Jesus and the Bible

[Sleepy]

Hello everybody. Peace be upon all of you. There are many different verses within the Bible. I want to point out a few and discuss what it means in regards to Jesus and Christianity and for all of us to arrive at the truth because we all do know there will be a Day of Judgement.

Mark 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

In Christianity, Jesus is considered God. But the verse is clearly telling Christians that Jesus is not all knowing. It cannot make sense that a being that is being worshiped as a God is not all-knowing. That defeats the purpose of God and basic metaphysics of God. This is besides the fact that one version of the God knows while the other doesn't. Many times Christians will make claims that Jesus and God are physically different but mentally and spiritually the same though for some reason one version of the God doesn't know the last day. Doesn't make sense to me.


Matthew 26:39-42

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

Starting from the beginning. Jesus fell on his face and prayed. Christians do not pray like that though the supposed goal is to model the character of Jesus. The only people that pray in such a manner are Muslims....

Does it make sense that God is going to pray to God and in such a manner where the tone suggests two different Beings?


Original sin.
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Adam did wrong by eating from the tree. How can a physical act of a human being taint the pure and clean souls created by God that go wrong based off the sins they commit. Adam cannot change anything of God's or taint it.


Jesus and laws
God has no bounds. He cannot be bounded. Nothing exists independent of him, everything is dependent on him. He depends on no other. No other can influence or affect him. How can it be that God "has" to do something. He has to eat, he has to pee, he's under influence of gravity, physical laws, being hurt, cut. Nothing can affect him but he affects all.


I look forward to hearing back, Sleepy561

 

[Bowman]

Hello everybody. Peace be upon all of you. There are many different verses within the Bible. I want to point out a few and discuss what it means in regards to Jesus and Christianity and for all of us to arrive at the truth because we all do know there will be a Day of Judgement.

Mark 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

In Christianity, Jesus is considered God. But the verse is clearly telling Christians that Jesus is not all knowing. It cannot make sense that a being that is being worshiped as a God is not all-knowing. That defeats the purpose of God and basic metaphysics of God. This is besides the fact that one version of the God knows while the other doesn't. Many times Christians will make claims that Jesus and God are physically different but mentally and spiritually the same though for some reason one version of the God doesn't know the last day. Doesn't make sense to me.


Matthew 26:39-42

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

Starting from the beginning. Jesus fell on his face and prayed. Christians do not pray like that though the supposed goal is to model the character of Jesus. The only people that pray in such a manner are Muslims....

Does it make sense that God is going to pray to God and in such a manner where the tone suggests two different Beings?


Original sin.
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Adam did wrong by eating from the tree. How can a physical act of a human being taint the pure and clean souls created by God that go wrong based off the sins they commit. Adam cannot change anything of God's or taint it.


Jesus and laws
God has no bounds. He cannot be bounded. Nothing exists independent of him, everything is dependent on him. He depends on no other. No other can influence or affect him. How can it be that God "has" to do something. He has to eat, he has to pee, he's under influence of gravity, physical laws, being hurt, cut. Nothing can affect him but he affects all.


I look forward to hearing back, Sleepy561

Christian's view Jesus as the God-man.

What you have chosen to do is look solely at the scriptures revealing His humanity...to the exclusion of the ones revealing His divinity.

To pursue your line of reason, only, leads to cult status...

 

[Sleepy]

"your line of reason" How about the only line of reason. There is no mention in the bible either that Jesus, God the Father, and Holy Trinity are one.

I'm looking at the scriptures that claim to do both when in fact it's contradicting the godness, and proving he's a man. A Prophet of God. Like Abraham, like Moses, like Noah.

 

[oldhermit]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He exchanged the essence of God for the essence of man. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Spirit clothes itself with flesh, John 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:14 and 10:5-10. This is much more than just a transformation from spirit to flesh. Every attribute that defined him as God will either be submitted to limitations or subjected to vulnerability. Omnipotence yields itself to dependency. The all-sufficient one now becomes [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]fully dependent, Isaiah 12:2, John 5:30 and Matthew 4:1-10. How can we envision the Creator of the universe emptying himself of all power and submitting as an infant into the care of man? To do this would require an absolute dependency upon the Father for his safekeeping as he grows to manhood. He became subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that are part of all human existence. As a man he became hungry, tired, suffered pain, and became subject to time and the changes this naturally brings to the physical body. Omniscience gives way to revelation. He must learn God’s will as a man and submit to it, Hebrews 10:7,[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49-50 and 17-4. Omnipresence confines itself to the limitations of time and space. His Eternal nature is surrendered for mortality - he became subject to death. The transcendent One became an equal among his fleshly brethren, Hebrews 2:17. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The unified One became the cursed of[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God, Mark 15:34, Galatians 3:13 and 2Corinthians 5:21. The unchanging One became subject to change. He not only changes form but his fleshly form will also be subject to all of the changes of natural biological processes. [/FONT]

