Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.

[espresso]

You will indeed stand before God and give an account as to why you ignore His truth and teach lies to His flock

Watchmen I find your posts more than a little disheartening and your less than Christ like tone makes me question the validity of your statements as they feel far from being spirit led. You speak as if your interpretation of scripture is absolute and suggest that anyone with a differing interpretation is wrong and will be judged.

While I believe in a pre-trib rapture for many reasons I understand that there is much room for debate and that there is the possibility I am wrong. I would never be so arrogant as to say that my interpretation is the only truth and anyone who disagrees with me will be judged.

In one of your posts you say God has instructed you to do this and take a stand, but did he tell you to be unkind, unloving, condescending, and judgmental?

You damage your credibility with words and actions like this.

 

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by watchmen

You will indeed stand before God and give an account as to why you ignore His truth and teach lies to His flock

Watchmen I find your posts more than a little disheartening and your less than Christ like tone makes me question the validity of your statements as they feel far from being spirit led. You speak as if your interpretation of scripture is absolute and suggest that anyone with a differing interpretation is wrong and will be judged.

While I believe in a pre-trib rapture for many reasons I understand that there is much room for debate and that there is the possibility I am wrong. I would never be so arrogant as to say that my interpretation is the only truth and anyone who disagrees with me will be judged.

In one of your posts you say God has instructed you to do this and take a stand, but did he tell you to be unkind, unloving, condescending, and judgmental?

You damage your credibility with words and actions like this.

Actually you mis understand my post. Being a pretribber will not cause you to be judged. However Thaddaeus is a pastor therefor ehe is resoponsable for those under him. The truth has been given to him and he ignored it, and worse than that he teaches fallacy to his flock. We all have to stand before God and give an account for our actions, and Thaddaeus will have to answer to God for his as well.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2nd Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.


So not only have you misunderstood my tone, but you have called me unkind, unloving, condesending, and judgmental for speaking the truth.
#1 We will all stand before God and give and account.
#2 Pastors/Teachers will have to answer for not only themselves but what they taught other receiving greater or stricter judgment.
Scripture declares this and I have simply said what scripture says.

So you being a pretribber you can take offense I would expect nothing less. However I have stated nothing but the truth of scripture to Thaddaeus and anyone else that false teaches the pretrib rapture to their congegation after being told the truth.


P.S. Christ too was ridiculed for the truth He spoke. The servant is not above His Master, so I expect it.

Thank for the blessing.

 

[watchmen]

True, there will be Tribulation saints but not the church. The tribulation saints will be those who come to Christ after the rapture. But the Holy Spirit will not be present at that time because the Church will be raptured.



Since you don't believe the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, who else or what could it be?

It is impossibkle for anyone to come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit is here to draw them. So once again your dactrine is false. Just read the scriptures and accept what they say. Instead of inventing all types of false doctrine to support your false belief of the pretrib rapture.

 

[espresso]

So you being a pretribber you can take offense I would expect nothing less. However I have stated nothing but the truth of scripture to Thaddaeus and anyone else that false teaches the pretrib rapture to their congegation after being told the truth.


P.S. Christ too was ridiculed for the truth He spoke. The servant is not above His Master, so I expect it.

Thank for the blessing.

There is the arrogance part again, suggesting that the criticism you receive here somehow equates to suffering for Christ, and then "thanking people for the blessing" because you feel you are being persecuted for standing up for Christ. Give me a break. Have you considered that maybe the criticism is justified not because of your belief, but rather the way in which you share your belief? I don’t recall Jesus talking down to others the way you have here.

 

[watchmen]

There is the arrogance part again, suggesting that the criticism you receive here somehow equates to suffering for Christ, and then "thanking people for the blessing" because you feel you are being persecuted for standing up for Christ. Give me a break. Have you considered that maybe the criticism is justified not because of your belief, but rather the way in which you share your belief? I don’t recall Jesus talking down to others the way you have here.

First of all I am standing of for the truth, and Jesus said He was the truth. Secondly I gave ample scripture to prove why I believe what I believe. Further more your attack on me for telling Thaddaeus he was going to have to give an account before God was unwarrented as I also proved with scripture. Finally I have been comissioned by God to teach the post trib rapture, and I knew that would come with persacution from thos ethat love their false doctrine more than truth. Lastly lets see if Jesus ever spoke less than kindly to those that oppsed the truth.

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the ****ation of hell?

