Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#61
Let’s keep assuming that Paul is talking about a real angelic language here. Are there any examples in the bible where an angel spoke and the person they were speaking to didn’t understand them? Just one example will do.
No, but there is one verse in I Corinthians 13 that mentions the possibility of tongues of angels. So we should allow for the possibility that such things exist.

And the only defense would be that it’s because the angels were speaking their language with love, therefore they were understood.
I don't get your point. People can speak hateful words and be understood. Your argument doesn't make sense.

Let’s take this defense to its logical conclusion. If the angels that appeared and spoke to men and women in the bible were speaking a heavenly language out of love and were understood by it, what does this make glossolalia since it cannot be understood by anyone today.
Your argument doesn't make sense.

The first conclusion is that not one of the modern day tongues speakers are speaking out of love. The second conclusion is that if they really are speaking an angelic language and are not being understood because of a lack of love, it’s more likely that the language they are speaking is demonic.
Your argument is nonsensical and it doesn't support your conclusion.

Paul goes on in verses 2 and 3 to say if someone has all knowledge and understanding, faith enough to move mountains, or is delivering themselves up to be burned, but they don’t have love, then it’s all in vain. As far as I know, no one has all knowledge as God is the only omniscient being. No one is moving mountains because of their faith. No one is delivering themselves up to be burned, especially not without love, or it wouldn’t be possible.
The tongues of angel scenario was also without love in Paul's example, so the issue is whether it is possible to give oneself to be burned, not whether one can do so without love. People commit suicide in numerous ways, and people give their lives for causes sometimes, even non-Christian causes. It is possible to give oneself to be burned.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#62
No, but there is one verse in I Corinthians 13 that mentions the possibility of tongues of angels. So we should allow for the possibility that such things exist.



I don't get your point. People can speak hateful words and be understood. Your argument doesn't make sense.



Your argument doesn't make sense.



Your argument is nonsensical and it doesn't support your conclusion.



The tongues of angel scenario was also without love in Paul's example, so the issue is whether it is possible to give oneself to be burned, not whether one can do so without love. People commit suicide in numerous ways, and people give their lives for causes sometimes, even non-Christian causes. It is possible to give oneself to be burned.
do people move mountains with their minds and know all things? because if one from these verses are true, then the rest must be true. or they can all be taken in context as exaggerations as Paul meant them to be taken to stress his point of love above all.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#63
Yes, I was in Bible quiz and could quote it straight through at one point, in the KJV. I am still quite familiar with it and occasionally, I can quote parts of it.
Wonderful then you do have some familiarity with chapter one where Paul clearly says that God not man has chosen preaching as the method through which He will minister the gospel to men.
No I haven't, but the way you apply this makes me suspect your interpretation of the verse comes more from tradition than what it actually says. Do you think 'preach' means to speak (maybe loudly) at Christians from behind a pulpit? There are different words translated 'preach', but usually when the word shows up in translations of the New Testament, it has to do with proclaiming the Gospel to unbelievers. It is what Paul did in the synagogues and marketplaces. The apostles taught believers, and preached to unbelievers. There are some exceptions you can find, like where the KJV translates the word from which we get 'dialogue' as 'preached' in Acts 20:7.

But look at the context-- the foolishness of preaching saved them that believe, and several verses later, Paul, talking about the past when he first met the Corinthians, did not speak to them with man's wisdom, knew nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified, though he would speak spiritual wisdom among them that are perfect.
You just don't like the preaching of Gods word. You are just not going to accept it at face value. That speaks volumes.
The foolishness of preaching saving them that believes sounds like it has to do with evangelism to me. Church meetings are primarily for the edification of the church. If an uninstructed person or unbeliever comes in, he might recieve ministry. (Notice in chapter 14, IF, IF, such a person enters-- the meetings are primarily for the saints.) But even in that example, the man responds by saying that God is truly among them after 'all prophesy.'
Evangelism is the primary purpose of every born again believer. Discipleship is the second purpose of every believer. First to become a disciple through study of Gods word then to teach others.
I suspect there may be a false dichotomy behind your post, as if we should go with 'preaching' rather than doing what I Corinthians 14 says. But I suspect your idea of 'preaching' is not what Paul is talking about here. I suspect you think of teaching scripture to Christians from behind a pulpit, rather than proclaiming the Gospel to those who have not believed in it yet.
Now that's funny a false dichotomy behind my post. Funny because it comes from you after what you have postulated in this thread. Funny in an ironic fashion not humorous manner.
Jesus said in John 4:48
"So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” "

Acts 9
34 “Aeneas,” Peter said to him, “Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and roll up your mat.” Immediately Aeneas got up. 35 All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.
(NIV)

and

40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. 41 He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called for the believers, especially the widows, and presented her to them alive. 42 This became known all over Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord.
(NIV)

Sergius Paulus believed when he saw Elymas blinded.

