"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

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RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Unless it was the women causing the problem.
Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must be silent"

And my real question is this, for the people who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:

Why would he (Paul) even go on to give this basis:

"For it was Adam who was created first, and then Eve."

(in 1 Tim 2 about a woman learning in silence with entire submission, and not teaching or having authority over a man)

Isn't it clear that Paul is indeed being very gender-specific, not on the basis of what one gender happens to be doing in a specific situation, but rather on the basis of the distinction between genders at CREATION? If it's not universally gender-specific, why in the world would Paul say because Adam was created first??

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.
 
Last edited:
Feb 7, 2013
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Peace be with you, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST stop being hostile woman! Learn to posses a gentle and quiet spirit like your mother Sarah who address her husband as 'Lord'(1Peter3;3-6). Clearly the Tread Scriptures by the Administrator, helps and talks to women like you, to start having a change from that carnal nature and also of hostility, which will only further make one fail to recognize and listen to the voice of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
It is not by accident that something good is posted here in this forum and it may come from the LORD Himself. We men as servants of the LORD ourselves, have also our corrections and chastisements from GOD the FATHER directly, in accordance to HIS Holy Scriptures, punctually from time to time. As truly we are also weak, not perfected yet and are not specifically favored also. we further being gloomy and sad, we discuss these 'short comings' with our 'Advocate CHRIST in Heaven beside the FATHER to help us'.
But in ministering to others, the LORD the HOLY SPIRIT, who is the one, truly doing them to encourage, build and edify the church, who is also the 'Sword that cuts'.
Even when GOD used these vessels to correct or speak to others as you have mentioned, they never claimed worthiness themselves that they are being used to minister unto others because they were weak too.
Did GOD choose everyone to speak? HE also said; "Teachers will be greatly judged."
We are sure, we can recognize for an example, 'a women like Deborah' speaking to us, proof that the LORD has sent her and the LORD is speaking through a women like her today.
If one just throws the Holy Scripture back to us in hostility because of offence, how can we justify that as just to recognize. Sadly, we only recognize an immature, spiritually unlearned and rebelling spirit like jezebel?
Prophesies and encourage other women out there like you, to abide in the Word of CHRIST and the instructions of the Apostles in the New Covenant. They surely need deliverance from deceptions of this world and carnality. Ask us the church to join prayers with you related to this very important matters for women. Do you sense the HOLY SPIRIT grieving for them as well, who are perishing though yet living? (perishing spiritually and living carnally)
'GOD's true lambs and sheeps will only hear the voice of LORD JESUS CHRIST to follow and not strangers, who are in disguise.'
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, forgive you and bless you with a gentle and quiet spirit, so that you will be a true guide to other women, when behaved Holy Scripturally.
We acknowledge, you have the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT but you lack in submission and obedient to the Word of GOD.
The LORD who loves you is the one who have spoken these things, to encourage and not to be discourage you.
No one must or can judge you again, for what the LORD JESUS CHRIST already justified.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Roboop, I saw a special on PBS(Public Broadcasting System) about Muslims.
They were marching around the holy mosque in Mecca.
Do you know all of the men were dressed in white?
While all of the women were dressed in black(with faces covered)?
Just a bunch of penguins marching around the cube of the holy mosque.
All women were in black(faces covered), all men were in white(faces exposed).
Now, it is common knowledge that wives were considered 'chattle', or property in the mideast.
They still are today.
There is a most certain cultural bias that must be read into the scriptures.
I mean, consider what the apostles said concerning accepting gentiles. (The debate was whether they should be circumcised).
Eventually four tenants were subscribed to the gentiles as having to follow by the apostles in Jerusalem.
One was not to eat meat offered to idols. - - -Now, Paul clearly said that was O.K. if it did not offend the one eating it.
You must judge these standards against the cultural norms of the day.
- - - So Eve was made after Adam? Eve was made for Adam? Who was Adam made for?
Adam and Eve were married. Not all men or women are married.
Not all men and women were meant to be married - "and some are eunuchs from birth. And others by choice."
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

If its dinnertime please dont be quiet:cool:
 

