Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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2 miracles here...

1. Everyone heard their own language.
2. Everyone heard their own language.

If you had a multitude of people all screaming, you wouldn't be able to understand it. There are 2 miracles going on here... and Paul clearly says tongues are an unknown language. He says no understands them, but God. He says we need someone to interpret it. Explain that please.

C.


This isn't about tactics Inge. Does Acts 2 refer to known earthly human languages ? Below is the KJV. Feel free to use any version that suits you. ALL say the same. Tongues or native tongues are languages. The miracle of Pentecost was those speaking in earthly/human tongues/languages that were unknown/unlearned to them. Don't worry about replying to me. I tire hearing the "angelic tongue" argument as adequate explanation for todays gibberish. It's complete nonsense and a mockery of what was God's true sign gift to the unbelieving Jews 2,000 yrs. ago.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.




 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
This is very well written and backed by Scripture. It's too bad that it was ignored because you raised hard to answer questions that reveal incorrect traditions. I appreciate you taking the time, even if it might seem wasted.

C.



Are you serious? Because I personally think you ask these questions not to ponder, wander and think honestly about the answers. To ask questions that you think you won't/ cannot get a clear answer on is a tactic often used in certain debates. But because I hope and pray you really consider it, I answer.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:2
Did God speak?
What language? We do not know that because God does not mention that.
I do not ad, nor take from the bible.
I do not ad Spirit gifts, nor take.
I do not ad languages, nor take.

God spoke before He created the first human language with Adam and Eve
And before He created the human languages -tower of Babel

When you can tell me what God's language is in Genesis 1 before He created Adam and Eve, I can tell you if the angels speak exactly the same. (Nice tactic isn't it?)

God did create tongues, human and angel tongues. And satan can only copy stuff like acting as an angel of light.

I know what can be said. That in the old testament He speaks with human in a human language. He speaks to human in a language they know. Or they hear it as language they know. Was that the same language with Abraham as it was in the period of Jesus? Or a dialect of it?
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Math 3:17

But even a better example that God has (is able to speak) a mysterious language (no matter if He uses it or not) is this:
In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom Then came in all the king's wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof. Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance was changed in him, and his lords were astonied. Now the queen, by reason of the words of the king and his lords, came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed: There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers. Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.

Then was Daniel brought in before the king.........
Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

So tell me was this Gods language/writing? Are you sure you know all details of God's language and what He can or cannot do and does? Does God need to prove to you that He still can do what He can do? Than ask God for gifts/ tongues privately in your bedroom, while you pray honestly and without presumptions.

This is what Jesus says in Marc 16:17 (and I believe Him)
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
What do you think did Jesus mean with NEW tongues?

Now the tongues as mentioned by Paul, Peter and the whole congregation in Acts. All descent sober people.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

HOW can one be so sure.....that this is al about human language? As far as I know God speaks in whatever language He desires, even His own.

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


See the word multitude....you think they all heard all kinds of languages through one another? Hhmmm is possible, nothing mentioned here. But they clealy hear - every man in their own languages. How many? Well at least I count 17 names of cities and nations. When all would speak in 17 languages at one time....not sure if you hear something than. What do you think?

Lets go further...
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Acts 10:16
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Act 19:6
No language mentioned here...tongues seems to be a new "label" to explain the phenomenon that Jesus already mentions in Mark 16:17 Why? When it would be a language they could mention: they spoke Persian, or Egyptian....nothing of it all...only "spake with tongues". Why?

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Cor 12:10
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Cor 12:28
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1 Cor12:30
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1C 13:1

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1 Cor 14:5,6

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1 Cor 14:8

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Cor 14:22
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 1 Kor 14:27
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Kor 14:39

Can you tell me how you can derive from these (most of the) verses with "speaking with tongues" that it are only native languages? Or known languages? Human languages?
I cannot.

I see


  1. Speak with tongues. "Tongues" mentioned in Strongs = the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired).
  2. New tongue and unknown tongue What should that have been you think? A unknown human language...or unknown angel language?
  3. Interpreter as gift next to tongues You think they use interpreter just as translator? Why on earth would God give the translating as gift when they can just learn the language? Why would God do that? And how do you think they translate new and unknown tongues than?
  4. Tongues as gift of the Spirit. Think about it...why is this language so special? Because it is the Spirit in a human speaking. That is why with interpretor it is prophecy..... You think that would be also when it is always a human language and someone just translates that?
  5. Paul wishes all should speak in tongues. When it would be a human language Persian, or Egyptian you think he would make this statement? "I wish all could speak a native human language"

The bible tells me that this tongues is something that can be given by God when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit. And not all Spirit filled christians do have this gift. And the bible does not tell me if the name of this language is specific "angelic", "mysterical", "humanly", or just "konabilibali" . It is simply named "speaking with tongues". No more, no less.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:38,39
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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1. John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):

This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place.

(Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 36.7. Chrysostom is commenting on 1 Cor 12:1–2 and introducing the entire chapter. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 146.)

2. Augustine (354–430):

In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away.

(Source: Augustine, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, 6.10. Cf. Schaff, NPNF, First Series, 7:497–98.)

3. Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):

In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.

(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1, 7. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).

Note: Proponents of continuationism, like Jon Ruthven (in his work, On the Cessation of the Charismata), also acknowledge cessationist views in other church fathers (like Origen in the 3rd century, and Ambrosiaster in the 4th century).

Additionally, to this list, we could include the most well-known name of the middle ages, the 13th-century scholastic, Thomas Aquinas.

But let’s jump ahead to the Reformation and Puritan eras.

4. Martin Luther (1483–1546)

In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.

(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6.)

5. John Calvin (1509–1564):

Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity.

(Source: John Calvin, Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, III:389.)

The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, has vanished away in order to make the preaching of the Gospel marvellous for ever.

(Source: John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV:19, 18.)

6. John Owen (1616–1683):

Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.

(Source: John Owen, Works, IV:518.)

7. Thomas Watson (1620–1686):

Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.

(Source: Thomas Watson, The Beatitudes, 140.)

8. Matthew Henry (1662–1714):

What these gifts were is at large told us in the body of the chapter [1 Corinthians 12]; namely, extraordinary offices and powers, bestowed on ministers and Christians in the first ages, for conviction of unbelievers, and propagation of the gospel.

(Source: Matthew Henry, Complete Commentary, in reference to 1 Corinthians 12.)

The gift of tongues was one new product of the spirit of prophecy and given for a particular reason, that, the Jewish pale being taken down, all nations might be brought into the church. These and other gifts of prophecy, being a sign, have long since ceased and been laid aside, and we have no encouragement to expect the revival of them; but, on the contrary, are directed to call the scriptures the more sure word of prophecy, more sure than voices from heaven; and to them we are directed to take heed, to search them, and to hold them fast, 2 Peter 1:29.

(Source: Matthew Henry, Preface to Vol. IV of his Exposition of OT & NT, vii.)

9. John Gill (1697–1771):

[Commenting on 1 Corinthians 12:9 and 30,]

Now these gifts were bestowed in common, by the Spirit, on apostles, prophets, and pastors, or elders of the church, in those early times: the Alexandrian copy, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, “by one Spirit”.

(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:9.)

No; when these gifts were in being, all had them not. When anointing with oil, in order to heal the sick, was in use, it was only performed by the elders of the church, not by the common members of it, who were to be sent for by the sick on this occasion.

(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:30.)

10. Jonathan Edwards (1703–1758):

In the days of his [Jesus’] flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of the apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles.

But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church. For there was now completed an established written revelation of the mind and will of God, wherein God had fully recorded a standing and all-sufficient rule for his church in all ages. And the Jewish church and nation being overthrown, and the Christian church and the last dispensation of the church of God being established, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed, and therefore they ceased; for though they had been continued in the church for so many ages, yet then they failed, and God caused them to fail because there was no further occasion for them. And so was fulfilled the saying of the text, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” And now there seems to be an end to all such fruits of the Spirit as these, and we have no reason to expect them any more.

(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Sermon entitled, “The Holy Spirit Forever To Be Communicated To The Saints, In The Grace Of Charity, Or Divine Love” on 1 Corinthians 13:8.)

“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given ‘in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.”

(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Charity and its Fruits, 29.)

* * * * *

To this list, we could add other names: James Buchanan, R. L. Dabney, Charles Spurgeon, George Smeaton, Abraham Kuyper, William G. T. Shedd, B. B. Warfield, A. W. Pink, and so on.

AUGUST 11, 2011
What Cessationism Is Not
by Nathan Busenitz

What Cessationism Is Not | the Cripplegate < click
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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This is very well written and backed by Scripture. It's too bad that it was ignored because you raised hard to answer questions that reveal incorrect traditions. I appreciate you taking the time, even if it might seem wasted.