Acts 13
12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
(NIV)


Preaching and doing miracles were very much intertwined in the ministry of Christ and the apostles in scripture. I don't know how people would get saved from seeing miracles without hearing the Gospel, but it would be inaccurate to say that miracles have nothing to do with people believing.
Yet they would not receive Christ as their Messiah though He raised the dead and made the lame to walk. What did the people say of Christ? Never a man spoke like this man. The people came out and listened for hours as He opened the scriptures to them. People will still gather today to see miracles but their interest is not spiritual. They seek to be entertained not enlightened.
So what? Does that mean we disregard the Lord's commands in I Corinthians 14?
You misunderstand what is being taught in 1 Cor 14.
You make an application of Isaiah that Paul does not when he quotes him in I Corinthians 14. But be that as it may, there are still Jews.
Israel is blinded for now until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled but that has nothing to do with tongues in the present church.
We are still waiting for the promises in Romans 11 for unbelieving Israel, the one's Paul describes as enemies for your sake's but beloved for the sake's of the fathers, to be saved.
Perhaps for another thread. That however makes no basis for tongues in the present church.
There is one problem I can see with that idea. The Bible doesn't each that. It does talk about this mindset though, when it warns people who say the natural branches off that they might take their place that God can also remove the one who says such things. See Romans 11.
More distraction that does not support your position.
Perhaps if ministers were more knowledgeable of the scriptures, ministries would be more Bible centered rather than pulpit centered.
This is important. If you do not have a man knowledgeable in the scriptures then it is because you have not sought one from God. Eph 4:11 says that God gifts such men to the church. God also has warned that men will not endure sound doctrine but heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. You have the kind of ministers you want.
A pulpit is a piece of furniture. It's not even mentioned in the Bible. Jesus sat down when He spoke in the synagogue in Nazareth.

I'm not against having a nice solid Bible stand to put my Bible on. That's a blessing. But it is silly to make a piece of furniture that is not even mentioned in the Bible into something holy and irreplaceable. They used to meet in houses. I suppose someone might have had a lectern. James mentions not telling people to tell the poor to sit under their footstool in their 'synagogue.' I Corinthians mentions the table of the Lord. Otherwise, I can't think of anywhere the New Testament mentions anything about furniture in church.
You really have a problem with pulpits and preaching Gods word to the congregation when assembled together. Clear out the furniture and bring in the band. Make room for dancing and revelry in Gods house? But I digress.
I Corinthians has 'every one of you' speaking, and if everyone has to walk up to a pulpit that can eat up a lot of time, and may disrupt the flow of prophecies.
Are you a saved man? Do you know that if you died right now you would go to heaven? If so can you give a biblical reason for your hope of eternal life?

The Lord told Peter three times to feed the sheep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#64
Based on what authority can you pontificate with absolute certainty that this must be hyperbole?
Not my own, that's for sure.


Why would tongues of angels be impossible if the other things listed in the passage are possible?
What you're trying to do is take figures of speech, metaphors, similes, etc, and turn them into something they're not. That's why it's not a passage you can use. You're grasping at straw, and there would be better verses for you to argue from, that would be easier for you to defend but you don't know much about the matter, just what you've been told to regurgitate when the discussion arises.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#65
We exhort one another through the bible. Have you read all of 1 Corinthians? Perhaps you glossed over the part where Paul states that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save the lost. The foolishness of preaching the cross.

Tongues and miracles do not result in faith. Faith comes from hearing through preaching of the word of God. Christ preached to Israel from the scriptures. We have no record of Christ speaking in tongues. Tongues through out the history of Israel has been one of tongues being a sign of impending judgment. The evidence of tongues at Pentacost is one of judgment on Judiasm. The old now done away and the new established. The Gentiles speaking tongues in Acts again as a sign of the blessing intended for Israel no passing to the Gentiles.