I am sure if He had posted this on these boards you would have siomething say to Him about not being Christlike huh?

 

[MahogonySnail]

True, there will be Tribulation saints but not the church. The tribulation saints will be those who come to Christ after the rapture. But the Holy Spirit will not be present at that time because the Church will be raptured.

Starfield, I respect your freedom to believe whatever you will, but you have been duped (too much Left Behind movies?) I will just point out a few logical flaws in these statements of yours.

You suppose that
a) tribulation saints will come to Christ after the rapture
b) the Holy Spirit will not be present at the time, nor the Church.


Now , we already know from the bible , that to get salvations in a), you need both the Holy Spirit and the Church in b). So your scenario is flawed and impossible. Without the Holy Spirit nor the Church on the earth, no one is going to be converting to Christ . The idea of hardcore unbelievers and sinners coming to their sense and being regenerated on their own , is impossible without the Holy Spirit (who both convicts, draws, and regenerates) and without the Church (the word which is preached).
Therefore, tribulation saints mentioned must be christians already saved before the tribulation began. Or, you could admit that the Holy Spirit and the church will be present on the earth during the tribulation. Either way your argument is lost.

 

[broken]

I am sad to see all the chaos this thread has inspired. I specifically asked watchmen to post this thread as I've never seen scriptures that defend the post-trib position.

My depest apologies are extended to the entire community. My intention was not to propogate division but to educate myself. In the future, I'll just buy a book on the topic.

As for me, I've been reexamining my doctrine to test it against the scriptures as much of what i've believed has been founded on what people have told me to believe. Pre/mid/post-trib is another of those issues for me.

It sadens my soul that we cannot share or intellectually debate scripture without resorting to questioning eachother's salvation and status as 'true' or 'false' christians.



God bless.

 

[watchmen]

I am sad to see all the chaos this thread has inspired. I specifically asked watchmen to post this thread as I've never seen scriptures that defend the post-trib position.

My depest apologies are extended to the entire community. My intention was not to propogate division but to educate myself. In the future, I'll just buy a book on the topic.

As for me, I've been reexamining my doctrine to test it against the scriptures as much of what i've believed has been founded on what people have told me to believe. Pre/mid/post-trib is another of those issues for me.

It sadens my soul that we cannot share or intellectually debate scripture without resorting to questioning eachother's salvation and status as 'true' or 'false' christians.



God bless.

Broken it isn't your fault at all. I explained in the O.P. that this was not a debate thread but that I had posted these scriptures for someone who had asked me to. I didn't give your name because it shouldn't matter who asked me. The fault of the division in this thread lies solely on the pretribbers that could not respect the O.P. to not turn this into a debate thread. I tried to start another thread as well since this one had desinigrated into an argument, but of course they could not respect that thread for what it was meant to be either. It isd truly sad that we cannot have a discussion without the interferance of those that just want to argue.


Broken did you atleast read through the first four post those are the only ones that really mattered. It proves the post trib rapture without any rebutal. The only rebutal is that they just refuse to believe scripture.

 

[starfield]

It is impossibkle for anyone to come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit is here to draw them. So once again your dactrine is false. Just read the scriptures and accept what they say. Instead of inventing all types of false doctrine to support your false belief of the pretrib rapture.

You did not answer my question about who restrains the man of lawlessness if not the Holy Spirit. lol
The Old Testament believers were not preserved by the Holy Spirit, so why can’t it be the same for the tribulation believers? He will not dwell in them as He did during the Church age, His work will be limited.

 

[Jsquared]

So what did the Holy Spirit, one of the three persons of the Holy Trinity, do in the old testament? Twiddle his thumbs?

 

[watchmen]

You did not answer my question about who restrains the man of lawlessness if not the Holy Spirit. lol
The Old Testament believers were not preserved by the Holy Spirit, so why can’t it be the same for the tribulation believers? He will not dwell in them as He did during the Church age, His work will be limited.

Of course it was the Holy Spirit that perserved the O.T. saints. as David wrote in the Psalms.

Psalms 51
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

 

[Lauren]

If we know all about the first coming of Christ, which is glorious, should we not also know everything about the second coming which is more glorious (1Jn 3:2,3, 2Cor 3:7-18)? Why do you and others think otherwise and consider His second coming as non-essential? The second coming of Christ is what every believer is looking unto, the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2). ​

I did not say that his second coming was non-essential, only non-essential to the state of my salvation. No one could look forward to His coming back more than I do. This world is dead for me; it holds nothing. But I have been put in a humbling position of having a pretty severe memory retention problem for most of my life (I often have to call my best friend when I need to ask her something from my past because everything beyond a week or so is a blank). For me to try to study the issue out myself would be darn near impossible. So I am left with other people's interpretations, or **gasp!** just being content not knowing until the time comes.

