"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[RoboOp]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp,

You do make some valid points. And while I cannot say you have swayed me to change my position on this matter, it is refreshing to speak with someone who is well-versed in Scripture. I do have another question, one which was not answered previously by you:

Given the fact there is a major decline in Protestantism in America -- a 5% decline per decade since the 1950's, to be exact -- do you agree God will use any means necessary to ensure the 'Great Commission' is fulfilled? As someone who will be attending seminary soon, I am fully aware we are losing pastors at a greater rate in this country than we are making new ones. So I ask, keeping in mind Luke 19:40, is it better we continue to see a decrease of pastors by excluding women from serving the role of pastor, or should we increase the number of pastors in the pulpit overall, by allowing women to share in the responsibility of fulfilling Christ's 'Great Commission'? Thank you for your consideration.

Nicene I'm sure some others can give a good answer to this but I'll be glad to try to answer it also, just give me some time to get back to this okay (and feel free to remind me if I forget).

(And sorry if I neglected to respond to anyone else who addressed me.)

 

[homwardbound]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Not only this, but Timothy's ministry was in the city of Ephesus, and Paul words were to refute the pagan culture in that day. For in Ephesus is where the pagan goddess of Artemis was worshiped that practiced matriarchal authoritarianism. Males were under the authority of a entirely female priesthood under this system.

Thanks for that knowledge too, it is important to know context, when written and why it was written, in order to see full truth not part, as I have done many times only seen part, and am thankful to God that god is trustworthy to impart full truth, teaching me this as I go in this life here not being of the world only in it

 

[Bookends]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Our church had a husband and wife team at one time. And I have to admit the wife did a much better job at preaching from the word/pulpit, were the husband was much better at social service.

 

[homwardbound]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks so you've made it clear that you don't think there's any distinction between men and women whatsoever in the New Testament with regard to permitted teaching and leadership roles in the church, not even with regard to being the pastor of the church -- and you think that the NT even provides us example(s) of pastors of churches who were women in authority over men.

So that leads me to this big question for you and anyone who holds that position:

Can you explain why Paul said this in 1 Tim 2: "For Adam was created first, and then Eve"?

I see this as facts are facts, Adam was created first, and then Eve as a help mate.
Now today God can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth

1. John 4:23
   But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
   John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
   
   So since God can only be worshipped this way and we are to be born again here and now by the resurrected Christ in Spirit. then after the cross where we all are today worship God in Spirit.
   So since we are in Spirit is there any male or female, Jew, Greek, or Gentile in God's Spirit?
   I think the fight is still between flesh and Spirit
   So either we are of flesh and working hard in it or we are at ease while in this unredeemed flesh being led by God's Spirit as Christ was while Christ here in this earth in flesh
   So on a Spiritual level from God there is no male, female, Greek, Gentile and or Jew. And no Church building her eon earth does God reside in.
   So being of flesh, carnal, yes all things are to be in order and man is over woman.
   But in the Spirit of God we are :
   1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
   
   Is there a separation from God's viewpoint?
   Paul in Paul's writings had to state what he had to state since to whom he stated it to, where still carnal.
   1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
   1 Corinthians 3:4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
   Colossians 3:1 [ Not Carnality but Christ ] If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
   
   So let us all seek the Spiritual God, that no flesh in God's sight will ever please God. Christ is the only one that did please God in the flesh.
   So let us see truth fully and be alive in God's Spirit forsaking the fallen flesh as if it is dead with Christ at the death of Christ. I think this is what we are to see, God is calling, are we listening>
   Galatians 5:16 [ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
   
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Stephen63]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen, sorry if you misunderstood me. I simply said that since you said "let a woman learn in silence with entire submission" is not referring to in the church, but rather marriage (if that's what you meant), it just seems that that's even more extreme -- to say that a woman should learn in silence in the home with the husband, if that's how you interpret 1 Tim 2. But it's hard to understand you because here also you said "thus the silence, till she gets home" -- yet I thought that according to you the passage is saying for wives to learn in silence in the home. If I'm not understanding you, pardon me.