Drett

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2013
1,663
38
48
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Roboop, I saw a special on PBS(Public Broadcasting System) about Muslims.
They were marching around the holy mosque in Mecca.
Do you know all of the men were dressed in white?
While all of the women were dressed in black(with faces covered)?
Just a bunch of penguins marching around the cube of the holy mosque.
All women were in black(faces covered), all men were in white(faces exposed).
Now, it is common knowledge that wives were considered 'chattle', or property in the mideast.
They still are today.
There is a most certain cultural bias that must be read into the scriptures.
I mean, consider what the apostles said concerning accepting gentiles. (The debate was whether they should be circumcised).
Eventually four tenants were subscribed to the gentiles as having to follow by the apostles in Jerusalem.
One was not to eat meat offered to idols. - - -Now, Paul clearly said that was O.K. if it did not offend the one eating it.
You must judge these standards against the cultural norms of the day.
- - - So Eve was made after Adam? Eve was made for Adam? Who was Adam made for?
Adam and Eve were married. Not all men or women are married.
Not all men and women were meant to be married - "and some are eunuchs from birth. And others by choice."
During Hajj and Umrah men have to wear white, women can choose the colour they want as long as it is not bright. Most, not all, choose black. A women should not cover her face when she is performing Umrah or Hajj.
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
1,419
674
113
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Roboop, I saw a special on PBS(Public Broadcasting System) about Muslims.
They were marching around the holy mosque in Mecca.
Do you know all of the men were dressed in white?
While all of the women were dressed in black(with faces covered)?
Just a bunch of penguins marching around the cube of the holy mosque.
All women were in black(faces covered), all men were in white(faces exposed).
Now, it is common knowledge that wives were considered 'chattle', or property in the mideast.
They still are today.
There is a most certain cultural bias that must be read into the scriptures.
I mean, consider what the apostles said concerning accepting gentiles. (The debate was whether they should be circumcised).
Eventually four tenants were subscribed to the gentiles as having to follow by the apostles in Jerusalem.
One was not to eat meat offered to idols. - - -Now, Paul clearly said that was O.K. if it did not offend the one eating it.
You must judge these standards against the cultural norms of the day.
- - - So Eve was made after Adam? Eve was made for Adam? Who was Adam made for?
Adam and Eve were married. Not all men or women are married.
Not all men and women were meant to be married - "and some are eunuchs from birth. And others by choice."
Okay Rick :) so you're saying "For Adam was created first, and then Eve" was written because of the apostles' own "cultural bias", and the "cultural norms of the day"? You're saying that they put in their own cultural biases, even when they're giving creation as the basis? So, according to you, there's cultural bias on the part of the writer(s) when they wrote "For Adam was created first, and then Eve".

Is it possible that the cultural bias may be on the end of the reader (in this case you, or any modern Western reader)? (With all due respect.)
 

Drett

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2013
1,663
38
48
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Men and women were created equal but have different strengths to help them in their different roles. The world is getting screwed up now because children are being raised by strangers while both parents are working.
 
M

Malcyboy

Guest
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Paul plainly says Men have authority over the Women, and in turn Women should remain quite in church. Well in my perception of this portion of scripture, I truly believe that every word is meant for today, and therefore I believe women should not take a lead teaching role within the church. HOWEVER I do believe in Women's ministry, women who teach women, I also believe women have the authority to teach youth and children's ministries. Why? because they are playing the role of a spiritual mother in these lives, and if we take a look at many proverbs, we realise just the importance of mothers in our lives. However, I do not know where I stand on the idea of a married couple running a ministry i.e. the church I attend was founded by a husband and wife, he was lead pastor and she the "under-pastor", sadly he went home to be with the Lord and now she still runs the ministry. Is this wrong? I don't know, does God work through her and minister to the people? Yes, so is this a blatent contradiction to Paul's instruction for women not to teach? I don't think so. Its much like the argument of whether its biblical to have a youth and children's ministry. Nothing in the bible says "Ordain for yourselves, one to teach the young men, and one to teach the children" lol, however, with growing understanding and knowledge of young people and children, we have come to a place where we can more appropriately teach them. I believe women can teach, however, I do not believe they have authority to teach men (unless its matters about women lol)
 
Jul 27, 2011
1,622
89
0
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

There are many awesome woman of God, that the Holy Spirit speak through. They are all through history.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must be silent"

And my real question is this, for the people who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:

Why would he (Paul) even go on to give this basis:

"For it was Adam who was created first, and then Eve."