Perhaps if there were more pulpit centered ministries there would be less ignorance of the scriptures in the church today. Fewer prophets who are confounded by the prophets and more bible Christ centered doctrine and we would see holiness and purity in the church today. What would we have if hearts were moved by bible preaching instead of rock and roll music? Be still and know that I AM the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
(RED) I'm beginning to wonder if you even read your bible. 1. There are no messages of tongues in the old testament.
2. The tongues of Pentecost was not about judgment at all....sheesh.
3. The Gentiles speaking tongues in Acts was what? Man, read the book before you get on here. Did you think you could actually get by with spewing that garbage and nobody would notice? Are you trying to set my friend up?

(BLUE) 1. There were no pulpits until the RCC. The Apostle Paul preached and taught in houses. He didn't need a pulpit.
2. True prophets speak the heart of God and agrees with scripture. Again, you don't know.
3. Rock and roll music? There's no rock and roll in my church.

It seems what we have here is someone regurgitating what they have been told by people preaching and teaching the traditions of men. You need to quit critiquing others & study for yourself with a humble heart and an open mind to God.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#66
In Acts chapter 2, God's Holy Spirit was given, to allow all the people there, no matter the language barrier , to be able to understand Peter and the rest; The many wonderful works of God.. Did you notice, there is NO word UNKNOWN , in Acts chapter 2 in connection to God's Gift of His Spirit in Acts 2 .

The Scriptures do not state to speak in an UNKNOWN tongue , but that they would speak in OTHER tongues (i.e., other languages). This was a gift for communicating the Gospel to peoples of other languages ..Note, there is NO need of a interpreter with God as written there.
I seem to see another person picking and choosing their favored scriptures instead of studying all scriptures that have context to teach on a subject.
Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.


What about these scriptures? Who in these groups needed to hear their own language? In both texts, all the people present spoke Greek. For crying out loud, the apostles were speaking directly to them! Yet, the entire group of each spoke in tongues.


When you want to prove a point, read the whole book. Sheesh!


What is happening in the churches today is so far removed from the Scriptures that one could only suspect demonic influences. Stop babbling, it is not of God !
You ought to be careful. Blaspheming The Holy Spirit is a sin, ignorance or not.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#67
I'd like to see presidente do it too.
Since when are you so special that the Holy Spirit should speak through presidente for your personal pleasure? Those gifts are for the edification of the body of Christ. God is not going onstage to play just for you. You should know better.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#68
I disagree with the pentecostal/charismatic's perversion of those Scriptures.
If you knew what you were talking about, you would know there's a difference between Pentecostals and charismatics. Again another person regurgitating what they have heard in their church or on the Internet.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#69
Since when are you so special that the Holy Spirit should speak through presidente for your personal pleasure? Those gifts are for the edification of the body of Christ. God is not going onstage to play just for you. You should know better.
The belief is that the person can do it on command, you know, like when they de-lent the carpet.

The problem you have, is the same as the rest. You don't understand scripture.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#70
The belief is that the person can do it on command, you know, like when they de-lent the carpet.

The problem you have, is the same as the rest. You don't understand scripture.
Acts 2:4 (KJV) 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


No, the problem you have is you don't even read scripture that's been posted on here several times. That & you judge people according to your personal preferences instead of scripture. Maybe it's not the rest. Maybe it's you
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#71
(RED) I'm beginning to wonder if you even read your bible. 1. There are no messages of tongues in the old testament.
2. The tongues of Pentecost was not about judgment at all....sheesh.
3. The Gentiles speaking tongues in Acts was what? Man, read the book before you get on here. Did you think you could actually get by with spewing that garbage and nobody would notice? Are you trying to set my friend up?

(BLUE) 1. There were no pulpits until the RCC. The Apostle Paul preached and taught in houses. He didn't need a pulpit.
2. True prophets speak the heart of God and agrees with scripture. Again, you don't know.
3. Rock and roll music? There's no rock and roll in my church.

