not program adam as sinner...adam in his own free-will he chose to obey the serpent and became sinner. God did not create judas for betraying Jesus. Judas in his own free-will chose to betray his master for the money. Hitler chose to become a great murderer in his own free-will. see? it's all about free-will.

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

With all due respect....This thread is just another calvinistic twisted doctrine lol

Nothing's new under the sun .....hmmmm

 

[phil36]

124 posts and you don't agree with anyone. The words free will don't appear in the bible, the implication does but you have already denied everyone that.

Not only do you have no free will in this life but if you manage to get into heaven you will spend eternity....

I think you mislead..maybe 124 post but only a handle full of the same people.

And you obviously have not been reading either and just jumping to conclusions..I certainly agree and affirm man has a will

 

[phil36]

Calvinistic view of God = It crashes free-will where individuals had no free-will at all. A wrong definition of Pre-destination. Like He selects few and condemning the others.

The bible talks about free-will for everyone as well as predestination. But not the predestination in which the calvinists wrongly explained. God in His sovereign and omniscient power sees many things before they happen. Everything were preordained or predestined. Do you know that God saw your will before the foundation of the world? It means God saw you saying " YES to His Son Jesus" before everything...or He even saw your "free-will" rejecting the gift He offered. He knew already who were His or not. There's no surprise for God. Everything has revealed already.

God did not program adam as sinner...adam in his own free-will he chose to obey the serpent and became sinner. God did not create judas for betraying Jesus. Judas in his own free-will chose to betray his master for the money. Hitler chose to become a great murderer in his own free-will. see? it's all about free-will.

The bible does not talk about free will... it does say we have a will most certainly... and reformed theology is not twisted..

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

The bible does not talk about free will... it does say we have a will most certainly... and reformed theology is not twisted..

JUst like the Trinity...nowhere to be found words in the bible but it doesn't mean it's not there......there are a lot of verses can back up free-will

 

[Splagna]

And by the way after reading the scripture wil realise man doesn't want rescued they are quite happen in their sins..I certainly was.

Really? You must not have been a very good sinner.

Great thread on Reformed thinking, by the way.

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

@phil36

What do u think of me? can't a filipino like me be saved since your God selected only the elects? Im afraid your god will select only the whites since he loves to collect and select..i really hope not ...lol hahaha

 

[phil36]

JUst like the Trinity...nowhere to be found words in the bible but it doesn't mean it's not there......there are a lot of verses can back up free-will

Hi Fire of Elijah,

I don't think you will find one verse in context that shows free will... there are plenty that show man has a will. human beings will not do anything outside of their nature...that's why the will is ....not free.. we certainly have free agency..we can choose what colour of car we are going to buy, what we are going to have for dinner, what shoes we are going to put on... what hairstyle we would like...but all these decisions are tied to who you are...

the unregenerate man can choose to do good... but they will not be pleasing to God..Pauls tells these good works are like filthy rags... can a moral agent choose what is morally pleasing to God? what does the bible say... in either state!

Anyhow be blessed Fire of Elijah.

 

[phil36]

@phil36

What do u think of me? can't a filipino like me be saved since your God selected only the elects? Im afraid your god will select only the whites since he loves to collect and select..i really hope not ...lol hahaha

Hi Fire of Elijah,

I must admit I do take offence of your comments I'm not a racist and condemn all racism. But it is ok, If your are saved then YOU ARE GOD'S EECT... It has nothing to do with skin colour Fire of Elijah and I do not know where you heard that lie from.


But be assured.. I saved you are the elect in Jesus (The bible says so). I think you need to re evaluate who you get your information from. because I don't know of any Christian would say salvation is based on skin colour.

 

[AmmiAmmiel]

Hi Fire of Elijah,

I don't think you will find one verse in context that shows free will... there are plenty that show man has a will. human beings will not do anything outside of their nature...that's why the will is ....not free.. we certainly have free agency..we can choose what colour of car we are going to buy, what we are going to have for dinner, what shoes we are going to put on... what hairstyle we would like...but all these decisions are tied to who you are...

the unregenerate man can choose to do good... but they will not be pleasing to God..Pauls tells these good works are like filthy rags... can a moral agent choose what is morally pleasing to God? what does the bible say... in either state!

Anyhow be blessed Fire of Elijah.

You make some very good points Sir, but all choices we make fall inside of God's Sovereign plan. So only in this sense do we make "free" choices. I'm a hard determinist, which believes that everything is decreed by God's Sovereign Will. Even what color of car I'm goin to buy. Every little detail is planned perfectly by God, there is nothing that God leaves unplanned. If it were so, some things in His created order would be left incomplete and thus not perfect[: this is why Arminians have a huge problem in how they view God. Their God doesn't have a perfect created order as described in Scripture,..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you need to read what the real situation is not what you emotionally feel.

on the contrary. I think you just need to read what it says and take it literally. and stop using your emotions to interpret it any other way.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,(of their own free will. they supress the truth!) [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, (can't take it any other way than literally. They plainly CAN know God) because God has made it plain to them. And it is Gods doing, he made it known to them. So to say they can not know is to say God lied.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (if people can not know as you say, then they have excuse. God hear says they know. God made it clear to them.)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, (no question. they knew God. unlike what reformers say, they can;t know God. does not get any plainer than this) they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, (they knew truth, But chose to believe the lie, They did not think it was worthy to retain the knowledge of God. God did not hide it from them. or make it so they could not understand it. They freely chose to hide it and harden their hearts to it (back to the harden your heart thing) so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1

Again no question. THEY KNOW.