Sometimes a lack of memory can be frustrating, as I'd love to be able to just summon up any scripture from memory as I please, but it has also forced me to focus on only the things that I truly need to know.

 

[become_the_generation]

My stand on this is that we don't know which way its going to happen. There are scriptures going both ways. The enemy uses these kind of arguments to cause division in the church, which is wrong. My stand is that it might happen either way, but no matter what, just be ready for it. Just be prepared. Cause thats all that counts. Why does it really matter what we think anyways? Pretty sure God isnt gonna ask us which way He should do it.

 

[watchmen]

My stand on this is that we don't know which way its going to happen. There are scriptures going both ways. The enemy uses these kind of arguments to cause division in the church, which is wrong. My stand is that it might happen either way, but no matter what, just be ready for it. Just be prepared. Cause thats all that counts. Why does it really matter what we think anyways? Pretty sure God isnt gonna ask us which way He should do it.

The thing is scripture does not go both ways, scripture clearly teaches post trib it is not ambiguous at all. Why does it matter two reasons
#1 God wants us to know the truth.
#2 Pretribbers believe that they are not going to have to endure the tribulation so they are not preparing their mind, or hearts for the tribulation, and when the tribulation starts they may even turn on God believing He has broken His promise to take them out. The thing is He has never made that promise and is under no obligation to keep it.

It is very needful that we study God's word with an open heart willing to accept whatever it teaches. Rather than holding fast to beliefs that God's word can easily prove wrong.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Believing falsehood on one idea such as the rapture, makes your mind susceptible and your brain mushy to believing and receiving other false doctrines. If you watch left behind movies, let alone enoy them, you be better with watching Harry Potter - Harry Potter would probably have more biblical truths and not to mention good actors and movie production unlike the left behind series.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Ever wonder why you have so much trouble trying to get a pre-trib rapture out of the bible? When I believed in it I had so much trouble, you have to split chapters here and add in bits from another chapter there, just to make it all work out. And you pre-tribbers wouldn't even know how to do that on your own without your websites telling you how to do it. But then I realised the complexity in trying to prove such an idea is probably because it isn't actually in scripture there at all. The pre-trib rapture is defeated even based upon Occam's razor alone.

 

[watchmen]

Believing falsehood on one idea such as the rapture, makes your mind susceptible and your brain mushy to believing and receiving other false doctrines. If you watch left behind movies, let alone enoy them, you be better with watching Harry Potter - Harry Potter would probably have more biblical truths and not to mention good actors and movie production unlike the left behind series.

Ever wonder why you have so much trouble trying to get a pre-trib rapture out of the bible? When I believed in it I had so much trouble, you have to split chapters here and add in bits from another chapter there, just to make it all work out. And you pre-tribbers wouldn't even know how to do that on your own without your websites telling you how to do it. But then I realised the complexity in trying to prove such an idea is probably because it isn't actually in scripture there at all. The pre-trib rapture is defeated even based upon Occam's razor alone.

Very true Mahogony,
I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible. Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both. God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just, as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming. It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and that the rapture comes after the resurrection. Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day. We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.
So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.
Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.

 

[sisterren11492]

In the future, I'll just buy a book on the topic.

You don't have to buy another book, you can find all the scriptures that prove the post-trib right in the Word of God as watchmen posted above for you. God bless.

 

[tincanstilts]

the being kept from the hour of temptation set on all the earth does not mean you are going to be raptured. There is no rapture. it comes from hell. the bible does not say you will be raptured off the face of the earth just so you dont have to go through the great tribulation he warned you was coming. when tribulation ......comes and you are still here you will remember how the preacher told you you where going to be raptured before anything bad happens. were there no christians in hatti that thought they would be raptured before anything bad happens? those who believe they are going to be raptured are heading for dissapointment when they see everything happen before them and say i was supposed to be raptured before anything like this would happen. the rapture is a lie from the devil

 

[truenorth]

+1 here. I'm a former pretrib believer. I am now convinced the church will go through the tribulation, something that is the clear teaching of scripture.