"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

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homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#141
Oct 24, 2012
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#141
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
Do you believe the verses below still apply today?
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Depends on carnality of those that claim belief. For I now in the Spirit of God there is no male, female, Jew or Greek, wea re all one in God.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So coming from a carnal mindset, yes, Spiritual God's Spirit no
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#142
Oct 24, 2012
15,470
216
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#142
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

from a carnal standpoint yes, not from a Spiritual God's no for we are one in God through Christ
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#143
Sep 8, 2012
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#143
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Ariel82 said:
you are accusing people of "mix and match prophecies to suit your dogma " (Yea! He's totally evil)

but you prefer to call this judgement and only label those who post videos as false accusers. (Yea....how can he say such things in proper manifest??????)

its really kind of off topic. about women speaking/ teaching in church ( sorry Stilly) but you did ask.(Yea, it's totally off topic.....see the O.P. - {top o' page}:cool:)

<note: neither agree or disagree, just a statement/ summary of the conversation>
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What???? You don't agree or disagree????? - (What was all of this then?).............Woman!
- - - (Just kidding Ariel assault):eek:;):p:eek:
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#144
#144
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#145
Sep 8, 2012
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#145
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
You're accusing me of interpreting based on dogma, and preconceived notions..


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159816


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-6.html#post1159804

Actually those were never my dogmatic or preconceived notions.
I used to believe similar to you.
I think a less accusatorial tone would simple be to say my interpretation is wrong, and then refrain from saying the interpretation is due to some less than good motives.

Oh and on a side note.
Someone personally CC mailed me yesterday saying everyone on the forums was just SUPER nice to me because I'm an admin. He suggested I make another name and post under that, then people would really give me tons of pushback.

Bwahahaha...

He's obviously never observed you and I discussing things.
You give tons of pushback.
AND...You're still here..proving you can disagree with a admin/mod and still exist...Well I mean unless one goes teaching extreme heresy or promoting sin. But you don't do that.
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Yea, show them our posts.
Iron sharpens iron.
We find a way to disagree agreeably,........for that I love you always!

Let It Be Known: The Mod's of This Site Do NOT censor actual Bible discussion.
- - Never have, never will. - (Has something to do with actual Bible discussion) - if that is too much to ask.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#146
#146
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It's strange how some people want to keep some rules and not others, eh
?Does "do not wear mixed fabrics" and "stone the witches" still apply? ;)

as for the specific issue, are we certain he meant for this to be so in ALL churches all over the world?
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#147
#147
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

wwjd_kilden said:
It's strange how some people want to keep some rules and not others, eh
?Does "do not wear mixed fabrics" and "stone the witches" still apply? ;)

as for the specific issue, are we certain he meant for this to be so in ALL churches all over the world?
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I know I am making a cliché out of this, but that is why 'Historical-cultural' context is of such importance, because without it, our understanding of God's Word becomes limited -- not even taking into consideration the semantic range of words being used within any given text. Thanks for the post.:) I would have given you two thumbs up if possible.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#148
Feb 12, 2009
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#148
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

wwjd_kilden said:
It's strange how some people want to keep some rules and not others, eh
?Does "do not wear mixed fabrics" and "stone the witches" still apply? ;)

as for the specific issue, are we certain he meant for this to be so in ALL churches all over the world?
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Your a woman..so be quiet wwjd_Kitten :)

(only kidding)
 
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NiceneCreed

Guest
#149
#149
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

phil36 said:
Your a woman..so be quiet wwjd_Kitten :)

(only kidding)
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I know, right? There should have been a notice or subheading that stated this post was for men only. Who cares what women have to say about God's Word, right? "Better to burn the law than teach it to a woman."

I am only kidding, of course.;)

Please don't beat me up -- all you ladies reading this post.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#150
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#150
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:
I know, right? There should have been a notice or subheading that stated this post was for men only. Who cares what women have to say about God's Word, right? "Better to burn the law than teach it to a woman."