(in 1 Tim 2 about a woman learning in silence with entire submission, and not teaching or having authority over a man)

Isn't it clear that Paul is indeed being very gender-specific, not on the basis of what one gender happens to be doing in a specific situation, but rather on the basis of the distinction between genders at CREATION? If it's not universally gender-specific, why in the world would Paul say because Adam was created first??

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.
No question God put men in charge as the head of the family, IMO for one reason, to keep order. Same for the Church government, not based on ability but on a godly paragon. I don't believe this is meant to say that women can't teach or preach because Paul clearly states all can prophesy in 1 Corinthians. But in order for one to preach or teach they must be well versed with the scriptures and Learned, women of Paul's day where generally not.

Also, in general, we also know women are more prone to be "chatty".

Hey, I could be wrong on this, but I heard some wonderful women speakers in my day. We have some wonderful women on this CC forum who teach very well, in some cases IMO, better then some men.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,457
208
63
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must be silent"

And my real question is this, for the people who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:

Why would he (Paul) even go on to give this basis:

"For it was Adam who was created first, and then Eve."

(in 1 Tim 2 about a woman learning in silence with entire submission, and not teaching or having authority over a man)

Isn't it clear that Paul is indeed being very gender-specific, not on the basis of what one gender happens to be doing in a specific situation, but rather on the basis of the distinction between genders at CREATION? If it's not universally gender-specific, why in the world would Paul say because Adam was created first??

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.
The letter to the Corinthians from Paul was to correct the problem of their carnality to all, and need was to put them back under Law for carnal mindedness needs a school master of Law, did you read my other post in further detail. for the context of the letter

Bottom line: How are people to know truth unless God is pouring it out onto them, through another vessel. We the people of God ar no more than vessels to be used by God, flesh self dead with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit of God. The Corinthians were of the flesh as many places today are
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

The letter to the Corinthians from Paul was to correct the problem of their carnality to all, and need was to put them back under Law for carnal mindedness needs a school master of Law, did you read my other post in further detail. for the context of the letter

Bottom line: How are people to know truth unless God is pouring it out onto them, through another vessel. We the people of God ar no more than vessels to be used by God, flesh self dead with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit of God. The Corinthians were of the flesh as many places today are
Not only this, but Timothy's ministry was in the city of Ephesus, and Paul words were to refute the pagan culture in that day. For in Ephesus is where the pagan goddess of Artemis was worshiped that practiced matriarchal authoritarianism. Males were under the authority of a entirely female priesthood under this system.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must be silent"
Well, it doesn't say that though so apparently it was the wives of these husbands that were disruptive. The context in which these verses were placed is confusion in the church; acting disorderly. . .with the operation of the manifestation of the Spirit and with wives apparently asking their husbands questions out of order. . .therefore they were told to be silent and ask their husbands at home. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. . . .Let all things be done decently and in order.
And my real question is this, for the people who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:

Why would he (Paul) even go on to give this basis:

"For it was Adam who was created first, and then Eve."

(in 1 Tim 2 about a woman learning in silence with entire submission, and not teaching or having authority over a man)

Isn't it clear that Paul is indeed being very gender-specific, not on the basis of what one gender happens to be doing in a specific situation, but rather on the basis of the distinction between genders at CREATION? If it's not universally gender-specific, why in the world would Paul say because Adam was created first??

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.
I can't see where a woman teaching the Word of God as having authority over a man. I can be submissive to my husband and still teach the Word of God. I'm sure that if I were to teach - I would go over the subject matter with my husband and any objections or corrections he may have - I would apply, in full subjection to him, to what I was going to teach. I would not be grasping (usurping) his authority as mine. . .but I would work with him as his help meet.

