Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.
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L
If you're going to use the argument of "He died in our place what makes you think that He wouldn't keep us from the hour of temptation", I would have to counter with, God has pressed upon me relentlessly for the last 12+ years through trials and tribulation, what makes me think he would spare me the "great" tribulation? Neither argument is an argument at all though, it's nothing more than feelings.
If I have not received an enlightment from God via his Word and Holy Spirit, I will not argue a position just to be right about something.
If I have not received an enlightment from God via his Word and Holy Spirit, I will not argue a position just to be right about something.
C
watchmen, you're being very judgmental bro. You're saying someone else's view of certain scripture is satanic. As a nondenominational Christian, this is what my church (at least, the church I attend) believes.
We believe in one God, the maker of everything invisible and invisible. We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, that is the same essence of the Father. We believe He came from Heaven, became human, and died for our sins.
We believe He rose on the third day to ascend to Heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father.
We believe He will return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in the rapture. We believe in the tribulation.
I believe, however, what IS of satan is what this argument amongst God's people has become. Your blatant judgment of your fellow Christian, insisting that they do not respect the whole of Christianity and will have to answer for getting such a small thing as a sequence of events wrong, is not something our God taught that we should do.
How do I know this?
Romans 14:1 - Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
This is a disputable matter. Both sides of the argument have valid points.
Now, stop judging, stop insulting, stop belittling, stop treating yourself as some final authority on any matter, because you're not. God is. And, if you were more knowledgeable on the Word instead of paying attention to such trivial things as a sequence of events, you would know that the Bible says that God looks lower on those who judge and discourage their fellow Christians, rather than those who misinterpret something that will be insignificant (NOT A SIN, BY THE WAY) in the end.
I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss these things. I think it's great that we have this place to learn and discuss, but seriously, you're obviously not looking on your brethren with love and respect. It's obscenely obvious that you're more worried about being right than encouraging others. Correct that.
Also, I apologize for the sarcasm and whatnot before, even that was out-of-line. I should've said this first, but the devil was in this from the beginning. We all played into his trap. Let's either agree to disagree on non-essentials, or learn to respect each others' views.
We believe in one God, the maker of everything invisible and invisible. We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, that is the same essence of the Father. We believe He came from Heaven, became human, and died for our sins.
We believe He rose on the third day to ascend to Heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father.
We believe He will return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in the rapture. We believe in the tribulation.
I believe, however, what IS of satan is what this argument amongst God's people has become. Your blatant judgment of your fellow Christian, insisting that they do not respect the whole of Christianity and will have to answer for getting such a small thing as a sequence of events wrong, is not something our God taught that we should do.
How do I know this?
Romans 14:1 - Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
This is a disputable matter. Both sides of the argument have valid points.
Now, stop judging, stop insulting, stop belittling, stop treating yourself as some final authority on any matter, because you're not. God is. And, if you were more knowledgeable on the Word instead of paying attention to such trivial things as a sequence of events, you would know that the Bible says that God looks lower on those who judge and discourage their fellow Christians, rather than those who misinterpret something that will be insignificant (NOT A SIN, BY THE WAY) in the end.
I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss these things. I think it's great that we have this place to learn and discuss, but seriously, you're obviously not looking on your brethren with love and respect. It's obscenely obvious that you're more worried about being right than encouraging others. Correct that.
Also, I apologize for the sarcasm and whatnot before, even that was out-of-line. I should've said this first, but the devil was in this from the beginning. We all played into his trap. Let's either agree to disagree on non-essentials, or learn to respect each others' views.
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The tribulation and trials that we go through as believers is to benefit us to help us grow in character and in our relationship with the Father and His Son (1Pt 1:6,7; 4:12,13). Even when we are chastised and it is grevious, it is for our benefit to yield a peacable fruit of righteousness (Heb 12:11). God's plan is to form Christ in us (Gal 4:19) and we go through these things in the plan of God to try our faith (1Pt 1:7, Ps 18:30, Ps 12:16) and to be a partaker of the glory that is going to be revealed in us (Rom 8:18). These trials and tribulations that we face as believers have nothing to do with the wrath of God because we are not children of wrath (Eph 2:3). The great tribulation is the wrath of God that will be poured out on the earth unto the children of disobedience (Eph 5:6, Col 3:6) that are in the world, which the believer is not apart of (John 15:19). This will be a terrible day upon the earth and it is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7) that the Jews, who have rebelled for all these years will be have to witness on the earth but will be delivered.