I am only kidding, of course.;)

Please don't beat me up -- all you ladies reading this post.
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You have asked for it now. Personally I think their gonna beat you up bad lol :)
 
B

brmicke

Senior Member
#151
Sep 6, 2012
276
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#151
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
In your opinion, is the directive for women to remain silent in the churches still for today as seen in the verses below?
Did it cease?
Was it for a certain time and place, and is no longer applicable for today?

If you're a cessationist on this issue, why?
If you're a continuist on this issue, why?

Please stay on topic.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
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Ok I'll bite.
Lets look at the verses you posted.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

First of all Paul is speaking to wives because He speaks of submission and husbands. So we need to put the word "wives" in the verse where women are just to be clear about who is being spoken of in these verses.

Next - By implication these wives are not in submission to their husbands. They had previously been, and are still, disagreeing with their husbands.

Now the next portion of the verse speaks of "learning". So these argumentative wives were in disagreement with their husbands over "learning".

Well, in church we generally speak of the Bible so it seems to make sense that this argumentative wife was in disagreement with Her husband over a point of doctrine. The wife had therefore taken a point of doctrinal disagreement with Her husband and brought it before the congregation.

Now to apply this to the allegorical nature of marriage as it relates to Jesus and the church. Jesus being the husband and the church (or all Christians) being the bride. If the Church/bride or wife argues with Jesus regarding His doctrines or teachings should this be allowed in a public church setting?

Now it is certain that Paul is not telling women to be quiet altogether because of examples such as Deborah and other women who prophesied, and also because just a few verses preceding 1 Cor 14:34-35 Paul says all people can prophesy or present the word, 1 Cor 14:31.

So within 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 35 we can scripturally conclude that Paul's admonition to be "silent in church" is directed towards wives who are arguing with their husbands over a point of "learning" or doctrine. It can therefore be understood that the wife had brought this matter before Her Husband previously but the answer He gave Her, with regard to this point of learning, had not been what she wanted it to be.

So in conclusion then - If a wife is arguing with Her husband over a point of learning or doctrine it is to be kept private and not brought into the church and if it is "it should be considered shameful".

Respectfully - Brian
 
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NiceneCreed

Guest
#152
#152
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

phil36 said:
You have asked for it now. Personally I think their gonna beat you up bad lol :)
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I think you are right, but I can't say I don't have it coming.;)
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#153
Sep 8, 2012
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#153
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

"and a child shall lead them"
That child is Jesus.
And there is a difference between judging and accusing.
An accusation is based on something like hearsay, such as video, (or outward appearance).
Need I show you where it is prophesied that the Messiah would not do that?
- So righteous judgement is past all the videos. - (Why?) - Because no one knows their hearts.
It is presumptuous to do so. It is accusatory.
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#154
May 29, 2013
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#154
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I don't see how this can be an issue of cessationism. The instructions Paul gives are apparently for all churches, 'as in all the churches of the saints.' The question is whether he is addressing a specific issue in regard to the silence or if he is saying there should be absolute silence. Some people interpret the passage as referring to a problem related to chit chat or yelling questions to husbands across the assembly (though the evidence for genders sitting apart, even in the synagogue during this time period, I've read, based on the archeology, isn't there. They've found evidence of mixed gender seating arrangements in the synagogue.)

Is there any reason not to see an absolute silence view? Paul says a few chapters earlier that any woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonors her head. Women should cover their head because of the angels. Is it saying a woman must always cover her head? If you think it means long hair, that makes sense. If you think it means veils, that doesn't make much sense. If women had to cover their heads all the time, it would be hard to bathe or comb their hair. They might have to walk around with stinky knotted heads of hair on their head. Some interpreters think the references to angels refers to a belief that angels were present in church gatherings.

If the passage is telling women to cover their heads while prophesying in a church gathering, then there is reason to think women should be allowed to prophesy in church. Paul does right, "For ye may all prophesy...." One interpretation is that there may have been a problem with the women interrogating the men (or their husbands) during the 'weigh carefully what was said' time when the prophecies were judged/weighed, and that women were not to ask the men prophesying (or their husbands) Socratic dialogue type questions. If they had questions, they were to ask them at home.

There is some evidence that a girl spoke at a prayer meeting. Rhoda told of Peter's release. Many churches also allow women to participate in congregational singing.