It seems what we have here is someone regurgitating what they have been told by people preaching and teaching the traditions of men. You need to quit critiquing others & study for yourself with a humble heart and an open mind to God.
If one looks at the history of Israel and the judgments that God brought upon them through captivity you would see that the invading nations spoke languages that were not understood by the Israelites. Those present when Jesus walked on this earth would have been very aware of that information. The tower of Babel was simply judgment upon men for their sin. I understand your problem and I am not unsympathetic to your plight but there is simply no circumstances where tongues are anything but a sign to Jews of impending judgment. The only present use of tongues in the church would be in presenting the gospel to someone who cannot understand the native language of the preacher. Here an interpreter is required so we have a witness to what was communicated.

You have what you want. There are no prophets today in the sense that Israel had prophets sent from God. There is no new revelation. God's special revelation His word is complete. This is why the prophets who are preachers must agree with the prophets who came before them. God gifted men able to preach and shepherd the flock which is the NT church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#72
If one looks at the history of Israel and the judgments that God brought upon them through captivity you would see that the invading nations spoke languages that were not understood by the Israelites. Those present when Jesus walked on this earth would have been very aware of that information. The tower of Babel was simply judgment upon men for their sin. I understand your problem and I am not unsympathetic to your plight but there is simply no circumstances where tongues are anything but a sign to Jews of impending judgment. The only present use of tongues in the church would be in presenting the gospel to someone who cannot understand the native language of the preacher. Here an interpreter is required so we have a witness to what was communicated.

You have what you want. There are no prophets today in the sense that Israel had prophets sent from God. There is no new revelation. God's special revelation His word is complete. This is why the prophets who are preachers must agree with the prophets who came before them. God gifted men able to preach and shepherd the flock which is the NT church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
(BLACK)Acts 2:8-11 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? [SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, [SUP]11 [/SUP]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The wonderful works of God isn't judgement on Israel.
[HR][/HR]Acts 10:44-46 (KJV) [SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Magnifying God isn't judging Israel
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Edification isn't judgement on Israel



(BLUE)
I seem to see another person picking and choosing their favored scriptures instead of studying all scriptures that have context to teach on a subject.
Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

What about these scriptures? Who in these groups needed to hear their own language? In both texts, all the people present spoke Greek. For crying out loud, the apostles were speaking directly to them! Yet, the entire group of each spoke in tongues.

When you want to prove a point, read the whole book. Sheesh!
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#73
Stephen63;I seem to see another person picking and choosing their favored scriptures instead of studying all scriptures that have context to teach on a subject






To: Stephen63 - I'm, not careful to answer in this way. the babble that people speak and try to pass it off as the true Gift is a lie. Acts 2 documents what it was for and what happened in detail . Regardless if your given that level of detail in Acts 19:1-7 .

Acts two establishes it all together what is the purpose . And No were, is it written, that what they spoke was unknown or confusion. Your trying to add something, that is not there...

If people are going to defend something that is Not written, at least use scripture . And not try to read something, and say it says something else.
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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#74
To: Stephen63 - I'm, not careful to answer in this way. the babble that people speak and try to pass it off as the true Gift is a lie. Acts 2 documents what it was for and what happened in detail . Regardless if your given that level of detail in Acts 19:1-7 .

Acts two establishes it all together what is the purpose . And No were, is it written, that what they spoke was unknown or confusion. Your trying to add something, that is not there...

If people are going to defend something that is Not written, at least use scripture . And not try to read something, and say it says something else.

Originally Posted by nathan3

In Acts chapter 2, God's Holy Spirit was given, to allow all the people there, no matter the language barrier , to be able to understand Peter and the rest; The many wonderful works of God.. Did you notice, there is NO word UNKNOWN , in Acts chapter 2 in connection to God's Gift of His Spirit in Acts 2 .

The Scriptures do not state to speak in an UNKNOWN tongue , but that they would speak in OTHER tongues (i.e., other languages). This was a gift for communicating the Gospel to peoples of other languages ..Note, there is NO need of a interpreter with God as written there.



I seem to see another person picking and choosing their favored scriptures instead of studying all scriptures that have context to teach on a subject.
Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

What about these scriptures? Who in these groups needed to hear their own language? In both texts, all the people present spoke Greek. For crying out loud, the apostles were speaking directly to them! Yet, the entire group of each spoke in tongues.