There is a dispensation of time that God has set aside that is the church age. It started with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and continues until Christ comes back for his bride, the church, to deliver them from (GK ek - out of) the hour of temptation that comes upon the earth. The church will be with the bridegroom, made up of Jews and Gentiles, witnessing this event from heaven who have already been delivered. Is Jesus Christ going to subject His own bride to the wrath of His Father or is He going to present to Himself a glorious church, his bride, without spot or wrinkle and deliver them from the wrath to come (Eph 5:27, 1Thes 1:10, 2:16, Rev 6:17)? Are not these the words that we are to comfort one another with in (1Thes 4:18)? How can any believer, as a member of God's body and bride of Christ, be comforted with words that say they will have to go through and be subject to the terrible and great day of tribulation and a time of trouble that has never been on the earth (Dan 12:1)?
The righteous and the wicked shall be judged (Eccl 3:17), but shall the righteous be judged with the wicked (Gen 18:25)? The rain that fails on the just and the unjust is not the wrath of God (Mt 5:45). Lot, a just man, was not destroyed with the wicked and Noah, a righteous man, was not destroyed by the flood. The believer may taste the beginning of sorrows (Mt 24:8) but they will be snatched away as a thief in the night to some, while others will be watching (1Thes 5:2,4, Mt 24:43,44, Luke 12:39,40, 2Pt 3:10, Rev 3:3). It will happen in the twinkling of an eye (11/100th of a second according to Bell Lab) and we will meet the Lord in the air and evermore be with the Lord (1Cor 15:52,).
1Thes 4:11-18 'And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words'.
There is a dispensation of time that God has set aside that is the church age. It started with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and continues until Christ comes back for his bride, the church, to deliver them from (GK ek - out of) the hour of temptation that comes upon the earth. The church will be with the bridegroom, made up of Jews and Gentiles, witnessing this event from heaven who have already been delivered. Is Jesus Christ going to subject His own bride to the wrath of His Father or is He going to present to Himself a glorious church, his bride, without spot or wrinkle and deliver them from the wrath to come (Eph 5:27, 1Thes 1:10, 2:16, Rev 6:17)? Are not these the words that we are to comfort one another with in (1Thes 4:18)? How can any believer, as a member of God's body and bride of Christ, be comforted with words that say they will have to go through and be subject to the terrible and great day of tribulation and a time of trouble that has never been on the earth (Dan 12:1)?
The righteous and the wicked shall be judged (Eccl 3:17), but shall the righteous be judged with the wicked (Gen 18:25)? The rain that fails on the just and the unjust is not the wrath of God (Mt 5:45). Lot, a just man, was not destroyed with the wicked and Noah, a righteous man, was not destroyed by the flood. The believer may taste the beginning of sorrows (Mt 24:8) but they will be snatched away as a thief in the night to some, while others will be watching (1Thes 5:2,4, Mt 24:43,44, Luke 12:39,40, 2Pt 3:10, Rev 3:3). It will happen in the twinkling of an eye (11/100th of a second according to Bell Lab) and we will meet the Lord in the air and evermore be with the Lord (1Cor 15:52,).
1Thes 4:11-18 'And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words'.
Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Amos 3:3
The tribulation is not intended for the nonbelievers because it is the wrath of Satan (Rev. 12:12) We see it is the believers being persecuted (two witnesses and saints) because it is those who will not take the mark or worship the beast that will be killed.
The tribulation is not intended for the nonbelievers because it is the wrath of Satan (Rev. 12:12) We see it is the believers being persecuted (two witnesses and saints) because it is those who will not take the mark or worship the beast that will be killed.