The issue in regard to women speaking at Corinth or women covering their heads is not cessationism. If one interprets the passage on head coverings and translates the phrase as 'we have no such custom' and interprets it to mean head-covering was peculiar to Corinth, the issue is not cessationism, but an issue of the words being applicable to a particular context. That would be the same type of situation for certain interpretations of women's silence in I Corinthians 14.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#155
#155
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Where does Scripture say a woman cannot be a pastor ?

I know, I know, God's Word talks about a deacon being the pastor of one wife in 1 Tim. 3 , but does that mean that a woman cannot be a pastor ?
1 Tim.
8
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In the same way, deacons[SUP]b[/SUP] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11In the same way, the women[SUP]c[/SUP] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
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What about comparing this word 'deacon' to this word 'deacon' in Romans 16, as Paul calles Phoebe a 'deacon,' or, 'servant,' in some bible translations. And, I know, the more true word, according to the Greek is 'servant,' and a servant is not a pastor, but........ Timothy, too, refers to a pastor as a deacon. Certainly, something to think about in the ole cranium :)
The Lord leads :)

Romans 16
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
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Also, brickey repeated what I said, more or less, the Lord leads, he said that a 'woman' in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is of her husband. This is right, the context speaks for itself, the woman = wife, in this case . And, I say, that, and, also in 1 Timothy 2 that a woman is a general layperson woman, not necessarily a 'wife' of a husband, could be a single woman, too, of course. But, then, the point was made that a woman is NOT a pastor, and, of course, a woman in the church is to be quiet and listen to the pastor's authority. A woman who is a pastor would, of course, be speaking to the whole of the church.
 
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Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#156
Aug 28, 2012
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#156
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
So the consensus interpretation so far is that this is saying women can't ask questions in church, and that this is still for today?
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Depends on the format of your church service. We don't have a regular preacher at our church. So unless some of the speakers who come in, or some of the member who speak, open it up for discussion (interactive sermon, in which I really enjoy) in which I think is ok and helpful. If you have a speaker who doesn't open it up for discussion, then I think it would be rude for anyone to interrupt (unless the speaker was teaching something that was out right heresy, in which I would speak out or leave). Interruptions over secondary Christian issues are not necessary and are something you can talk about after the message.

Parking lot socializing is where church really begins ;)...
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#157
Aug 28, 2012
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#157
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:
And you might be correct. I will be the first to admit I do not possess a perfect theology. Also, as you mentioned, Romans speaks fondly of women, to include, Junia; a female apostle. While I do not doubt women were and are permitted to perform missionary work, I do not see the difference between preaching the Word of God as a missionary and preaching the Word of God from the pulpit. Either way you slice it, these women would have had to of preached before men.
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Actually I don't see having an "ordained" pastor biblical for being the only one able to stand in the pulpit to preach. When ever pastor "shepherd" is used in the singular in the NT it always refers to Christ. When used in the plural, it's elders. A top down authoritative hierarchy structure I don't believe is biblical, save having a head of the elders. That being said, do I have a problem with head pastors? No, not really, but I don't put a greater emphasis or importance of their godliness or position over a regular member of the church, but rather just see them as a head elder (one in charge but held accountable by all).
 
jonathanbchristian

jonathanbchristian

Banned
#158
Feb 16, 2011
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#158
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Our spirits have no gender or nationality but our body and soul still do. Thus gender commandments for body and soul and not the spirit.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#159
Sep 8, 2012
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#159
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

You can argue on.
But Paul was clear.
Women are coequal to men as far as the Spirit of God is concerned.
To say otherwise is to say an unmarried woman is lesser than an unmarried man.
Marriage is a holy consecration, just like the other two: church and government. (Someone must be the head - Woman made for Man; YES - in marriage!)
But many Godly men and many Godly women were never married.
- I think it strange that this slight bit of early church housekeeping has been inflamed into a misogynist doctrine.
- - Yes....I think that quite strange indeed.
 
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Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#160
Aug 28, 2012
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#160
Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
If that was the point he was trying to make he wouldn't have distinguished between men and women.
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Unless it was the women causing the problem.
 
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