Wives and husbands can work together to further the gospel of Christ. Look at Aquila and Priscilla - they took Paul and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. If the wife was to remain silent. . .why does this say "they"? But we could nit pic over "words" all we want. . .The thing is that it is a big cultural thing for people living in the East - the area in which we are talking - and it's not like we can't see that even today women over there are treated less than human.

Forgive my going on and on but I do want to add. . .I am a woman, but first and foremost - I am a child of God, I am a member of the household of God, the church, the body of Christ. God can place a call upon my life just as with any other member in the body - should I ignore a call upon my life because I am a woman? I don't believe so. If my husband supports me in any endeavor, then I would not be usurping (grasping) his authority from him.

:) We all in some way teach. . . remember in the "church", i.e. the body of Christ, we are all members in particular and God does have a plan for each one of us. . . If He places on my heart a desire to teach. . .then I will. Do I think God will hold it against me. . . no He placed the desire there to begin with!
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Hello brother Stephen

I hope you don't mind me engaging you a bit on this.

Would it be fair to say that your position is that this passage is restricting women only in the same way that men are restricted (if they're guilty of the same disorderly conduct), and ultimately, at least today, there is no distinction whatsoever between men and women speaking in the church, leading in the church, being a pastor, etc? Is it fair to say that according to you women are not "in submission" in the church any more than men -- no distinction. Your opinion on this passage is that it's saying women shouldn't "agitate the leader by constant interrruption". They can't agitate the leader but they can BE the leader, according to your position, and can even be the head pastor. And so, according to you, this passage only prohibits disorderly conduct, something that applies equally to men, if they're guilty of it (because of lack of education, or having previously been bottled up and then can't control themselves in an orderly church meeting, etc.)

So I'm just asking for a clear statement if I may. Is it the case that you believe that in today's church there should be no distinction whatsoever between men and women (as long as they're all educated and civilized) with regard to speaking in the church, teaching, leading, being the pastor, etc. And any passages about "being in submission" (in the church) actually would apply equally to men as well if men were guilty of the same disorder, lack of education, etiquette, etc. -- hence, in today's Western church with educated men and women there should be no distinction as to what they can do from the pulpit, leading, teaching the church, being the pastor, etc. Is this correct?

Of course you know I think there is a distinction, that the scripture teaches for women to "be in submission" in both the home and the church, in ways that do not apply equally to men (who can lead). But I just want to bring it out clearly if I may, because I think it's an important question and something to make clear on where we stand on this when discussing it. I mean this whole thing gets a little foggy with all the discussion and it's sometimes hard to see what people really mean.

And honestly, I don't know how we can get from "let the women be in subjection" (in 1 Cor 14) and "let the women learn in silence in entire subjection" (1 Tim 2) to "let the women lead and be the head pastor of the church" (and let men be in subjection to them).

Because then we've turned those passages upside down to where not only are women not in subjection but actually the men are then in subjection to a women or women who are leading/pastoring the church.

P.S. put nicely, I just think men need to lovingly lead, both in the home and the church, and women should be happy to have men being the spiritual leaders both in the home and the church, and should appreciate men leading the family and the church, taking on the responsibility to lead those under their care to follow Jesus -- that's a wonderful thing :)
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB) [SUP]34 [/SUP]The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

When we look at context of these two verses, we get the distinct impression that the women's talking was about asking questions during the service.
When we look at the context of the entire book of first Corinthians, we see that this church in particular had problems with abusing the gifts of the Spirit, and abusing their Christian liberty. As we look at the entirety of chapter 14, it is speaking about how prophecy should be properly used, decently and in order

Consider this: if a Jewish woman who under the old covenant couldn't say a word in the synagogue receives salvation where she is told she is free in Christ Jesus from the Law, and goes to a church where there are abuses in Christian liberty, what do you think will be the result? A committed Christian who is aware of their ignorance will desire to do all they can to learn. Since most of them couldn't read, the majority of their learning was during the service. Since the majority is new converts, we may be able to assume that the majority was also ignorant about the teachings of the new covenant. This could explain the abuses of the gifts as well as their Christian liberty.