C.
why didn't you notice the post was not ignored?
it and the others were addressed numerous times.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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REPORT FROM THE APOSTOLIC COUNCIL OF PROPHETIC ELDERS --WITH FOCUS ON CUBA
Reported by: Chuck Pierce Glory of Zion International Ministries, Inc.

Date: FIRST PUBLISHED ON THE ELIJAH LIST ON Jan 30, 2002

Republished, May 12, 2002

...

“The Spirit of God then allowed the prophets to see documentation in Miami that had been hidden for years released.

“I am getting ready to release the hidden documentation. And even as I do, there is going to be a hardness that is even over some Florida-Cubans that will be broken.” - supposedly the holy spirit speaking to the NAR guys in 2002

...

And the Lord would say to Florida, “A work has been started there, a digging down deep. But you haven’t allowed the Spirit to dig deep enough. All roots of bitterness must be dealt with completely. I must pull out the taproot. As the intercessors of this nation press in to Me, I will reveal the deepest roots and the strongest roots that are holding open the gates of destruction to this country.

That is the gate that is most open for the most serious terrorist attack, even more serious than on the day of 9-11. And the gate that is open, and I am calling on My intercessors to help close that gate by going to the root, by going to the root, by going to the root, by going to the deepest root and pulling it out.

For I would not deal only with the fruit above, but with the root below. The whole dealing of this root has to do with a humbling of American government, the State Department policy that has been based upon economics rooted to the greed in this nation. And there must be a deep repentance within this nation, this deep taproot of greed. This taproot of greed is what turned the St. Louis ship of Jewish people who needed refuge in World War II. This root is still there and it is still alive and it must be pulled out or the gate will be open for the enemy to come in. So pull the root out and close the gate” says the Lord.

- supposedly god speaking through apostle & prophet chuck pierce

REPORT FROM THE APOSTOLIC COUNCIL OF PROPHETIC ELDERS --WITH FOCUS ON CUBA < click


is this the way God speaks:confused:
are these people real apostles and prophets:confused:
continuations please comment.


____ yes they are real

____ no, they are lying wolves

____ i have no idea, stop judging
 
Feb 17, 2010
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I have NEVER spoken in any language but the ones I learned , and like English it took YEARS to learn. So just getting a language you did not learn is already a miricle and a gift of God. However, I do not believe all who rant out loud in words I do not understand, or never heard. I did not hear all languages on earth.

So becasue I never heard all languages on earth, and I do not understand the HEAVEN LANGUAGE, or the tongues of ANGELS, neither the ones I NEVER heard. Like Arabic, I heve NEVER heard a person speak in Arabic in my life. I also NEVER heard a man speak Phillipian in my life! And there are many others, so if a man stand up in church and pray out loud in ARABIC, he can lie and say it is the togues of ANGELS, not MEN... I might believe him or not, I would not know the difference.

All I know is there are tongues of men and angels, and there is one group of people that will be selected for their pureness and they will sing a new song, and ONLY THEY will be able to learn the song. And they are 144000 with the Name of the Lamb and the Father on their foreheads.... I know I am NOT one of them, for they are even not defiled with women.

So this tongues is not my strongpoint, however I am shown when it is an act, and even NOT FROM GOD. I have, however no problem if it is from God and there is an interpreter, and God gives me peace and understanding, and it will have to be 100% Scripture correct, or I will have something to say, and that might not be what the "tongues" people want to hear. IF the interpretation is AGAINST the Gospel of Jesus, then the tongues is also against the Gospel, and another "satan input".

The prohecies as well. It should be in line with Scripture 100%. There are many prohecies not fulfilled yet, and they may even be given in a tongue I do not understand, HOWEVER t has to be interpreted but ANOTHER, as THE HOLY SPIRIT will interpret. And HE will NEVER go against Scripture...

The COMMAND is to JUDGE ALL PROPHECIES, with a RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT.... God's Word is the righteous judgement. The Truth of God is the judge. You either know it or not! If you know the Truth, you will judge RIGHTEOUS, and if you do not, you CANNOT judge RIGHTEOUS! As simple as that.

My finding is VERY LITTLE people KNOW GOD AND THE ONE HE SENT! Oh they claim they know Him, but they are NOT IN THE LIGHT! For the ones that knows Him is not in darkness but in light. And what communion has the light with darkness?