When you want to prove a point, read the whole book. Sheesh!

You ought to be careful. Blaspheming The Holy Spirit is a sin, ignorance or not.
Gee..... I thought I already did post scripture. BTW, that scripture speaks for itself.

Since you're not careful in saying what you did........ so be it unto you as you have done it.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#75
do people move mountains with their minds and know all things?
The passage does not talk about moving mountains with your mind. It says has all faith so that he can remove mountains. Do you believe Jesus was telling the truth in this passage?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.



Now whether you take that as literally moving mountains or some kind of metaphor, how can you say you believe Jesus, and then deny that moving mountains with faith is impossible? However it is meant in scripture, it is possible.

I don't see how someone can have all knowledge in this age considering what Paul write later, but the other things in the list are possible, moving mountains, giving oneself to be burned, giving all to the poor. So how can you say emphatically that speaking in tongues of angels is impossible? Based on what? You should at least allow for the possibility.

Now it would not make sense for someone to say that all speaking in tongues is the tongues of angels and use that as a reason why a whole church is just repeating one syllable when they allegedly 'speak in tongues.' The verse also says speak in the tongues of men, and that was what was going on in Acts. But we should allow for the possibility. I think people deny the tongues of angels possibility because they have an ax to grind, and tongues of angels puts a monkey wrench in some of their arguments.

because if one from these verses are true, then the rest must be true. or they can all be taken in context as exaggerations as Paul meant them to be taken to stress his point of love above all.
A list of extreme things, almost all of which are possible.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#76
Gee..... I thought I already did post scripture. BTW, that scripture speaks for itself.

Since you're not careful in saying what you did........ so be it unto you as you have done it.

Are you for people speaking in the babble ? If so, the scripture you posted does not give anyone room to act that way. You just read it was understandable to all languages present .

When some one, stands up, and babbles, and claims its a gift, that is a lie. And if some one stands up, and claims to interpret that babble, it is a lie.

The gift, was, that everyone could understand.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#77
Wonderful then you do have some familiarity with chapter one where Paul clearly says that God not man has chosen preaching as the method through which He will minister the gospel to men.

You just don't like the preaching of Gods word. You are just not going to accept it at face value. That speaks volumes.
You slander me. You know nothing about me. I like 'preaching', even in the way you mean the word. If I'm doing it, I'd like to have a couple of hours sometimes. But when I read what the Bible says to do in church, it says, 'every one of you hath a doctrine'. Multiple people taught in church. It wasn't just one long sermon. Some people think 'preach' means talk loud and enthusiastic and teach means talk quiet. There is a lot of ignorance on what 'preach' means. I suggest before you stop spouting off about it, you do a word study, even just looking up how the word is used in the KJV or some other translation. Then look at the words that are translated as 'preach.' Remember when Paul is talking about his past preaching, remember his ministry. He traveled from place to place evangelizing people who haven't heard the Gospel. He did not stay in most of these churches for years. He did not stay there in a pulpit year after year doing what we think of as modern 'preaching.' So when you read the epistles saying he preached Christ to a church, think of what he did in Acts. Read what 'preach' means in contexts in Acts. In some places, words are translated as 'proclaim'.

It seems to me that it is likely that you've heard so much 'preaching' about the importance of preaching, and you have taken your modern experience with what is called 'preaching' and held your tradition up as something sacred to the extent that when you encounter ideas like this, you won't even allow yourself to consider whether you need to search the scriptures on the issue.

I am in favor of preaching and teaching. Typically with believers it's teaching, though unbelievers can receive teaching as well. The real question is who does it and how many mouths it comes out of in a church meeting. Paul uses the phrase 'every one of you' while many moderns would say 'the pastor.'

Are you saying that people get saved by hearing sermons every week? So would you condemn the person arrested for doing one on one evangelism who spends years in a foreign jail as unsaved because he missed a lot of Sunday sermons there in the jail cell?

If 'preached' refers to delivering a 45 minute oration behind a wooden box in a church building, would you say that those who put their faith in Christ after hearing the Gospel proclaimed to them by an individual talking in a normal tone of voice one on one on a street corner isn't really saved, because he did not get saved from hearing the long formal sermon in a church building?