If this speaking is about prophecy, which chapter 14 completely covers, it still has nothing to do with preaching and teaching, or using authority as a leader. None of the context of the chapter talks about preaching/teaching ministry at all.
1 Timothy 2:9-15 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [SUP]10 [/SUP]But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Hard Sayings of the Bible:
1 Tim. 2:11-12. No Women Teachers?
The language here is seemingly straightforward and clear. But does Paul really mean what we think he means? And if he does mean it, is this an instruction he intended for universal application, regardless of historical context and circumstances?
This passage and 1 Tim. 2:13-15 are at the heart of the ongoing discussion of the place and role of women in church, home and society. Answers to the above questions are critical in that discussion.
This passage is a difficult one for yet another reason, namely, an emotional/experiential one. As a male, I am sure I cannot fully grasp the impact this apostolic word must have on women. But given that limitation, I can nonetheless understand something of the damage to one's self-worth and sense of giftedness this restrictive word must evoke. We are living at a point in history in which women and men are recognized as equally gifted in intellectual ability and communication skills. In such a climate, the apostolic prohibition seems particularly difficult to understand and accept. For what is it about gender which militates against the full expression of the Creator's gifts of heart and mind and spirit?
This question has often been answered with the assertion that clearly defined roles for men and women are divinely ordained and that Paul's restrictive instruction is evidence of such a universal norm. That response, however, is problematic. The account of the creation of male and female in Genesis 1-2—which we take as a foundational theological statement of the Creator's design and intention—affirms male and female as equal and complementary. Both are bearers, together, of God's image (Genesis 1:26-27). Both are given the mandate to responsible sovereignty over the created order (Genesis 1:28). The creation of the woman is intended to rescue the man from his aloneness and to provide him with a complement (Genesis 2:18).
Over against an ancient view that the gods played a trick on man by creating woman of inferior material, the creation account of Genesis affirms the woman to be of the same essence as man ("bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh," Genesis 2:23). Thus the view that God intended the woman for a restricted role in home, church and society cannot be grounded in the order of creation.
A restricted status for woman has been traditionally grounded in the account of the Fall (Genesis 3) in both Jewish and Christian thought and practice. But it is clear from the context of Genesis 2-3 that the words of Genesis 3:16—"Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you"—do not announce God's created design for a male hierarchy. Rather these words announce a cursed existence because of a broken relationship between the human creation and the Creator. A restricted place for woman, and male-over-female dominance, is thus not divine purpose but an expression of human sin.
For Paul, the purpose of Christ's redemptive work was to set God's creation free from the curse of Eden. Those "in Christ" were new creations (2 Cor. 5:17), freed from the bondage of sin and its expression in human relationships (Romans 6:5-7). In the new humanity created in Christ, the culturally and religiously ingrained view that some human beings, on the basis of gender or race or social status, were in some sense inferior could no longer be maintained (Galatians 3:26-28). That was surely one of Paul's central theological convictions.
In discussing the passage in 1 Cor. 14:33-40, where Paul instructs women in the church to "remain silent," we saw that this restriction was not universally applied either by Paul or by other early congregations. Women functioned in prominent leadership positions (Phoebe, Lydia, Euodia, Syntyche, Priscilla, Junia), designated as ministers (or deacons, Romans 16:1), fellow workers (Romans 16:3), colaborers in the gospel (Phil. 4:2-9), apostles (or messengers, Romans 16:7). The Spirit of God empowered both men and women to be proclaimers of God's redemptive work in Christ (Acts 2:14-18). Women's participation in the edifying presentation of the gospel and vocal prayer in the congregation were a normal part of early church life (1 Cor. 11).