God seperates the false from the Truth.... For Thou shalt know the Truth and the Truth shall make thee FREE!!!! WOWOOWOWOW!
 

inge

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2012
238
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This isn't about tactics Inge. Does Acts 2 refer to known earthly human languages ? Below is the KJV. Feel free to use any version that suits you. ALL say the same. Tongues or native tongues are languages. The miracle of Pentecost was those speaking in earthly/human tongues/languages that were unknown/unlearned to them. Don't worry about replying to me. I tire hearing the "angelic tongue" argument as adequate explanation for todays gibberish. It's complete nonsense and a mockery of what was God's true sign gift to the unbelieving Jews 2,000 yrs. ago.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.




1 I use the KJV 1611
2 You did not read my posting (and the verses from KJV)
3 Because otherwise you would know I did not call it angelic tongues.....
4 You do not want to open the whole bible

sad
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Zone,
suppose you lived 100 years from now, and you were writing a history of tornadoes. You read this clip from me,

"I have never in my life seen a tornado. Never."

The truth is, I haven't seen them. You collect thousands of testimonies from people from the past who had never seen a tornado. You conclude, there were no tornadoes in the early 20th century. As proof, you have dozens of quotes from people who had never seen them. You publish your results in your dissertation.

Another researcher across the country is doing the same historical project. She releases her dissertation at the same time as yours. But hers contains quotes from people who saw tornadoes and she reaches the opposite conclusion.

Who used a better approach to research? The other researcher. If someone hasn't seen something, that doesn't prove it did not exist. Quoting people who had not witnessed spiritual gifts saying they hadn't seen them isn't proof. It's the quotes from the people who have witnessed them that are evidence.

If you are really serious you could look up that book by Burgess "The Spirit and the Church, Volume I: Antiquity" for quotes from Greek and Latin sources that many call 'the church fathers.' I've already referred to Irenaeus on tongues. For other gifts, there are various sources, lots of sources in support of prophecy. There are plenty of accounts of visions and miracles throughout history.
2. Augustine (354–430):

In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away.

(Source: Augustine, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, 6.10. Cf. Schaff, NPNF, First Series, 7:497–98.)
Later quotes from Augustine attest to supernatural healings. I wouldn't be surprised if his comments on tongues at an older age would have been different if a sermon had been preserved.


You are also quoting some late sources, not the sources from the 200's that show these things were still active. The quotes from the period you are quoting that DO show these things occurred are more relevant to the discussion. In spite of these quotes, the Roman Catholic Church still believed in visions, miracles, etc. as possibilities, and so it was not cessationist.

3. Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):

In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.
That doesn't sound cessationist. 'may not take the same form' allows for it to take the same form.

Even with the quotes, the type of 'cessationism' you are promoting was not the position of the Roman Catholic Church, which allows for miracles and various other supernatural things. Nor is it the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1, 7. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).

4. Martin Luther (1483–1546)

In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.

(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6.)
I don't think anyone is arguing that Luther was a Charismatic.

5. John Calvin (1509–1564):
Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity.

(Source: John Calvin, Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, III:389.)
Calvin has the good sense here to acknowledge he doesn't have scripture to support his position.
10. Jonathan Edwards (1703–1758):

In the days of his [Jesus’] flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of the apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles.

But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church.
That just shows he wasn't as well read on the topic as he could have been.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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oh for....arga-warga.

hey - i wonder if that means anything?
i think i feel closer to God.
arga-warga
arga-warga
Arga warga: The price of the family.

That's translating using 'the understanding', btw.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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See now that's the point. I'm not trying to make the scripture fit the doctrine. The doctrine comes from the scripture unlike Pentecostalism which forces tongues to be something they are not and never were.
Your not trying to make scripture fit doctrine. You don't even go that far. You just ignore the scriptures that contradict your doctrine and keep repeating the same points over and over again. Why don't you read I Corinthians 14 and then come back and join the discussion? If you have read it, comment on the verse that says 'no man understandeth him.' That contradicts your idea of how tongues always must function.

If you preach the gospel and then say so. All you ever talk about is tongues which scripture says ended. You go on about healing which God does all the time but it seems you need to corrupt it into a sign of worship.
Hmmm. This is a thread about a very narrow topic, so of course that is what I am discussing. It's not reasonable or logical to think you know what I talk about all the time based on reading this one thread.

You sure like to make accusations. Corrupting healing into a sign of worship? What does that even mean? It sounds like a nasty accusation, though. I haven't said anything about healing being worship or a sign of worship, whatever that means.

