Free will? really?

eternally-gratefull · Aug 6, 2013

Hi eternal,

Instead of going through my position again, I'll reprint post 119 (well think it was that number lol), Im still in shock after being called a racist.. anyhow until I collect my thoughts again.

That's a very good question. A good example is the assyrians now they with their own will wanted to conquer Israel
and they did, yet God had wiled it would happen.. and if you read Isaiah 10, he holds them accountable...

we can go to Act 2 and 4,

Now read especially Acts 4:27-28 very carefully.

There are 4 groups of people here:

Herod (singular)

Pontius Pilate (singular)

Gentiles (plural)

the people (plural Jews)

Now using their own will or free agency, they met and conspired together (that's what the text says)

Yet we also read that it was God's 'power and 'will' do so beforehand... God's had willed that this would happen before it did.

their will's and God's will were compatible... how this works out no one really knows... but it is all through scripture.

If it was by the 4 groups 'free will' then your basically saying God was a bystander..and that it all worked out fine in the end.

Remember here we have 4 groups of different people using thier will...but God had already by power and will determined it would happen.

Actually we do know how. God KNOWS how people will react. and puts people in place he KNOWS will do what he wants.

God did not force those people against their will to do anything. To believe as you do one wo0uld have to say God does.

phil36 · Aug 6, 2013

so its more like a game ..God knows how they will react so build his plan around that?

And I believe both wills are compatible... if someone has free will, how can god be certain they will do what he wants..they might change their minds.. which would mean God doesn't know?

Ariel82 · Aug 6, 2013

phil36 said:

Our will is free because God freed us to choose our actions and learn self control:

Leviticus 22:29 And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord, offer it of your own free will.

Leviticus 19:5 ‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free will.
'

[h=3]James 1:13-15[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Ariel82 · Aug 6, 2013

phil36 said:

you run around in circle with your questions because you redefine or do not accept what most people define or refer to when they say the words "free will"

The freedom of choice: to obey or rebel against' God's commandments.

yet you would define it as MORE as freedom free of God's natural laws. free of what God has created, a freedom only found in the recesses of the mind and never grounded in any sort of reality. a "freedom" no one refers to when they utter the words that human beings have "free will"

I've only read the first page but as to the question of rather we have freedom or not, the Bible gives us this answer:

John 8
[h=3][/h][SUP]31 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Hoffco · Aug 6, 2013

No one is free from God! But, If we are a slave of sin, as Jesus said, we will be free to sin. But if Jesus sets us free, then, we are free to obey Jesus. Jh. 8:34-36 Also look at Rom. 6:22-23 "But now having been set free from sin and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." In the Greek the action is by God, we are passive, "having been freed" The new birth is freely given to us by God, " not the Will of the flesh" or man" Jh, 1:13. Consider Jesus words in Jh. 6:37 & 44 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." and ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;..." draw=force. But we are not forced against or nature or will, God first changes our heart and our will and makes us willing and desiring to come to Jesus. Love to all. Hoffco

peacefulbeliever · Aug 6, 2013

phil36 said:

When God created Adam and Eve. . .He did so wanting a loving relationship with what he had created. He could have "stopped" them at any time from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but he allowed them their freedom to make a choice, regardless of how much that probably hurt Him.

Was God certain that that Adam and Eve would not sin or did he allow them to make that decision regardless of how he felt about it? That is freedom. . .

zone · Aug 6, 2013

phil36 said:

you have free will to continue into the lake of fire.

if God intervenes...GIVE HIM GLORY

NEXT

Ariel82 · Aug 6, 2013

phil36 said:

maybe not as you would choose to define the word "free". however if you allowed others definition of the word "free" in there wouldn't be much debate since it seems you agree with them that humans do have a "will". however you believe it is enslaved to their natures.

I wonder that you don't mention the two dual natures that war against each other mentioned in Galatians: the flesh and the Spirit. hmm..

not really who a person is. those choices are superficial and are often tied to other factors: cost, preferences, previous experiences, etc. car color, dinner menus, shoes, or hairstyles are all of a superficial nature and only effect the outward form of a person. God is more concerned with the inward heart, mind and spirit.

The real question should be do we have a choice to obey God or allow our desires to entice us away from Him? Do we have that freedom of choice?

that one needs faith.

without a NEW heart given by God, one would not even desire to choose to do good. However, God frees our will by giving us a heart that can feel and we can choose to follow the flesh or follow the Spirit of God.

Galatians 5
[h=3][/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Abiding · Aug 6, 2013

Actually there are two truths....some accept it...others can only handle one
this is what happens when people cant just take scripture at face value and
try to jamb it into a logical. then the fight starts. snoor yawn and fit your own faV. sarcasm here___________.