 

[Sleepy]

God cannot be submitted to any limitations. He is the Greatest. The most Magnificent, the Most Merciful. Humans humble themselves to God. Not the other way around

God can never be subject to death for he is the only constant in a changing universe. He doesn't die, be born. He Is. He always Was. He always Will Be. He doesn't die nor does he age. He doesn't feel pain, he doesn't need food
He needs nothing. Everything needs him

Basic and at the same time logical and clear truth about God that makes sense

He created the Earth. Gravity. Laws of Physics, thermodynamics. They all depend on Him. He can never be subject to his creation.

 

[oldhermit]

You say he cannot. Phil. 2 says he did. Should I take your word for it or Paul's?
Your logic is profoundly faulty. If God is as great as you claim, and cannot subject himself to limitations does not this line of reasoning in itself place limitations on God? You are arguing about things you clearly do not understand and have not thought through.

 

[Angela53510]

Welcome Muslim friend! Peace be to you!

I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which I know is something you could never have with Allah. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts, to lead, guide and comfort us. That is in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is also God.

One thing you must learn if you are going to argue the Bible, is about context. Do not take Jesus' words out of context. Do not interpret them from your Muslim point of view. Instead, read the entire chapter, the book, the New Testament and the old. You will find Jesus to be much more than a prophet.

Jesus also said "I and the Father are one.” John 10:30

Or do you think that is from a corrupted part of the Bible?

The whole book of John is actually about presenting Christ as God to believers and unbelievers alike.

Jesus is "God with us"

“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us)." Matt. 1:23

I will pray that you will understand that Mohammed was a false prophet and wrote many false things about Jesus and who he was and what he came to do.

Jesus came to save sinners by his mercy and grace. That is unmerited favor. We do not deserve to be saved, and no amount of works will save us. I know as a Muslim, you have to work for your salvation, and you die without knowing whether you were acceptable in Allah's sight.

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." 1 Tim. 1:15-16

All you have to do is believe that Jesus died for your sins, and that he is God and you will be saved and have eternal life. I praise God you came into this forum and you are being exposed to the truth gospel of Jesus Christ, the living God who came to earth as a man, but co-existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit from eternity.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all thefullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." Co. 1:15-20

 

[Sleepy]

The same Paul that never met Jesus. Some sound logic huh?

"If God is as great as you claim, and cannot subject himself to limitations does not this line of reasoning in itself place limitations on God? "
You're basically saying I'm saying God is bound to limitations by saying that nothing can limit him. Saying that nothing can limit him is not placing limitations on him, it's saying that he's the greatest. You're trying to create a circular argument which is elementary.

 

[oldhermit]

Before I take this any further, do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

 

[Bowman]

"your line of reason" How about the only line of reason. There is no mention in the bible either that Jesus, God the Father, and Holy Trinity are one.

As opposed to what? Your Koran?



Mat28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντατα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιουπνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents,each has the same singular name.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism isthe same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh isrepeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.

I'm looking at the scriptures that claim to do both when in fact it's contradicting the godness, and proving he's a man.

Nope.

You are looking at the ones showing His humanity...and then you are questioning how can He be God.

That's called hypocrisy...

A Prophet of God. Like Abraham, like Moses, like Noah.

Islam 101.

These OT prophets all worshiped the trinity and were found to be Righteous because of it...

Study up...

 

[Bowman]

God cannot be submitted to any limitations. He is the Greatest. The most Magnificent, the Most Merciful. Humans humble themselves to God. Not the other way around

God can never be subject to death for he is the only constant in a changing universe. He doesn't die, be born. He Is. He always Was. He always Will Be. He doesn't die nor does he age. He doesn't feel pain, he doesn't need food
He needs nothing. Everything needs him

Basic and at the same time logical and clear truth about God that makes sense

He created the Earth. Gravity. Laws of Physics, thermodynamics. They all depend on Him. He can never be subject to his creation.

Even in the Koran, the god 'allah' required the help of The Son in creating the Universe...

 

[Sleepy]

That's untrue completely. God has blessed me in many different ways and I am always at peace. And I love my Prophet Isa( Jesus. The Prophet of God sent to deliver his message.


"One thing you must learn if you are going to argue the Bible, is about context. Do not take Jesus' words out of context." Every verse from the Bible I gave was in the context of the bible. I didn't have any opinion on it. I only presented it and showed you how illogical it is.

