What Laws are still valid to christians
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Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Walking after the Spirit does not negate or abrogate the Law, it fulfils it.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
What might those things be?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
We do know this, don't we?
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
carnally:
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
Means fleshly, physical.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind cannot be subject to God's Spiritual Law.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Again we refer to Rom 7...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Walking after the Spirit does not negate or abrogate the Law, it fulfils it.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
What might those things be?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
We do know this, don't we?
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
carnally:
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
Means fleshly, physical.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind cannot be subject to God's Spiritual Law.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Again we refer to Rom 7...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
E
to bad they
1. Will not save you
2. Do not tell you how to be holy right and just, Just tell you how well you have done them, which leads us beack to number 1.
The schoolmaster. why? There are NON righteous no not one! How do we know? The law kills.. Because cursed is the one who does not obey every command perfectly from birth till death.
1. Will not save you
2. Do not tell you how to be holy right and just, Just tell you how well you have done them, which leads us beack to number 1.
The schoolmaster. why? There are NON righteous no not one! How do we know? The law kills.. Because cursed is the one who does not obey every command perfectly from birth till death.
Your opinion here does not line up with scripture...
Point 1 - I agree that obedience will not save you, but you missed the other half of the equation...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Disobedience will kill you (eternally).
Point 2) On this one, you are diametrically opposite of the scripture...
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law is not the killer, the breaking of the Law is the killer...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Breaking the Law earns death. The Law is not the problem, we are...
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So if anyone who does not obey perfectly from birth to death is cursed, are you immune? Or do you need God's forgiveness (grace) for your transgressions?
Point 1 - I agree that obedience will not save you, but you missed the other half of the equation...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Disobedience will kill you (eternally).
Point 2) On this one, you are diametrically opposite of the scripture...
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law is not the killer, the breaking of the Law is the killer...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Breaking the Law earns death. The Law is not the problem, we are...
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So if anyone who does not obey perfectly from birth to death is cursed, are you immune? Or do you need God's forgiveness (grace) for your transgressions?
E
1. You have already been disobedient, thus you are already dead (unless you have been saved by the death of Christ) so it is already TOO late to be good enough.
2. Those who are born again WILL BE OBEDIENT! Not perfect.
3. How good is good enough? According to scripture. perfection. If you have not attained this, you have already failed to meet the mark required by God.
thus it is you who is apposed to scripture. Because you state obedience is not required for salvation. then in the same breath, you state it is.. You contradict yourself.
You finally get it.. That is what the law was intended to do. To show us WE ARE DEAD.
No. the law is the problem. We can;t fullfill it. thus we are dead because of it. The law kills. Jesus saves. But if you want to keep trying to save yourself by the law. by all means do so.
This makes no sense. Not sure why your trying to say here.
I will ask you this.
which is more biblical? which one is saved?
The one who is saved by grace through faith, and does what he can to follow God. but knows he will fail. thus never stops trying.
or the one who is saved by faith, and then uses the law to keep his salvation in tact so he does not lose it?
2. Those who are born again WILL BE OBEDIENT! Not perfect.
3. How good is good enough? According to scripture. perfection. If you have not attained this, you have already failed to meet the mark required by God.
thus it is you who is apposed to scripture. Because you state obedience is not required for salvation. then in the same breath, you state it is.. You contradict yourself.
You finally get it.. That is what the law was intended to do. To show us WE ARE DEAD.
No. the law is the problem. We can;t fullfill it. thus we are dead because of it. The law kills. Jesus saves. But if you want to keep trying to save yourself by the law. by all means do so.
This makes no sense. Not sure why your trying to say here.
I will ask you this.
which is more biblical? which one is saved?
The one who is saved by grace through faith, and does what he can to follow God. but knows he will fail. thus never stops trying.
or the one who is saved by faith, and then uses the law to keep his salvation in tact so he does not lose it?
No, this is what I have said all along.
That simply does not line up with scripture...
The Law is not the killer, sin is and sin is the transgression of the Law. Paul says this about the Law...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines sin but is not sin.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Commandment and sin are not one in the same. Sin does the killing...
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law is NOT the problem...
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Now read the rest of the verse, it is sin (the breaking of the Law) that is the problem.
You have stated numerous times that...
So, does this apply to you? Have you ever sinned? Have you ever disobeyed? If the answer is yes, you are cursed. Unless you have repented and received forgiveness. You somehow try to imply because of this statement that the Law no longer is in place and force. Yes it is.
