Koran

[ThomasLady]

Society often demonizes certain people, cultures, races, etc. I tend to read the books that this bias would tell you not to read. So I, a white Irish person, raised catholic, am reading the Koran. Not as scary as you would think. Basically Mohammed felt that after Abraham and Moses (and the rest of the Apostles) there was Jesus. And after Jesus there was him. Basically he felt that the claim that Jesus and the holy spirit were one with God (trinity), was created by humans, and that even Jesus himself treated God as separate and better than him. Clearly the beginning of the Koran claims women are inferior and really speaks negatively about Jewish people. But nothing much of substance yet (I am up to the chapter called The Table). Waiting to see the evidence for Mohammed being a prophet.

As far as terrorism, as expected, there are some passages that encourage physical punishment of non-believers that do not seek peace with Muslims, but there are also passages encouraging Muslims to ignore and forgive non-belief. A lot of emphasis, as in most religions, for believers to donate money and not run away in the middle of a battle.

 

[kenisyes]

Anyone who is alive still has something of God in them (life), so they willnever be totally wrong. But without Jesus, no one can be right about God either. This includes Mohammed, and his book.

 

[mellybellyjf]

While the Quran and Islam give Jesus the place of a prophet they deny salvation through Christ.

Read lf you want, it's good to know what you are taking about and not just talk about what others have claimed to know. I always think its great to expand ones knowledge about culture, people, and beliefs, especially of you want to be an effective and adequate witness.

To the believer though, regardless of whether it not the Quran calls its followers to war ( as if PROFFESING Christians were not part of the crusades) the truth remains.... the Quran is misleading to all its believers and takes them away from the God who loved them so much He was willing to lay down his life.

 

[ThomasLady]

Reading it (up to chapter called Cattle), I think the Koran (Quran) is saying that they believe everything about Jesus (birth through virgin Mary, miracles performed while on Earth, Resurrection, etc.), they believe all of the Old and New Testament, they just do not believe that Jesus was God in human form. They believe (or the Koran tells them to believe) that Jesus was an apostle, a messenger, in a long line of messengers. They believe that the trail of messengers (Adam, Noah, Abraham......Jesus) does not end with Jesus. Obviously this contradicts Christianity

 

[Bryancampbell]

They don't believe the trinity, I have read some of the Qur'an and my best friend is a Muslim Iranian. Don't get caught up in their belief, remember Mohammed was centuries after Jesus, and the writings of him were written after his death. Be careful don't fall into their snare.

 

[ThomasLady]

What is the snare you refer to? Not for nothing, it is not like the New Testament was written by someone taking dictation while Jesus was speaking

 

[Bryancampbell]

What is the snare you refer to? Not for nothing, it is not like the New Testament was written by someone taking dictation while Jesus was speaking

it is true the disciples did write it after His ascension, but we know that the Spirit inspired them in what we now use as doctrine and scripture. But you see Mohammad, believe it or not, actually was influenced by the church and how they grew under persecution in like terms, he may have been a Christian at one point before making his own doctrine.

 

[ThomasLady]

I could see why you would say that, although I do not think he was a Christian. Historically speaking, Muhammad is said to have been impressed with Jewish and Christian monotheism, as opposed to the common Arabian paganism and religions worshipping Allah and other gods regarded as Allah's daughters (I am using the many of the words from N.J. Dawood who wrote the translation I am reading).

Again, I am sure Muslims say that the people that actually wrote down the Koran that I am reading a translated version of, got it right too, through continued communication of the word of Muhammad to their time, as well as divine inspiration and guidance.

I am up to the Chapter called "The Spoils", and am done with 125 of 435 pages. I have still not read any detail regarding the proof (miracles etc.) that Muhammad was God's messenger. Some of the main messages so far are (1) to add some more rules of living to the Bible (inheritance, foods that can be eaten, penalties for non-ethical acts...), (2) to say that the Old Testament and the New Testament are to be followed, and (3) that Muhammad is the next apostle after Jesus. I still have a lot to read though.

 

[Bryancampbell]

I could see why you would say that, although I do not think he was a Christian. Historically speaking, Muhammad is said to have been impressed with Jewish and Christian monotheism, as opposed to the common Arabian paganism and religions worshipping Allah and other gods regarded as Allah's daughters (I am using the many of the words from N.J. Dawood who wrote the translation I am reading).

Again, I am sure Muslims say that the people that actually wrote down the Koran that I am reading a translated version of, got it right too, through continued communication of the word of Muhammad to their time, as well as divine inspiration and guidance.

I am up to the Chapter called "The Spoils", and am done with 125 of 435 pages. I have still not read any detail regarding the proof (miracles etc.) that Muhammad was God's messenger. Some of the main messages so far are (1) to add some more rules of living to the Bible (inheritance, foods that can be eaten, penalties for non-ethical acts...), (2) to say that the Old Testament and the New Testament are to be followed, and (3) that Muhammad is the next apostle after Jesus. I still have a lot to read though.

You will soon find out he will claim to be Gabriel the angel...and much more deluted theology. I once read the entire teachings of Buddhism, very interesting but filled with lots of opinions about how life functions. I think Buddha was looking for God in some way...but got caught up with opinions. The morals is similar to most religions at an extent.

 

[Witness45]

Waiting to see the evidence for Mohammed being a prophet.

There is no evidence for Mohammad being a prophet. He wrote the Qur'an, he testifies about himself. Jesus said "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." Thus there were many eyewitness testimonies that wrote the New Testament.