You post short little posts. You don't deal with the certain points of scripture that are relevant, that have already been shown to contradict your view. Honestly, some of your posts show a lack of depth of knowledge of the scriptures. I wouldn't mind that, but it sure looks bad mixed with the condescending attitude and accusations. You seem to always have a condescending comment about the poster or movement that disagrees with you. You attack people's salvation.

Scripture does say that faith is unseen.
Did that stop the Lord or the apostles from healing in the Bible? The people believed first, before they saw the healing, and then they received.

What can I say it's always the other guy and not me.
Learn to accept responsibility, then.

You are the guy that started all this, maligning all the non-Pentecostal churches and now you won't take ownership of the flaws.
That's nonsense. You continue with the false accusations. I haven't maligned non-Pentecostals or lauded the Pentecostals. I did not say most churches that identify as 'Pentecostal' obeyed I Corinthians 14 on this issue.

The word of God has it's own merit. A scripture isn't true or false because a certain denomination believes what it says. I stated facts from scripture in the OP. I Corinthians 14 passes on certain commandments from the Lord for church gatherings. Churches that disobey, disobey. It's not rocket science. It's not maligning people. It's stating facts that are very clear from the scriptures.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
1 I use the KJV 1611
2 You did not read my posting (and the verses from KJV)
3 Because otherwise you would know I did not call it angelic tongues.....
4 You do not want to open the whole bible
sad
I read your post Inge. What I didn't do was attempt to make Daniel's God given gift (that verified to the king that Daniel was a true servant of God while the kings false soothsayers were not) to interpret God's given prophecy to king Nebuchadnezzar the same occurrence/happening as what took place at pentecost .... because it wasn't. We know this because the apostle Peter said in Acts 2:16 regarding the miracle at pentecost .... "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel". If you seek to make the case that "God can do anything that He wants" ... including speaking in languages that we humans don't understand, I would agree wholeheartedly that He can ... and infinitely more than this, naturally. But I didn't address certain portions of your post because they had nothing to do with the subject matter. All that seek to defend todays gibberish as "biblical tongues" do as you did. Because you must (sad). God also spoke through a donkey to Balaam. Since God never changes, does He still do that today ? CONTEXT ... TIMEFRAME ... and most importantly ... PURPOSE. What was the purpose of the many wondrous and miraculous occurrences performed by God throughout the ages ? Did they occur as God saw fit to accomplish His purpose ? The answer, as we both know, is yes. Do you know anybody in your lifetime that has drank poison and/or been bitten by a serpent to no effect ? How many missionaries do you know today serving abroad that don't first learn the language of their native destination ? How many today with the "gift" of healing spend their time leading a mass exodus' of healed sick patients out of our hospitals ? God can and sometimes does intervene in our lives supernaturally. Nobody disputes this. But I have no need for anybody to prove this to me through any fake signs and wonders. For everything there is a season (and purpose) under the sun. Biblical tongues had it's own.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to unclefester again.
 
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Still not convinced in cessation has already happened - when the perfect comes - Jesus - it will

OT prophet what happened if you didn't listen - you died
NT prophet what happened if you didn't listen - maybe maybe not, something would happen, you didn't necessarily have to respond or believe what they said. Best example is Paul, even though the guy gave a prophecy about what would happen to him, he still went

What happened to most people Jesus/God spoke to audibly? Usually they had to hold onto that Word from God, very close to their heart because of the persecution, and hardships ahead.

For example - Mark Driscoll testifies that God audibly spoke to him a long time ago about 4 things, marry his wife, preach the bible, teach men, and plant churches. He also share how extremely difficult it was on him, his marriage, how he was clinically depressed for a good 12 years, and thought God hated him through it. Today he is married to grace, preaches the Bible, focuses on training men, and plants churches


People who casually say, I heard from God, sadly have no idea what that means. can people use the gifting of the Holy Spirit in the flesh, yes(though the Holy Spirit never led them to do it)

Prophecy isn't what is, but what will be - say you have a brother in christ and they are struggling with sin, and they can't see past it, but you can. Speak into his life what will be, by the power of the Holy Spirit in Christ
 
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Show me where you have authority to demand people to go search prophecies for you so you can test them. If you despise prophesyings from the get go, how are you going to test them?
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Quench not the Spirit. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Despise not prophesyings. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.
 
B

BradC

Guest
“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given ‘in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.”