I'm sorry, I thought I'd made it clear. The issue of being quiet in the church is because of women asking questions during the service, whether to the leader or two her husband. That's why she is told to be silent till she gets home. That part is about the church. It was a submission/respect issue with the women of that church.

1 Corinthians 14:35 (KJV) 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

From what I'm gathering....

This is telling women they can't ask questions in church, and they should wait until they get home to learn and ask questions of their husband..

As in all the churches of the saints,[SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.[SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

This is telling women that once at home with their husbands they must remain quiet while he's teaching them and not even ask questions. And she can't even teach her own husband anything at home.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.[SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve;[SUP]14 [/SUP]and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

That's what I'm gathering from some...

1. Women can't ask questions at church due to disruption. So go home and learn from your husband.
2. Once home and learning from your husband, the wife must be quiet and not ask questions, and she can't teach her own husband anything.

 

[Ariel82]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

From what I'm gathering....

This is telling women they can't ask questions in church, and they should wait until they get home to learn and ask questions of their husband..



This is telling women that once at home with their husbands they must remain quiet while he's teaching them and not even ask questions. And she can't even teach her own husband anything at home.



That's what I'm gathering from some...

1. Women can't ask questions at church due to disruption. So go home and learn from your husband.
2. Once home and learning from your husband, the wife must be quiet and not ask questions, and she can't teach her own husband anything.

It's much more about the wife taking the authority that God gave the husband. Grasping something God has commanded her husband to have.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It's much more about the wife taking the authority that God gave the husband. Grasping something God has commanded her husband to have.

For example, the wife could teach the husband how to do the budget when he wants to learn. If the husband and wife are studying their bibles together the wife can teach the husband if he asks a question. It's not that she shouldn't, it's that she shouldn't do it forcefully, against his will, or as the leader of the household. Any wife that does things this way usually also does it in public, which is a shame and shows disrespect.

 

[homwardbound]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Sounds to be equality, hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Flesh still fights Spirit of God does it not?
Galatians 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

I choose, God's Spirit for me daily, that's all folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[brmicke]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

A gentle and quiet spirit - a fixed state of peaceableness etc.

After reading the last few posts and after all of this discussion I am beginning to think that many involved in this discussion really don't want to come to a scriptural conclusion in this area. They simply want to be contrary so as to keep others in a state of unsteadiness with regard to the place of women in the church. Keeping the issue alive seems to be the goal of the discussion.

The desire of some seems to be to keep the issue of women in the church unanswered by not recognizing any answer as sufficient. The debate then becomes the primary concern and the actual scriptural conclusion to the matter becomes a secondary issue. It makes me think that arriving at a conclusion was never really the desired result of the discussion at all.

This would tend to make the point that those who employ the feminine characteristics of seduction and seeking advantage for its own sake are not suited to be in positions of authority in the church. The wisdom and foresight of God becomes clearer.

 

[Jullianna]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

In your opinion, is the directive for women to remain silent in the churches still for today as seen in the verses below?
Did it cease?
Was it for a certain time and place, and is no longer applicable for today?

If you're a cessationist on this issue, why?
If you're a continuist on this issue, why?

Please stay on topic.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.

The Truth of God's Word does not change with culture and/or time. What was true then remains true. There is nothing new under the sun or the Son.

God has established an order that we cannot change whether we like it or not. Can we try? Sure. Will we have limited success? Maybe. Can God work all things together for good even if when we try and fail? Yep. Is it always better to do things HIS way in the first place? Yep. Might the Church be more powerful in the world today if we were within God's perfect will rather than His permissible will? Hmmm....

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

There seems to be a slant toward women cannot pastor a church, with men in it, let's make that distinction, and, really, what kind of distinction is that, LOL, how many women-only churches do you know, LOL ???

But, there is confusion over this Truth, obviously, how much arguing has gone on over it amongst Christian brothers and sisters of this topic ?