In light of the above considerations, reasons for the particular restriction imposed on women in Timothy's congregation must be discovered from within the text and the situation in the church which Paul addresses. If, as we have seen, a curtailed role for women was neither a part of the divine intention in creation nor a normative aspect of the redeemed order, then the curtailment of their speaking and teaching and leading—in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2—must be in response to critical, local situations. Investigation of 1 Cor. 14 revealed such a crisis setting in Corinth. A critical situation in the life and faith of Timothy's congregation seems likewise the reason for Paul's instruction here.
Upon reading 1 Timothy, one becomes immediately aware that the integrity of the Christian faith is at stake. There are some in the church who teach false doctrines and are occupied with myths and other speculative ideas which militate against sound and sincere faith (1 Tim. 1:3-4). Some have wandered into vain debates, seeking to be teachers without understanding and discernment (1 Tim. 1:6-7). There is throughout a concern for maintaining and guarding the truth of the faith (1 Tim. 1:19; 1 Tim. 2:4-7; 1 Tim. 3:14-16; 1 Tim. 4:1-3, 6-7, 16; 1 Tim. 6:1-5, 12).
We do not know the identity of the false teachers or the full content of their teaching. From the instructions given, we can conclude that the false teaching led to a disregard for proper decorum and practices in the church (1 Tim. 2:8-15) as well as to a rejection of the institution of marriage (1 Tim. 4:3). In light of this last aspect of the heretical teaching, it is noteworthy that particular attention is directed to young widows (in 1 Tim. 5:9-15), who are urged to marry, have children and manage their homes (1 Tim. 5:14). When these normal, socially prescribed roles and functions are neglected or rejected, these women are prone to "gossiping" and being "busybodies, saying things they ought not to" (1 Tim. 5:13).
On the basis of this data, at least two reconstructions of the situation in Timothy's congregation at Ephesus are possible: (1) the women in the church at Ephesus were the primary advocates and promoters of the heretical teachings which were upsetting accepted patterns of congregational and home life; (2) the women in the church had been particularly influenced by the heretical teachers. Such a situation in the Ephesian church is addressed in 2 Tim. 3:6-9, where women, the special targets of those "who oppose the truth" (2 Tim. 3:8), become "unable to acknowledge the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7).
In either case, Paul's restrictive word in 1 Tim. 2:11-12 must be understood within a context where false teaching is at issue. The general prohibition against all those who "teach false doctrines" (1 Tim. 1:3) is now focused specifically on the women who have fallen prey to such false teaching or who are involved in its promulgation.
The admonition of 1 Tim. 2:11—"learn in quietness and full submission"—is thus directed at the women who, on the basis of the heretical teaching, have become loud voices, strident advocates of ideas that are upsetting the ordered contexts of congregational and home life. The "submission" enjoined on them is most likely a submission to the elders in the church, who are guardians of the truth and ordered worship. The prohibition against their teaching is occasioned by their involvement in false teachings. Finally, the prohibition against "authority over a man" (1 Tim. 2:12) must be understood within the context of their rejection of the authority of others, probably the male leaders in Ephesus whose orthodox, authoritative teaching is being undermined by their heretical views. The unusual Greek word used carries primarily the negative sense of "grasping for" or "usurping authority." Thus, the restriction of women's place and participation in the life and ministry of the church at Ephesus is most probably "directed against women involved in false teaching who have abused proper exercise of authority in the church (not denied by Paul elsewhere to women) by usurpation and domination of the male leaders and teachers in the church at Ephesus." Paul goes on to ground this instruction in reflections on selected passages from Genesis.