What about your own soul? Are you putting your faith in hearing long orations week after week for salvation? Is that really how you want to interpret that verse about the foolishness of preaching saving them that believe?


Evangelism is the primary purpose of every born again believer. Discipleship is the second purpose of every believer. First to become a disciple through study of Gods word then to teach others.
It's great that you emphasize evangelism, but what is your Biblical support for something like that? I'd try to get some specific scripture in mind before saying something like that. The Bible says all things are created for God's pleasure, so we might propose that the primary purpose of a believer is to please God. Or we could it is God's will that we be conformed to the image of Christ and try to argue that that is our primary purpose. There is also the purpose of finding a bride for God's Son. And another eternal purpose is for God to display His wisdom to principalities and powers through the church. I can't see how one can argue that one is the 'primary purpose' from what is stated though in such a way as to prove off the top of my head. But saying evangelism is the primary purpose could be very man-centered, so concerned with man's salvation in our way of doing things that we lose sight of the goals God has in regard to His Son.

If your emphasis as an individual is on being conformed to the image of Christ, then that does not neglect the importance of community in the church and personal holiness. If you think evangelism and then teaching others the word are the main goals, then you can lose sight of these other things that are also important in God's will.

Now that's funny a false dichotomy behind my post. Funny because it comes from you after what you have postulated in this thread. Funny in an ironic fashion not humorous manner.
My postulations in this thread are backed up by some specific verses in the OP. I find it interesting that you do not address these specific arguments, these specific scriptures and what they actually say, but you still able to post quite a bit.

Yet they would not receive Christ as their Messiah though He raised the dead and made the lame to walk. What did the people say of Christ? Never a man spoke like this man. The people came out and listened for hours as He opened the scriptures to them. People will still gather today to see miracles but their interest is not spiritual. They seek to be entertained not enlightened.
An interest in miracles could be sincere. Some people did believe when they saw miracles. Did all those people in Israel believe when Jesus preached to them? No, lots of them did not. Did the Pharisees and Saducees all follow Jesus after hearing Him preach? No. But does that mean that preaching doesn't produce faith? No. It just means some people have hard hearts. Some people believed when they saw miracles. What did they believe? The preaching. Other people saw miracles and did not believe.

Israel is blinded for now until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled but that has nothing to do with tongues in the present church.
Your postulations about Israel based on Paul's quote of Isaiah require you to make a lot of unsupported leaps of reasoning not supported by any text of scripture. It doesn't even match the point Paul makes in the passage after quoting Isaiah. Doesn't it bother you that your view is based on elaborate unsupported elaborate reasoning which leads you to argue against obeying the very direct commands written in the passage? I would find that troublesome if I were you.

If you think that Israel is still in unbelief now, that's all the more argument to see tongues as a sign that continues until they repent. Paul writes to the Corinthians of coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is important. If you do not have a man knowledgeable in the scriptures then it is because you have not sought one from God.
The church I got to know is more pulpit-centered than I am. But the issue is the word of God, not some piece of furniture. If you equate the pulpit with the Bible, that's your problem. Where does the Bible mention a pulpit? Ezra used a platform once, but where is the pulpit? I'm not anti-pulpit, but I suspect most Christian Grecco-Roman homes did not have them when those churches we read about in the epistles were starting out.

The author of Hebrews write, 'for when for the time ye ought to be teachers.' What I see in I Corinthians 14 are that the church is to have meetings where the brethren take turns speaking and singing to edify the congregation. Paul says of this 'let all things be done unto edifying' and later warns that his instructions are the commandments of the Lord. What do you base all of your opinions about preaching and how it should be done on?


Eph 4:11 says that God gifts such men to the church. God also has warned that men will not endure sound doctrine but heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.
That's the verse that talks about the Lord giving gifts like apostles and prophets, too. Some people won't endure that doctrine these days.

You really have a problem with pulpits and preaching Gods word to the congregation when assembled together. Clear out the furniture and bring in the band. Make room for dancing and revelry in Gods house? But I digress.
There is plenty about dancing and orchestras or bands or whatever you want to call them in the Old Testament. I don't see emphasis on this in the New Testament. Church meetings can be had with the furniture in place. You may need to move a couch or chairs or something so people can see those who are speaking. But no furniture is necessary. You seem to be the one fixated on furniture not mentioned in scripture that became more popular long after the twelve apostles died. If some of those Jerusalem meetings were held in synagogues, maybe they had a lectern, but if Jesus followed custom rather than going against it when he sat teaching in the synagogue, maybe they did not.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#78
Are you for people speaking in the babble ? If so, the scripture you posted does not give anyone room to act that way. You just read it was understandable to all languages present .