Can anyone out there qualify this statement and give some clarity to what these 'extraordinary gifts' are that have ceased and what the 'not so extraordinary gifts' are that have not ceased?
 
Dec 26, 2012
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HMM Wonder why Jesus used this imagery? Those are His are called sheep,false prophets wolves in sheep's clothing. If they are all sheep no problem. But if one is a wolf then a big problem. It's not a pretty picture. See the thing is do we see it as if one is a sheep and the other is a wolf as they are TRYING TO EAT ME.

 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Your not trying to make scripture fit doctrine. You don't even go that far. You just ignore the scriptures that contradict your doctrine and keep repeating the same points over and over again. Why don't you read I Corinthians 14 and then come back and join the discussion? If you have read it, comment on the verse that says 'no man understandeth him.' That contradicts your idea of how tongues always must function.
Sir the natural man cannot understand Spiritual things. Paul explained to the Corinthians in chapter one. You insist on making tongues into something other than languages that men speak. This is an error on your part. When you start off wrong you cannot arrive at the correct destination except you make the required correction.
How is it profitable if no man understandeth him? Languages and interpreters are quantifiable and not required to be supernatural. There is little discussion when you steadfastly set scripture in contradiction with other scripture. Tongues as they were seen in the apostolic era have ceased per scripture.
Hmmm. This is a thread about a very narrow topic, so of course that is what I am discussing. It's not reasonable or logical to think you know what I talk about all the time based on reading this one thread.
I'm attempting to determine if I need to address you as a believer or if you should be treated as an unbeliever.
You sure like to make accusations. Corrupting healing into a sign of worship? What does that even mean? It sounds like a nasty accusation, though. I haven't said anything about healing being worship or a sign of worship, whatever that means.
When ungodly men take Godly things and consume them upon their lusts they corrupt the Godly things. Same for receiving Godly things that are good without being thankful. It is a corruption of the purity of Gods mercy.
You post short little posts. You don't deal with the certain points of scripture that are relevant, that have already been shown to contradict your view. Honestly, some of your posts show a lack of depth of knowledge of the scriptures. I wouldn't mind that, but it sure looks bad mixed with the condescending attitude and accusations. You seem to always have a condescending comment about the poster or movement that disagrees with you. You attack people's salvation.
When it is not evident that the person knows Christ I have an obligation to present the gospel. I keep my post brief because most cannot endure long rambling posts. If I cannot be concise I'm better off being silent. Sounds like you are starting to get the message.
Did that stop the Lord or the apostles from healing in the Bible? The people believed first, before they saw the healing, and then they received.
Why did the Lord heal the infirmities of the Israelites? What of the greater healing that was rejected?
Learn to accept responsibility, then.
Your comprehension level is low. You are the person saying its not me but the other guy who believes that way. If direct reference to tongues as a sign of salvation.
That's nonsense. You continue with the false accusations. I haven't maligned non-Pentecostals or lauded the Pentecostals. I did not say most churches that identify as 'Pentecostal' obeyed I Corinthians 14 on this issue.
Your denial of these things does not make them false.
The word of God has it's own merit. A scripture isn't true or false because a certain denomination believes what it says. I stated facts from scripture in the OP. I Corinthians 14 passes on certain commandments from the Lord for church gatherings. Churches that disobey, disobey. It's not rocket science. It's not maligning people. It's stating facts that are very clear from the scriptures.
The first part of this statement is true the rest of it is not. You established based on your denomination perspective your interpretation of the passage. You carefully constructed a conflict which you intend to exploit. You continue to attempt to exploit this false premise as commandments of the Lord when they really represent correction for errors in the body.

If you really sincerely wish to study this subject I recommend you go back to the first mention of languages or tongues in the bible and trace them through to the NT. Your first clue should be that at one time there was only one language among men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given ‘in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.”

Can anyone out there qualify this statement and give some clarity to what these 'extraordinary gifts' are that have ceased and what the 'not so extraordinary gifts' are that have not ceased?
1 Corinthians 13:8 Every believer has gifts from God that he can use to serve the Lord. If may be unfair to classify any gift as not so extraordinary because every gift God gives is good in Gods eyes. The gift of giving to others may seem less glamorous but even a slice of bread given to a hungry soul is a glory to God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Arga warga: The price of the family.

That's translating using 'the understanding', btw.
oh! what language did i speak?
which nation says arga warga? couldn't find it on online translators.