When Christ came the first time … He was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). We as believers know why Christ came the first time and the scriptures are clear on that. Is not the second time when He comes dependent upon the first? We could not have a second coming without the first having taken place. The second coming would mean nothing to us if He had not come the first time. The second time is very central to our salvation. The second coming confirms the authority of the first and is greater than the first, just as the new covenant is greater than the old because there is no more remembrance of sins (Heb 8:7-13, 10:1-3). If we know all about the first coming of Christ, which is glorious, should we not also know everything about the second coming which is more glorious (1Jn 3:2,3, 2Cor 3:7-18)? Why do you and others think otherwise and consider His second coming as non-essential? The second coming of Christ is what every believer is looking unto, the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2).
We are to be looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life (Jude 21). Jesus Christ was our precious Savior the first time He came and took our sins away, shall He not come back in the same manner that He ascended, only this time to deliver us from this body of sin and death (Acts 1:11, 2Cor 1:10) and take us home to a continuing city not made with the hands of men but of God (Heb 13:14)? Shall the finisher of our salvation be lesser in His goodness and greatness towards us than the author of our salvation when we first believed? Have we not grown in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18) and know more of who He is now then we did when we first received Him by grace through faith in His cross (Eph 2:8,9)? Please read (Heb 9) for your own edification.
Rev 22:17-21 'And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all'. Amen
C
Yea, we can absolutely agree to disagree. This isn't about faith, it's about a dispute between two beliefs of the same system. It doesn't matter if you believe in a post- or pre-tribulation rapture of the church. It doesn't matter if you preach either one of them. Honestly, I don't think it would matter if you didn't even believed in either one of them (the tribulation or the rapture).
The important thing is knowing who Jesus is and knowing He died for your sins.
Too many people in this forum seem to forget that. Come together, guys! Let go of the animosity amongst yourselves; love one another as you discuss these things! And I don't mean feel sorry for one another, or pity each other, I mean treat each participant as they're your brother and sister in Christ, because they're are, regardless of what side of this debate they're on!
The important thing is knowing who Jesus is and knowing He died for your sins.
Too many people in this forum seem to forget that. Come together, guys! Let go of the animosity amongst yourselves; love one another as you discuss these things! And I don't mean feel sorry for one another, or pity each other, I mean treat each participant as they're your brother and sister in Christ, because they're are, regardless of what side of this debate they're on!
You are wrong I never siad pretribbers do not respect chaistianity. What I said is any retribber that would enter this thread and turn it into a debate thread when it was intended to be a learning thread for post trib believers or those saweying toward the post trib belief. Did not respect their borthers and sisters in Christ that are on this site trying to learn. You as well as Thaddaeus, BLC and others ahave proven that you do not have any respect for us, who would have been edified by a thread such as this. That is not ''judgment'' it is an observation that anyopne can see for themselves.
The devuil didnlt enter this thread until the pretribbers entered it turning what should have been a teaching tool to those that wanted to learn what post tribbers believed into another debate thread. That was blatant disrespect fior the O.P. and all others who may of wanted to participate.
P.S. I would never disresprect you or anyone else the way you and your pretrib friends have disrespected us in this thread.
P.S. I would never disresprect you or anyone else the way you and your pretrib friends have disrespected us in this thread.
To take you on (just you) and try to correct you from the error of your way of thinking about this and everything that has to do with the grace of God, would be an exercise in vanity because you have no place for it in your mind, your heart or in the deep resources of your joints, bones and marrow ( Heb 4:12). I hope that God offends you so deeply in your spirit that you have no rest until you come to the knowledge of the truth. I hope that everything that you have understood about the nature of God is shaken until nothing is left but that which is eternal. Then and only then will you be in a place of humility to receive the grace of God and start again with that which is able to build you up in the love of God and the most holy faith.
This coming from a die hard pretribbers that refuses correction even though the scripture is clear on the subject. God has disturbed me, He has told me to take a stand, and teach the truth of the post trib 2nd coming of Christ to those that have been deceived. I understand many will recoil , and lash out because the truth makes them uncomfortable, but I bless you any way , and pray for you that your eyes will one day be opened.
