"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[Bryancampbell]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It was said that back in the early church that women might have been emotionally unstable, especially in the church who misused gifts within the community, which Paul wrote to. It even said that the reason could be because, as a ever mood changing, emotional [embraced in the flesh] leader might speak out of anger, jealousy, physical complications, etc.

This might need to be applied to some out there who aren't called to be teachers and leaders, who condemn nature by anger instead of truth.

 

[jb]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Spot the male chauvinists!

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

So the consensus interpretation so far is that this is saying women can't ask questions in church, and that this is still for today?

I believe no one should cause disruption in the church while services are being given. I used to take the stance that women should remain silent in the church -- that they shouldn't even be allowed to teach. My position changed as soon as I became aware of the historical-cultural context surrounding this particular passage -- plus a handful of theology classes. Then again, maybe my position is wrong. Thank God we are not judged for bad theology that doesn't pertain to soteriology.


Incidentally, I am certain I had a post a while back regarding 'Complementarianism' and 'Egalitarianism.' The reason I mentioned Luke 19:40 -- there has been a 5% decline in Protestant church attendance per decade, since the 1950's. If men are silent, I believe God will use women to cry out. Also, we are losing male pastors faster than we can usher the new ones in.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Some scholars believe there were a few texts like this added to some of the Pauline Letters?!
I don't know if that's true or not?
But it sure seems to be contradictory, to some other things Paul said concerning men and women.
Mainly stating that they were equals in the Kingdom of God!
Though I would not have believed this years ago, I tend to today.
So I do not believe there is anything here that can cease;
the question with me is did Paul write it?
Remember also, many scholars believe that ! Corin.
could be 2 to 4 of Paul's letters combined?
Is this out of line to your thread?

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Some scholars believe there were a few texts like this added to some of the Pauline Letters?!
I don't know if that's true or not?
But it sure seems to be contradictory, to some other things Paul said concerning men and women.
Mainly stating that they were equals in the Kingdom of God!
Though I would not have believed this years ago, I tend to today.
So I do not believe there is anything here that can cease;
the question with me is did Paul write it?
Remember also, many scholars believe that ! Corin.
could be 2 to 4 of Paul's letters combined?
Is this out of line to your thread?

Yes I'll be confining you to your bottle.



Jk you're ok.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It is amazing how this one command is disobeyed due to secular study and opinion. If this method was used on other commands of God would that make them go away? Thou shalt not kill was written before guns. Not looking on a woman to lust was written before photographes. You could take apart every commandment with the culture exuse.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It is amazing how this one command is disobeyed due to secular study and opinion. If this method was used on other commands of God would that make them go away? Thou shalt not kill was written before guns. Not looking on a woman to lust was written before photographes. You could take apart every commandment with the culture exuse.

How do you explain Romans 16:1-4? That is not a retort, by the way. What are your thoughts on the passage?

 

[RoboOp]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

People are extremely biased by their own culture/society when it comes to this passage.

It's really pretty simple.

The context in the chapter is speaking in the church, as in, from the "pulpit", or standing up and addressing the church. That context is clear, simply read through the chapter, without biases. "Speak" and "be silent" are in reference to public speaking in the church.

Paul gives guidelines in this chapter for "speaking" in the church. His last guideline, or rule rather, is that women are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection.

Is that really that hard to accept?

Consider this: how many times this past year did you "speak" in the church? Me: zero.

My point: even most men rarely, if ever, speak in the church. So why is it so hard to accept that the few speaking spots in the church service should be given to men?

Naturally the pastors/leaders will speak (and hopefully you believe the pastors/leaders should be men), and any other speaking spots can be given to aspiring men who need to exercise this leadership skill of speaking in the church.

And it seems to me that most of the churches and pastors who are soft on this, inevitably do let women not just "speak" but actually teach/preach/etc. and justify it by saying she's not teaching, when actually she is.

And, really, whether people acknowledge it or not, 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2:11-13 are indeed parallel passages. Read 1 Tim 2:11-13:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

It's saying the same thing.

And it even gives creation as the basis for women being in submission in the church in this way (not culture or any special local circumstance).

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

People are extremely biased by their own culture/society when it comes to this passage.

It's really pretty simple.

The context in the chapter is speaking in the church, as in, from the "pulpit", or standing up and addressing the church. That context is clear, simply read through it without biases. "Speak" and "be silent" are in reference to public speaking in the church.

Paul gives guidelines in this chapter for "speaking" in the church. His last guideline, or rule rather, is that women are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection.

Is that really that hard to accept?

Consider this: how many times this past year did you "speak" in the church? Me: zero.

My point: even most men rarely, if ever, speak in the church. So why is it so hard to accept that the few speaking spots in the church service should be given to men?

Naturally the pastors/leaders will speak (and hopefully you believe the pastors/leaders should be men), and any other speaking spots can be given to aspiring men who need to exercise this leadership skill of speaking in the church.

And it seems to me that most of the people who are soft on this, inevitably do let women not just "speak" but actually teach/preach/etc. and justify it by saying she's not teaching, when actually she is.

And, really, whether people acknowledge it or not, 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2:11-13 are indeed parallel passages. Read 1 Tim 2:11-13:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

It's saying the same thing.

And it even gives creation as the basis for women being in submission in the church in this way (not culture or any special situation in a certain place).

I agree the scriptures you mentioned are paralleled, but so are Romans 16:1-7, Galatians 3:28, Matthew 28:16-20, and, lastly, Luke 19:40. Furthermore, in Genesis 3:16, God was not giving a mandate that men would rule over their wives; rather, He [God] was merely stating what would occur, due to 'The Fall" of humanity.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It was said that back in the early church that women might have been emotionally unstable, especially in the church who misused gifts within the community, which Paul wrote to. It even said that the reason could be because, as a ever mood changing, emotional [embraced in the flesh] leader might speak out of anger, jealousy, physical complications, etc.