1 God showed it to them
2. God made it known to them
3. God did not hide it from them, they hid it from themselves. and CHOSE not to continue to know it.

Again, try to stop interpreting with feelings as you claim I do. and just interpret it literally for what it says, there is no mistaking what it says.

Now read the above and try and align that to your sinking man story... after all it is just a story..not how scripture works..

lol. the above read fits the story.

it was made known the man needs help.

It was made known he was in danger

It was made know (because of this) he needed to trust God.

the man hid the truth, and in doing so drowned.

And by the way after reading the scripture wil realise man doesn't want rescued they are quite happen in their sins..I certainly was. before God renewed my heart and opened my eyes...only then could I see the real reality!

lol. I was quite happy in my sin too. What I was not happy about was that I knew my sin condemned me, And I was in danger of eternal damnation because of what God made known to me.

So even though I loved my sin, I chose to be rescued. And God changed my heart attitude about my sin.

 

[djness]

I think you mislead..maybe 124 post but only a handle full of the same people.

And you obviously have not been reading either and just jumping to conclusions..I certainly agree and affirm man has a will

I know you do, you have repeated it over and over again. I have read them all and you are just setting your record on repeat. Every post you just say the same thing.

I actually agreed with your original post in part and you disagreed with me, just to prove a point.

 

[phil36]

Hi eternal,

Instead of going through my position again, I'll reprint post 119 (well think it was that number lol), Im still in shock after being called a racist.. anyhow until I collect my thoughts again.

That's a very good question. A good example is the assyrians now they with their own will wanted to conquer Israel
and they did, yet God had wiled it would happen.. and if you read Isaiah 10, he holds them accountable...

we can go to Act 2 and 4,

Now read especially Acts 4:27-28 very carefully.

There are 4 groups of people here:

Herod (singular)

Pontius Pilate (singular)

Gentiles (plural)

the people (plural Jews)

Now using their own will or free agency, they met and conspired together (that's what the text says)

Yet we also read that it was God's 'power and 'will' do so beforehand... God's had willed that this would happen before it did.

their will's and God's will were compatible... how this works out no one really knows... but it is all through scripture.

If it was by the 4 groups 'free will' then your basically saying God was a bystander..and that it all worked out fine in the end.

Remember here we have 4 groups of different people using thier will...but God had already by power and will determined it would happen.

on the contrary. I think you just need to read what it says and take it literally. and stop using your emotions to interpret it any other way.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,(of their own free will. they supress the truth!) [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, (can't take it any other way than literally. They plainly CAN know God) because God has made it plain to them. And it is Gods doing, he made it known to them. So to say they can not know is to say God lied.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (if people can not know as you say, then they have excuse. God hear says they know. God made it clear to them.)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, (no question. they knew God. unlike what reformers say, they can;t know God. does not get any plainer than this) they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, (they knew truth, But chose to believe the lie, They did not think it was worthy to retain the knowledge of God. God did not hide it from them. or make it so they could not understand it. They freely chose to hide it and harden their hearts to it (back to the harden your heart thing) so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1

Again no question. THEY KNOW.

1 God showed it to them
2. God made it known to them
3. God did not hide it from them, they hid it from themselves. and CHOSE not to continue to know it.

Again, try to stop interpreting with feelings as you claim I do. and just interpret it literally for what it says, there is no mistaking what it says.




lol. the above read fits the story.

it was made known the man needs help.

It was made known he was in danger

It was made know (because of this) he needed to trust God.

the man hid the truth, and in doing so drowned.



lol. I was quite happy in my sin too. What I was not happy about was that I knew my sin condemned me, And I was in danger of eternal damnation because of what God made known to me.

So even though I loved my sin, I chose to be rescued. And God changed my heart attitude about my sin.

 

[AlayaRose]

The very definition of God is love. He created us to love and to be loved by him. if we have no free will then how can we choose love. Force love would make us robots and me thinks me not a robot. God could have killed Adam and Even on the day they as his law demands. He could have started over and over again. But he wants us to choose not to sin and to choose to love each other and to understand his law for what it means. Sin is a cancer. Once started and you have ever lasting life, think what you life would be like. Example ... Wife is mistreated by her husband and beaten on a daily bases, with sin and ever lasting life, there is no release for her. EVER. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that was their sin and look what the very next generation did. One brother killed the other. from there look at our world now. Rape, murder, lies, theft, ect ect.

 

[royalscot]

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

23So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side
1.
God banished him from the Garden of Eden
2
drove the man out.
for example.
who taught them to write. we know they had word of mouth. how did they comunicate to the next 6000(est) years.
i will place this in a jar. then someone will decode it. find some more, steal a few etc.
6000 years on
i read my bible and saw what god sayed and what humans of that day were doing.
and dub it. as predestanded to understand the past.(just because i can read my bible,or books)
i enjoyed that phil. never though about free /will like that before.