God Bless you brother.
God Bless you brother.
R
Throughout history our God has punished man for his continual rejection of Him. These punishments have been severe in nature even to the destroying of the whole earth except for Noah, his family and the animals on the ark with them. In every judgment of God on man there has been a reminant saved. Is it not possible that God will judge Israel, His chosen people, during the tribulation and the Great Tribulation in order to bring them to the poiint of accepting Jesus Christ as their messiah! That God's Church will be taken out prior to this judgment is logical, regardless of your beliefs, your misconceptions of what the Bible says, and your refusal to recognize that to do otherwise is to break His promise to the Church to save them from the wrath to come. Don't let pride in your church and it's doctrines blind you eyes to the truth. Your "proofs" are nothing more that selective Biblical interpretation and deliberate refusal to see the truth because it causes you arguments to fall flat. You must take the "whole" Word of God, not selective words. It all agrees with itself. If it tends to contridict itself, then I must know that I am improperly interpreting it.
C
Sorry you feel that way man. This is a discussion board you know, and you are not a moderator, so you can't pick and choose who you want to respond, and you also can't decide who gets a say and who doesn't. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if everyone had to agree with you, unless it was something vital. This, however, is not vital.
The owner and moderators of this site do not let people preach or deliver sermons in the chat for that very reason. Not everyone is going to agree. There are people from lots of different denominations represented here, and every single one of them believe a different thing, but they all have faith in the Lord and know the way to get to Him.
This is not a preaching forum. This is a question and answer forum. Nobody asked a question; you took it upon yourself to preach something and claim authority over it. We gave our opinions on the matter, and of course you were offended because you think you're an authority figure on the matter. You're not. Let me repeat that. You are not an authority over anyone on this forum, on any matter.
"Bible Discussion Forum - Ask (or answer) Bible questions here.", Not "Preaching Forum - Preached (and refuse to allow dissent on) your views on the Bible here."
The owner and moderators of this site do not let people preach or deliver sermons in the chat for that very reason. Not everyone is going to agree. There are people from lots of different denominations represented here, and every single one of them believe a different thing, but they all have faith in the Lord and know the way to get to Him.
This is not a preaching forum. This is a question and answer forum. Nobody asked a question; you took it upon yourself to preach something and claim authority over it. We gave our opinions on the matter, and of course you were offended because you think you're an authority figure on the matter. You're not. Let me repeat that. You are not an authority over anyone on this forum, on any matter.
"Bible Discussion Forum - Ask (or answer) Bible questions here.", Not "Preaching Forum - Preached (and refuse to allow dissent on) your views on the Bible here."
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I am not sure where you stand you brought up Noah were the remnant was kept safe here on this earth, then you claim that ithe church may be removed from the earth (as if this is the only way to keep them safe), then you take about God's wrath (which is tnot the tribulation at all) and then you seem to start scolding people for being blind and believing in their churches doctrine rather than scripture. So I am not sure where you stand because you seem to say you believe in pretrib, but it is the opretribers who refuse the truth believe church doctrine over scripture. You brought up Noah but He wasn;t removed from the earth. Remember Israel in Egypt they were protected from the plagues without being removed from the earth, and Jesus in John 17:15 tells the Father that He doesn;t want the Chrurch removed from the earth but simply kept from the evil.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So can you clerify your position. Are you pretrib or sdo you think pretribbers need to astart believing scripture over doctrine?
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So can you clerify your position. Are you pretrib or sdo you think pretribbers need to astart believing scripture over doctrine?
R
I'm putting you on my prayer list. You seem to be full of anger and wish to argue with everyone. Have you read the verse in James 3:16 that says, "For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work." I really don't care if you believe in the pre, mid, post or no trib. What I'm concerned about is your attitude toward those who don't share your exact belief. Each individual should study their Bible and come to the knowledge of the truth. The key is that "each person" is responsible for their own understanding. God's Word can be read by anyone who is seeking salvation and God's Holy Spirit will give them what they need. Please refrain from this angry, strife filled discussion and move to where God is and can be praised.