When some one, stands up, and babbles, and claims its a gift, that is a lie. And if some one stands up, and claims to interpret that babble, it is a lie.

The gift, was, that everyone could understand.
What a spin! I just showed you two major scriptures where everybody knew the same language speaking in tongues, and you spun it in reverse!
Have you been drafted by the wolfpack?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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#79
Sounds a lot like what the Pharisees said to Jesus.

I speak in tongues, I know what it is.

If you don't speak in tongues, who are you to tell those who do what it is?

You can twist Greek words to fit all you want, but Paul is clear.

1. He spoke in tongues more than anyone else.
2. He wish all would speak in tongues.
3. Speaking in tongues is unknown languages (thats why they needed a translator)
4. It's not parables. Jesus spoke parables to the multitudes, not to His disciples.
5. Your mind doesn't know what is being spoke. (That's why you can pray with your mind at the same time)
6. He said, don't forbid anyone to speak in tongues.
7. He said, I would that you would all speak in tongues.
8. He said, desire prophesy. Pursue love, but EARNESTLY desire prophesy.
9. He said, tongues edifies yourself. This is true it builds up your relationship and your most holy faith. Praying in the Spirit.
10. The Bible is clear it says, I will speak to this people with an unknown tongue and they will not hear Me. That's why tongues is for unbelievers. Chew on that.
11. Prophesy is for believers. Interpretation of tongues is done from a place of prophesy.

Many churches today say the following.

1. God doesn't still heal.
2. God doesn't still talk to His people.
3. Forbid tongues.
4. Forbid prophesy.
5. Don't seek experiences with God. Seek religious tradition.

As a result, they will be forced to determine just like the Pharisees. Is this from God or the enemy?

Hopefully, hearts are made soft during this time to receive what God is doing in this time. If not, who do you think the great tribulation is going to come through? Who killed Jesus? Why did they kill Him? Who was the biggest threat during Paul's time that he warned about?

Make sure you're not in that group of people.

The Kingdom of God is full of love. It is peace. It is joy. And it is righteousness.

If you don't have these things, or know these things, then be silent and listen to the Holy Spirit. Have a soft heart to what He is doing in the Earth especially if it doesn't make sense to you. God uses the foolish things, not the wise.

Yes, even babbling tongues. Yes, even people who believe God still speaks to people. Yes, even people who are willing to step out and say be healed in the Name of Jesus. Yes, even those foolish people who think that God still raises people from the dead. People who actually believe Jesus meant what He said when He said it. And are willing to step out and be foolish to see the power of God.

Why? Because they don't care what man says, but what God says. And will continue to say the Name of Jesus and believe that we follow a Kingdom not of word, but of power.

C.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
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#80
In regards to Acts 2, there is 2 miracles here...

1. Everyone can hear their native language.
2. Everyone can hear what is being said.

Even if they are all speaking in their native tongues, you wouldn't be able to make it out because they would overlap, this is 2 miracles.

It is not however the end all be all in tongues.

Why? Lots of reasons, but the simplest one in this current context is this...

If tongues is simply speaking in someones native tongue, why would you need an interpreter?

You wouldn't.

If tongues is simply speaking in someones native tongue, why would Paul say no one can understand you? Why use a Scripture in Isaiah that shows God is speaking with a stammering tongue and no one understands? Why say speak to yourself and God, if no one can understand... why say in church he'd rather prophesy, then speak in tongues?

Because it's clear. Tongues is not someones native tongue. That was simply another miracle that occurred, but it's not the blueprint. It was what God used it for in the moment. And I've heard of this happening, many stories of this, but it doesn't mean I'll put God and His gifts in a box.

I never thought I'd speak in tongues, but I was wrong. God changed all that for me.

Now, I am soo thankful that I do. And like Paul I wish that all would, but also like Paul I desire so much more that everyone would prophesy.

C.