Mark 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

The being you're worshiping Angela is not all-knowing. Which is again clear that Jesus is not God. Because God is all knowing.


Jesus also said "I and the Father are one.” John 10:30

Or do you think that is from a corrupted part of the Bible?

I do believe that is from a corrupted view and second no mention of the trinity. It's not stated anywhere without humans having to infer.


I will pray that you will understand that Mohammed was a false prophet and wrote many false things about Jesus and who he was and what he came to do.

Jesus came to save sinners by his mercy and grace. That is unmerited favor. We do not deserve to be saved, and no amount of works will save us. I know as a Muslim, you have to work for your salvation, and you die without knowing whether you were acceptable in Allah's sight.

" You have to work for your salvation" Believe in good and follow God's word as opposed to Christians who can go about sinning as long as they believe. Life is easy huh lol.
No. This life is a test. A test by God to follow his word and the Prophets sent down. Those who do so will go to heaven. You saying you die without knowing is false. A huge difference between you and me is I'm not spouting lies.


Jesus was a Prophet of God. Like Abraham, Noah, Moses, and others. He did not die for my sins or anybodies. God doesn't die. Humans die. Jesus didn't die though period. God is also all knowing which Jesus is not

 

[oldhermit]

DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD????

 

[Deadtosin]

[h=3]John 20:27-29[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither your finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Sleepy]

As opposed to what? Your Koran?



Mat28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντατα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιουπνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents,each has the same singular name.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism isthe same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh isrepeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.






Nope.

You are looking at the ones showing His humanity...and then you are questioning how can He be God.

That's called hypocrisy...







Islam 101.

These OT prophets all worshiped the trinity and were found to be Righteous because of it...

Study up...

Mark 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Shows how he doesn't have God qualities and only human ones and those assigned to Prophets.

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

No mention of Jesus. Left to you to infer and hypothesize

 

[oldhermit]

DELEATED.......

 

[Sleepy]

DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD????

Oldhermit,

The Bible was given to Jesus because the Old Torah was corrupted. The Bible was corrupted by people such as Paul and the enemies of Jesus who deceived others into believing he was God.

He never claimed he was God. He was a Prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, Adam, like it had been. He was preaching the word of One God. Worship that God. Do not associate others with him. Be moral and virtuous and follow his word.

 

[Sleepy]

Even in the Koran, the god 'allah' required the help of The Son in creating the Universe...

That's not true. As a Christian I would expect you to be truthful and at least objective but it seems like that is not the case.

 

[Angela53510]

Jesus was a prophet, no doubt about it! He was also a teacher, a good man, and a rabbi. He is the Messiah, the way, the truth and the life. He is the Kings of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is also God!

Try the Old Testament.

"For a child will be born for us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
He will be named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The dominion will be vast,
and its prosperity will never end.
He will reign on the throne of David
and over his kingdom,
to establish and sustain it
with justice and righteousness from now on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this." Isaiah 9:6-7

This child who would be born was the "everlasting Father" That sounds like a prophecy that Jesus, born a man would be the same as his Father, to me. If you ever chance to read the whole Bible, you will find Jesus revealed as Lord and Saviour from start to end. And that he is God.

 

[Bowman]

That's not true. As a Christian I would expect you to be truthful and at least objective but it seems like that is not the case.

وهو الذي خلق السموت والأرض بالحق ويوم
يقول كن فيكون قوله الحق وله الملك يوم ينفخ
في الصور علم الغيب والشهدة وهو الحكيم
الخبير

Wahuwa allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi wayawma yaqoolu kun fayakoonu qawluhu alhaqqu walahu almulku yawma yunfakhu fee alssoori AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadati wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru

6.73 And he, whom created the heavens and the earth, through The Truth, and a day He says: "Be." So it becomes; His Word (is) The Truth, and certainly He (is) the King; a day the bugle will be blown, knower (of) the unseen, and the testimony, and He is the wise, the ever aware.


Here, we are told that His Word is The Truth...of which, both are Biblical epithets for Jesus Christ, as well as 'The King'....and the day that the bugle will be blown (from Revelation).




The following ayah tells us quite plainly that they merely copied the fact that Jesus created the universe from previous Revelation…i.e. from “The Book”...i.e. from the Holy Bible…



خلق الله السموت والأرض بالحق إن في ذلك لءاية للمؤمنين

Khalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi inna fee thalika laayatan lilmu-mineena

29.44 “allah” created the heavens and the earth through The Truth, certainly in that previous Revelation to believers.



As confirmed by the authors of the Koran, the Universe was created through Jesus Christ (i.e. The Truth)....as this is most certainly contained in the previous Revelation to believers...