See also comment on [SUP]§[/SUP]Genesis 2:18; [SUP]§[/SUP]Genesis 3:16; [SUP]§[/SUP]1 Cor. 11:3; [SUP]§[/SUP]1 Cor. 11:7; [SUP]§[/SUP]1 Cor. 14:33-34.
Because of the sin in Genesis, the women's role was changed. In the beginning, it was not so.

Paul's instructions about authority is pretty plain: women should not grasp for authority in the church, nor the family.
"Grasping" is self-initiated, for selfish purposes. However, when God calls women into ministry (& He does), it is confirmed by God to the individual & to the church. Junia was accepted by the church fathers for 12 centuries before her name was changed due to sexual discrimination by some of the translators.

Through the centuries, many things have been changed by the church to "reclassify" & "rewrite" the roles & responsibilities in the church. For example, Jesus told his disciples to proclaim the gospel everywhere. The church since then has reclassified what proclaiming is, and who should do it. Jesus told the whole church to do it. Now traditional religion says only pastors & evangelists can preach. It is traditional religion that has changed the role of prophet to a limited fortuneteller of future events. It is traditional religion that is change the role of apostle to missionary, so that denominations can hold authority over them. The word missionary is nowhere in the bible. Its name and responsibilities are totally made up by men. That was what job the apostles did. Now the apostle is a second class minister who couldn't get a job pastoring a local church, so they were sent to the foreign fields.
 

RoboOp

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Aug 4, 2008
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks for answering but can I get a clearer answer.

You're now saying that the NT does teach that women shouldn't "grasp for authority in the church", but yet it can be given to them. Isn't that also true for men? So I'm back to my original question if I may:

Does the New Testament teach that there's any distinction between men and women with regard to permitted leadership, teaching, and speaking roles in the church?
 

RoboOp

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Aug 4, 2008
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

And a separate question, Stephen (though very related). You say:

"Because of the sin in Genesis, the women's role was changed. In the beginning, it was not so."

But didn't Paul refer to not only the fall but creation ("for Adam was created first, and then Eve")? Doesn't that mean that there were distinct roles at creation, as part of God's original design (not just something that's part of the curse after the fall)?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

What if a group of women decided (for whatever reason) to have a women-only church?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Oh and on a side note.
Someone personally CC mailed me yesterday saying everyone on the forums was just SUPER nice to me because I'm an admin. He suggested I make another name and post under that, then people would really give me tons of pushback.
I thought you did that already?:p
 

brmicke

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Sep 6, 2012
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.
Of course this is true - if a man was being disruptive He also should be corrected. This is not however the situation Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 14:34-35. He apparently was addressing/correcting a case where a wife had brought a marital argument into the church meeting.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must remain ...


A person can't really make this jump and say that this applies to the situation Paul is addressing in 1 Cor 14:34-35. I think the reference to the Law in 1 Cor 14:34 originates in Genesis 3:16. In Gen 3:16 God designates the Husband to rule or oversee the marriage union. The bible here is very gender specific in that the woman is not made responsible to rule/govern or exercise oversight regarding the marriage union.

And my real question is this, "for the people" who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:
Those who say there is no gender specific instruction in scripture are incorrect.

Your point about Adam being created first is correct. However 1 Cor 14:34-35 is a different situation from 1 Tim 2:11. Whether Paul was addressing an actual situation that existed or He was trying to stave off the potential of that situation arising, a different Greek word is used by Paul in these cases. In 1 Cor 14:34 the word for silence is Strong's concordance number 4601 which means to "Hold peace" or as it is translated "keep silence", This would suggest that the opposite were true in the case of 1 Cor 14:34-35, and a condition of disorder existed.

In other words Paul was saying that they were to keep the peace or be orderly because this was not the case at the time. This would be similar to a Parent telling children to "be quite" when they were misbehaving. A Parent who simply tells children to behave would not be the same thing as a parent trying to calm a situation of disorder that already existed.

Paul seems to have been correcting a situation in 1 Cor 14:34-35 whereas in 1 Tim 2:11 He is simply telling people how to behave.

The word "silence" in 1 Tim 2:11 is the Strong's concordance word numbered 2271, This word simply admonished a women or wife to be peaceful. "Not speaking" is not an accurate translation because 1 Cor 14:31 says that all may "prophesy". So even in 1 Tim 2:11 the admonition is to be "orderly", not completely "silent" or not speaking at all.

My favorite definition of the Greek word which is translated using the English word "silence" is this -

"to remain in a fixed state of peaceableness".

I can't remember where I found this definition but I do remember having found it when I was studying these verses previously.

You specifically say "who" you are directing your comments towards. If your post is read and the words I highlighted are not recognized then your comments/corrections can be misunderstood to be directed towards everyone, which is not a correct reading of your post.

You are not directing your comments/disagreements towards everyone but specifically towards those who don't recognize the gender roles mentioned in Scripture.

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.
Respectfully - Brian