But. where there is no confusion is in God Himself, Holy, true to Himself and true to us, always faithful because Scripture tells us He cannot be unfaithful. He is faith, in other words, so, IF one wants a definition of faith, an ultimate one, God is faith.

So, God is not the author of confusion, so His breathed out words to apostles, prophets, that became Scripture, are true, with NO confusion. So, where is the confusion ? It's obviously here. So, where is it ? ?? ?

It seems that both 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 and 1 Tim. 2:12 offer much confusion, even so, there outstanding verses, too. around those main verses.

But, God is NOT the author of confusion. He says in Isaiah 58 (you do believe the Old Testament is God's Word, too, I hope, if not, get close and let me tell you something, IT IS !!! ) that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

So, if there is confusion in verses of the bible among Christian brothers and sisters, and, THERE IS, then, what must then be a secondary method to realizing truth, since God is not the author of confusion? HOw about realizing other Scripture, which is what I just did, offering Isaiah 55:8, and, the outstanding verses, too, are listed below.

7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

So, in conclusion, if we don't know God's thoughts, and, WE DON'T, as, another verse says the same thing, so not to think you of me parsing isolated Scripture....Interesting to note too in this 1 Cor. 2 passage that God is speaking of revealing wisdom through His Holy Spriit. The question then begs: CAN a woman be called by God's ways, by God's thoughts to be a pastor of a church that has men ?

Or, does 1 Cor. 14:34-35, speaking of wives, as is stileldwater's opening post contention of thought ALSO speaking to women who are NOT just wives, or, not wives at all, LOL, but ARE pastors. Same goes for 1 Tim. 2:12 , are those 'women' who are childbearing ALL to be doing just that?? What about Phoebe in Romans 16, she was a 'servant' of the Lord, what about Aquinas and Appolos, do we parse Scripture to say that , 'Well, green, Acquinas ( the wife of Apollos) never taught in their house to the men, she just sat there, we can assume."

Should we assume, we don't know God's mind

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[SUP]b[/SUP] —
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[SUP]c[/SUP] 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[SUP]d[/SUP]

But we have the mind of Christ.

And, what do you know, also, we have the NEW TESTAMENT to complement the OLD

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

The Truth of God's Word does not change with culture and/or time. What was true then remains true. There is nothing new under the sun or the Son.

God has established an order that we cannot change whether we like it or not. Can we try? Sure. Will we have limited success? Maybe. Can God work all things together for good even if when we try and fail? Yep. Is it always better to do things HIS way in the first place? Yep. Might the Church be more powerful in the world today if we were within God's perfect will rather than His permissible will? Hmmm....

I'm interpreting what you wrote as saying you're in agreement with the interpretation which believes leadership in church and home should only be done by Jesus following servant hearted men, and that leadership in church and home was not designed by God to include things like women pastors and such. Am I correct?

 

[Jullianna]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I'm interpreting what you wrote as saying you're in agreement with the interpretation which believes leadership in church and home should only be done by Jesus following servant hearted men, and that leadership in church and home was not designed by God to include things like women pastors and such. Am I correct?

That would be a correct interpretation of my interpretation of scripture, yes.....depending upon the "and such" part. Women have their responsibilities and giftings within the Kingdom of God, but, as Paul said, I would be uncomfortable in a position within the Church that gave me authority over men.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Are women who are pastors now comfortable with their calling?

What's more, is fruitful labor coming of their work ?

I have NO problem with Scripture saying that women should submit to husbands and be quiet in worship and ask questions at home. Makes sense. No problem with that Truth. None.