 

[kenisyes]

I think God probably did tell Mohammed to stop worshipping idols and start worhipping Him. And I wouldn't be surprised if God told Mohammed to tell other Arabs the same thing. But if that is true, Mohammed should have said that much, and then shut up. There would never have been a Koran, just conversions from idolatry. God could have sent a real evangelist to tell the Moslems about Jesus, and history would have been very different.

Moslems make a big deal out of the fact that Jesus did not "dictate" his book, so His prophecies cannot be trusted, since they are memories of a prophet who is no longer around. Of course, we know that Jesus is very much alive today in us.

 

[ThomasLady]

Although like the Koran and other religious books, there is contradiction in the Bible and one can find a passage to justify many divergent actions, clearly there is much in the Bible that tells us to search for Truth. Witnessing how the Truth is frequently manipulated and half-communicated today to achieve earthly goals, we could not consider ourselves seekers of the Truth if we blindly believed that those that put the Bible together in the past got it all right, perhaps 100 or more years after Jesus (no eyewitnesses wrote the Bible). That would be a disservice to Jesus, who I am certain wants us to seek his communicated ideas through all the different, likely imperfect, captured remnants of his actual words.

 

[kenisyes]

But Jesus is still alive, in you, in the Body of Christ, and in the events of the world. Mohammed is not. Why not just learn from the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bryancampbell]

Although like the Koran and other religious books, there is contradiction in the Bible and one can find a passage to justify many divergent actions, clearly there is much in the Bible that tells us to search for Truth. Witnessing how the Truth is frequently manipulated and half-communicated today to achieve earthly goals, we could not consider ourselves seekers of the Truth if we blindly believed that those that put the Bible together in the past got it all right, perhaps 100 or more years after Jesus (no eyewitnesses wrote the Bible). That would be a disservice to Jesus, who I am certain wants us to seek his communicated ideas through all the different, likely imperfect, captured remnants of his actual words.

Actually eye witnesses did write the bible such as Matthew and John and Peter who helped Mark and James who was the brother of Jesus etc, these were apostles and men of God, Stick only with the bible...

 

[RedTent]

Something that isn't being brought out is how God has never put up with people who don't give themselves completely to Him, but just part way. The Koran has much of God in it, but it isn't for our learning. There were many sects and ideas of God in Paul's day, but even though the apostles had the Holy Spirit, they went to the scripture they had, the OT, to learn rather than what the different sects had to say.

God is not a tolerant God. When the people were waiting for Moses to return from the mountain they couldn't understand a God who had nothing material to show them, so they made something to represent Him, they made the golden calf. It was a symbol of the one true God, they said, so it was OK. In their hearts it was God they worshipped. God said no. When Aaron's sons thought it was OK to change how they did their duties just a little, they died. God says the demons know Him well. So does the Koran.

I think God wants us to stay away from it.

 

[ThomasLady]

although you are talking about a different religion (Christianity), the requirement for blind obedience and acceptance seems to be a common theme to both religions. I do not think God is afraid of honest questioning of the intentions and accuracy of the authors of the Old and New Testament, that is why the Bible encourages the search for Wisdom in many ways.

Kenisyes, I think Jesus is alive as well, but not in the body of Christ, but in the Words or the ideas he expressed. Finding Jesus is about reading, searching and thinking until somehow your brain understands him and his message as it was in 20-40AD. That is when he is alive within you.

 

[kenisyes]

Kenisyes, I think Jesus is alive as well, but not in the body of Christ.

It's sad that anyone has to feel that way. Anyone not in his body, is like a discarnate intelligence, some kind of ghost I suppose. And it's even sadder when a person has to go in search of words that maybe will give ideas, that need to substitute for relationship that ought to be there, and could be there, but is not. Do you suppose when you achieve your goal, His life in you will reach someone else?

 

[ThomasLady]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Please don't be sad for me. God and Jesus are alive in me because I have put in the time to search scores of books and think for hours on end, until I found them, until I understood Them. And I did not understand them because I was told to believe by those in authority; I found Them through the search for Wisdom and Truth

 

[RedTent]

although you are talking about a different religion (Christianity), the requirement for blind obedience and acceptance seems to be a common theme to both religions. I do not think God is afraid of honest questioning of the intentions and accuracy of the authors of the Old and New Testament, that is why the Bible encourages the search for Wisdom in many ways.

Kenisyes, I think Jesus is alive as well, but not in the body of Christ, but in the Words or the ideas he expressed. Finding Jesus is about reading, searching and thinking until somehow your brain understands him and his message as it was in 20-40AD. That is when he is alive within you.

I agree, so very much, that we are to search. I think history is a prime place for our search, to see if God is working in our world and how God works. We have so many saying we must not look at what the deep sea scrolls has uncovered, and I think God gave them to us to help bridge the gap between our understanding of scripture given through cultures of so long ago and today. Will Durant who was an atheist when he started writing the Story of Civilization later said that no one could read this story and deny God. But I don't think that pagan religions, or even ones that take off from our God is the place to search. Mohammad started his religion 500 years after Christ was crucified, and after he had problems with the church, for instance. Why look there for truth? Nimrod started a religion of the sun. He was a great grandson of Noah. I don't think we need search his ideas of God to learn truth.

 

[ThomasLady]

Totally agree with you RedTent. I am not reading the Koran to find Truth, I am actually done with that search, for me. I have found God. Not that I would be shocked or dissapointed if some unexpected revelation came my way.

Reading the Koran for me is more about seeing what it is all about first hand, rather than from the news or through the actions of terrorists.