CoooCaw · Aug 6, 2013

A CALVINIST TROLL LOL

phil36 said:

Reformedjason · Aug 6, 2013

He is right , coo coo for coco puffs

Miss · Aug 7, 2013

[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Deu 30:19[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We also cannot choose, not to choose, because in doing so we have chosen.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

phil36 said:

If you don't believe in free will, then you are not free and are nothing more than a puppet on the stings of a tyrant
God gave free choice, (will) to Adam and told Adam of the consequence, God not being a liar followed through and man became alive to the flesh and dead to the Spirit of God.
Now by the cross of Christ we are offered a free gift from God the Father of Christ for new life, dead to flesh nature of selfishness that does not have Mercy to all as God does. Or alive to God in God's Spirit given to us by the proof of the resurrected Christ.
All we are left with today is to believe God into God, or not to believe. Which is free Choice and free will
I have Chosen God's will over my will and have chosen to be co-crucified to self with Christ at the cross. This choice is and was mine to make. therefore I have been made right
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

And submitted me self to God to be led by God through the Holy Spirit of promise.
This is all by free will to believe or not believe
pretty simple to me if not to you, that is your free will to choose or not.

SpiritofFire · Aug 7, 2013

There is no free will. All of our choices come from what God provides, and thus a slave to sin or righteousness.

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

Starcrash said:

Do you think God is Merciful and Loving? If you have no free will to believe or not believe, to make this choice aware, knowingly How can God condemn righteously, when giving all the last and final chance to either believe or not.
Is not to believe or not a free will choice?
Only God can reveal this truth to those that choose to believe, and those that choose not to will know this truth stated here and have made there free will choice as to whether they believe God or not. And all consequences will be just. As God is just in all God does period.
I am so thankful for free will from God and God's goodness has led me to choose to trust God and asked to be in God's will, Giving up my self will and taking on the new will of God's Love to all and thus am free from this world's traps

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

phil36 said:

No free choice, no free will, you make God out to be a tyrant and not Merciful and loving as God is Merciful and loving
No thanks to the God you are presenting to me is not the God of all, Christ's Father
Thanks and be blessed, God does love you and all shown through the finished work of Son Jesus at the cross. For us to receive new life in the Spirit of God by the resurrected Christ. A god given free gift to us all if we will believe into Christ we shall be saved by God through the Son. No other way to Life eternally.

zone · Aug 7, 2013

homwardbound said:

1) you're not the first Adam who was free - but, as you yourself just said, after Adam fell:

man became alive to the flesh and dead to the Spirit of God

so, being dead to God, and alive (enslaved) to sin...how is this free?

a slave is free to move about within his estate as a slave.
he has free will to decide which sins he chooses to indulge in today.
his world is all sin. he serves sin.

is a slave free?

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

phil36 said:

I think you need to read what the real situation is not what you emotionally feel.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1

Now read the above and try and align that to your sinking man story... after all it is just a story..not how scripture works..

And by the way after reading the scripture wil realise man doesn't want rescued they are quite happen in their sins..I certainly was. before God renewed my heart and opened my eyes...only then could I see the real reality!

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! really, so what is this real reality you are claiming here, please enlighten us, because I see you without excuse., yet only you know and God Knows, be blessed and thank you

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

FIRE_of_ELIJAH said:

you know the Elect are none other than the first Chosen and God chose to bring in the gentile and all races into the same as the Elect (First Chosen) by Faith in the Son and through the Son we have Life
[h=3]Romans 11:25-32[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [SUP]27 [/SUP]for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [SUP]31 [/SUP]even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
[h=3]Ephesians 6:10-20[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [SUP]16 [/SUP]above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [SUP]18 [/SUP]praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [SUP]19 [/SUP]and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [SUP]20 [/SUP]for which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
these all apply as into believe what is said and follow what is said by God doing it through us, by asking in free will for God to go what God knows what is best for us to do.
For me is to hide in God's Spirit safe and secure, where no sin can occur

homwardbound · Aug 7, 2013

phil36 said:

Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the Lord for a burnt offering;
Numbers 15:3 and will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd, or of the flock
Ezra 3:5 and afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord.
Ezra 7:16 and all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
Psalm 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O Lord; for it is good.

And then God says what God will do and has done by God's own free will through his son Jesus.
Hosea 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God is not a tyrant, No God is wonderfully merciful and loving, waiting for us all to repent and believe and yet peole are still in their sins, why?
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Are any of us by God forced to belief or not believe?
John 16:9 of sin, because they believe not on me;

Either we believe on Christ or we don't pretty plain and simple

Free will? really?

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