This might need to be applied to some out there who aren't called to be teachers and leaders, who condemn nature by anger instead of truth.

Oops wrong thread

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Oops wrong thread

And in comes the comic relief.

Just kidding . . .

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Does 1Corin. ch. 11 speak about both men and women praying and prophesying in the church fellowship?

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

How do you explain Romans 16:1-4? That is not a retort, by the way. What are your thoughts on the passage?

The passage does not say to let them speak or teach or have authority. It does not say what her "business" is. Since she was traveling it could simply be saying help her with her traveling needs.

 

[RoboOp]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

How do you explain Romans 16:1-4? That is not a retort, by the way. What are your thoughts on the passage?

Clearly she was a missionary and was honored and supported as such. There is so much ministry to be done outside of pulpit ministry and leading the church, and both men and women are very needed for that.

Actually a number of women are fondly mentioned in that Romans 16 chapter. Women were apparently very active in ministry and missions work. That doesn't mean that they were active in the pulpit or in leadership over churches -- other passages clearly tell us otherwise.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

The passage does not say to let them speak or teach or have authority. It does not say what her "business" is. Since she was traveling it could simply be saying help her with her traveling needs.

Maybe so. Yet I request you to take a brief look at Romans 16:7 (New International Version, 2011) also: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding amongthe apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."


Junia is regarded by most modern day theologians to be female; yet, notice Paul refers to her as an apostle. So how can this be if women are to be silent?

 

[marrion]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

These are new testament instructions so i believe it is still for our day.The problem is that most people dont understand the FULL history concerning why women were forbidden from teaching and having authority in the church setting.we also must remember that the church is the spiritual body of Christ NOT a building where people choose to gather.We all know that it was eve who was first deceived into believing the lie of the serpent but what it was that eve actually did(wether it be eating an apple or some other form of disobedience)most christians have not been able to put a finger on it.Before Adam ever had a carnal knowledge of Eve, the serpent had that knowledge ahead of him. And that one born of it was CAIN. “Cain was of (born of, begotten of) that “Wicked One”, according to I John 3:12.
Notice what God said to the SERPENT in the garden. Genesis 3:15, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.” If we give credit to the Word that the woman did have a seed, then the serpent must have surely had a SEED also. If the SEED of the woman was a MAN-CHILD apart from the man, then the SEED of the serpent will have to be in the same pattern, and that is another male must be born apart from human male instrumentality.Also take note that after this affair , God did not curse Eve by punishing her with more apples to eat, but said, “Unto the woman He said, I will multiply thy sorrow and thy CONCEPTION; in sorrow thou shalt BRING FORTH CHILDREN, and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee..” (Gen. 3:16). This tremendous act has brought forth the advent for man’s sexual reproduction, which was never God’s original plan, because God just speaks His children into existence and they come forth out of the dust, just like the way He created the first man, Adam.When this illicit act happened between Eve and the serpent, God cursed the serpent. He changed every bone in the serpent’s body so that he had to crawl like a snake. “And the Lord God said unto the SERPENT, because thou hast done this, thou art CURSED above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy BELLY shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life”.
Immediately after EATING the FRUIT (remember that we are the FRUITS of our mother and father), they quickly knew that they were NAKED. And they hid themselves from God and made aprons of fig leaves to cover their NAKEDNESS (Gen. 3:7-8).
Eves sin was not only disbeleif but her actions caused women from that point on to lose their equality of authority with man.What took place in the garden of eden is the real reason that women are not permitted to have any authority or to teach in the church as paul instructs in the new testament.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

That's a pretty good spin on how you see it, but is Jesus not destroy all the curses of the garden?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Clearly she was a missionary and was honored and supported as such. There is so much ministry to be done outside of pulpit ministry and leading the church, and both men and women are very needed for that.

Actually a number of women are fondly mentioned in that Romans 16 chapter. Women were apparently very active in ministry and missions work. That doesn't mean that they were active in the pulpit or in leadership over churches -- other passages clearly tell us otherwise.

And you might be correct. I will be the first to admit I do not possess a perfect theology. Also, as you mentioned, Romans speaks fondly of women, to include, Junia; a female apostle. While I do not doubt women were and are permitted to perform missionary work, I do not see the difference between preaching the Word of God as a missionary and preaching the Word of God from the pulpit. Either way you slice it, these women would have had to of preached before men.

 

[marrion]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Prophetexcalibur,i am not putting a spin on anything.Jesus did destroy the curses of the garden but it is a process.The earth was baptized in water in the days of Noah. It was then sanctified when the blood of Jesus Christ was shed on Calvary's hill. It will be baptized with the Holy Fire of God during the Battle of Armageddon, before God can finally dwell on it during the Millennium.until then my friend i think it best that we stay with ALL the new testament instructions on righteousness.its tough because a lot of christian men will disagree with the role of women because they dont want to offend women in the modern day church system.They argue and debate scripture rather than obeying it regardless of the cost.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Maybe so. Yet I request you to take a brief look at Romans 16:7 (New International Version, 2011) also: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding amongthe apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."


Junia is regarded by most modern day theologians to be female; yet, notice Paul refers to her as an apostle. So how can this be if women are to be silent?

The verse does not say the women are apostles; it says they are outstanding among the apostles. You can be considered outstanding by your pastor and not be one. You are reading a thought into the text.