And, I don't even call it a problem , it is simply the fact that the Lord leads, and, what is
perfect and permissible, as, julieannie put it, is at issue here. WE HUMANS make wrong mistakes and God works things out for good. Now, I wouldn't want to go so far as calling a woman becoming a pastor 'evil,' but I will say that His perfect will is NOT a woman to pastor a church. It's not ! But, can a woman be called by God and be perfectly comfortable in being in charge of a church, as a pastor? Absolutely, IF she is doing good fruit, and, I would even go so far as to say that perfect would be a smalltown church where there is no man willing to lead the congregation, this would make sense for a woman to be pastor at this church. I THINK, a man should, at some point, come along, but, the Lord leads, and, His ways may not be that way, that may not be God's thoughts on the matter. He may have that women in that office called and she is having faith in Him and God is using her to win souls for Christ. WE MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, God draws us to Him, but we choose what we, ultimately, are gong to do. Are we going to follow Him? That is the question. Jesus says plainly, we sure should, in John 21:22 "...you follow Me." Jesus is talking to Peter, jealous that John will be the only disciple not to die a martyr's death, this is foretelling . Peter complains and says, 'If I will that he (John) remains, what is that to you, you follow Me.'

Our life is not our own, it is the Lord's. When we say that a woman should NEVER pastor a church, are we doing God's work, interrupting His ways, and, are we also interrupting His thoughts ? If a woman pastor is in a church, shouldn't we just say, 'Thy will be done.' We should not consipre to get them out of that role IF they are doing things that bear fruit. Right? God will PRUNE them, or, cut off the bad branches.

But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21"So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

 

[Abiding]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Did He make a Julianna in a 50 something model?

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

7Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Those from Isaiah 55:8, you know them well, don't you brother, God's providence , brother.

And, these words that speaks of something that is not the PERFECT will of God and evil COULD result.

But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21"So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

as, as staunch in my belief that women CAN pastor a church, I STILL do NOT think it's the ideal situation, in MOST cases. But, I AM is God and I am just a man and my ways of doing things and my thoughts for how a situation should be done is not God's ways nor thoughts necessarily and He's got it ALL planned out, every last detail. And, sometimes, we humans mess up the plans, and, so, GOD works with our errors and makes good of the evil that was done, or, the disobedience. But, like I said there is CONFUSION to many in verses 1 Tim. 2:11-15 and 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 and so there is NO confusion in Isaiah 55:8.

 

[phil36]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Those who disagree with women coming under the headship of males, misunderstand the difference between function and status. We all have the same status in Christ but our function is different and ordained by God himself. I believe women should wait and ask their husbands and this is what Paul is basically saying.

This is the final word from God, there are no new revelations concerning this. As much as some would love to change the word to fit culture especially feminist theological themes... and the sway it has had in Christian thought (and that's not even considering secular thought) verse 36 answers this.

 

[brmicke]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Juallianna - Since you seem to take my position on this issue (or more appropriately (IMO) we both take God's) I have a question for you. Without any bias please give us your opinion as a women.

1. Do you think it is more effective in bringing out true feminine characteristics when a Women is submissive to God's word (as we understand it) in this matter?

As I have observed the feminist attitude of challenging male authority it seems to cultivate in a wife/woman a continual state of angst, as she tries to maintain an attitude that demeans/demoralizes and challenges male authority at every opportunity.

2. If we are to be honest as Christians the situation that brings us the most en"Joy"ment and "Peace" (Rm 14:17), in our respective male/female roles should be the goal, as it is a given that God wants us to be happy and content. Do you regard this submission to male authority to be a chore and a demeaning endeavor, or do you regard it as "obedience" to God's word and a fulfillment of your femininity?

2. Does this interpretation of God's word make you feel content as a women?

I feel that it is truly God you are submitting to (if our premise is correct). I should qualify this by saying that subordination to male authority is superfluous because submission to the word of God must take precedence in every case.

3. Most Men find that when their innate masculinity is not challenged but complimented by a wonderful woman it is extremely attractive. Your husband (if you have one) is extraordinarily blessed in this regard.

It is truly not understood that God places the heaviest burden upon the masculine role. The wife is commanded to "respect" Her husband. The Husband however is required to "give His life" for His wife, Eph 5:21-33 .

21 ¶ Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and (husband's commandment) - gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;
33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she (wife's commandment) - respects her husband.

Respectfully - Brian