Which is the underlying theme I have stated in now 1882 posts. We are saved by grace through faith and that is the faith of Christ, not our own. Grace si not universally extended to those who refuse to obey God. He does not lavish this wonderful gift on anyone who repeatedly sins wilfully without a heart to repent and obey...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
To disregard the enormity of sin and continue in it in a wilfull manner brings death for eternity.
I have never said that the act of obedience to the Law keeps salvation in tact. What I have said is that God gives the gifr of salvation to those who obey, who have a heart to obey Him. He does not extend this gift to one who wilfully disregards and wilfully disobeys.
That simply does not line up with scripture...
The Law is not the killer, sin is and sin is the transgression of the Law. Paul says this about the Law...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines sin but is not sin.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Commandment and sin are not one in the same. Sin does the killing...
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law is NOT the problem...
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Now read the rest of the verse, it is sin (the breaking of the Law) that is the problem.
You have stated numerous times that...
So, does this apply to you? Have you ever sinned? Have you ever disobeyed? If the answer is yes, you are cursed. Unless you have repented and received forgiveness. You somehow try to imply because of this statement that the Law no longer is in place and force. Yes it is.
Which is the underlying theme I have stated in now 1882 posts. We are saved by grace through faith and that is the faith of Christ, not our own. Grace si not universally extended to those who refuse to obey God. He does not lavish this wonderful gift on anyone who repeatedly sins wilfully without a heart to repent and obey...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
To disregard the enormity of sin and continue in it in a wilfull manner brings death for eternity.
I have never said that the act of obedience to the Law keeps salvation in tact. What I have said is that God gives the gifr of salvation to those who obey, who have a heart to obey Him. He does not extend this gift to one who wilfully disregards and wilfully disobeys.
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"Yahweh" = Theos
"heaven" = ouranos
The Greek text of Mt 5:19 is ouranos, it is not Theos.
Let's not alter the text.
And I note that both are in the kingdom of heaven.
And "lawlessness" (anomia) is "unrighteousness" (2Co 6:14), which is the true meaning of the word
in Mt 7:23.
"Unless"= ektos ei me
"Until" = heos
The Greek text is heos, it is not ektos ei me.
Let's not alter the text to support our theology.
And the Mosaic law has not failed to do that for which it was given, to reveal sin and
powerlessness to be righteous, and to reveal the remedy in the Christ.
Having done these things, the Mosaic law is now fulfilled, and necessarily set aside (Heb 7:18-19)
because the Aaronic priesthood on which it was based has been changed (Heb 7:12) and
replaced with the priesthood of Melchizedek, where the High Priest is also King,
and the Mosaic law has been replaced with the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which has
no curse attached (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10) and accomplishes the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).
"heaven" = ouranos
The Greek text of Mt 5:19 is ouranos, it is not Theos.
Let's not alter the text.
And I note that both are in the kingdom of heaven.
And "lawlessness" (anomia) is "unrighteousness" (2Co 6:14), which is the true meaning of the word
in Mt 7:23.
"Unless"= ektos ei me
"Until" = heos
The Greek text is heos, it is not ektos ei me.
Let's not alter the text to support our theology.
And the Mosaic law has not failed to do that for which it was given, to reveal sin and
powerlessness to be righteous, and to reveal the remedy in the Christ.
Having done these things, the Mosaic law is now fulfilled, and necessarily set aside (Heb 7:18-19)
because the Aaronic priesthood on which it was based has been changed (Heb 7:12) and
replaced with the priesthood of Melchizedek, where the High Priest is also King,
and the Mosaic law has been replaced with the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which has
no curse attached (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10) and accomplishes the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).
And let's not forget the NT revelation that the law is written on the heart of the believer, and
he needs no written code to tell him how to love, anymore than a mother needs a written code
to tell her not to let her child play in the street, or go in the cold without his coat, or. . .
Love fulfills (accomplishes) the law written on our hearts (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10), which is the
law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), minus the curse of the Mosaic law attached (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10)
for not keeping "every word."
he needs no written code to tell him how to love, anymore than a mother needs a written code
to tell her not to let her child play in the street, or go in the cold without his coat, or. . .
Love fulfills (accomplishes) the law written on our hearts (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10), which is the
law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), minus the curse of the Mosaic law attached (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10)
for not keeping "every word."
But with no power accompanying them to enable obedience.
So all the Mosaic law can do is condemn.
The law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), however, comes with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit for obedience to all who believe in Jesus Christ, and who do not rely on the law for, but on the gift of, righteousness (Ro 5:17).
So all the Mosaic law can do is condemn.
The law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), however, comes with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit for obedience to all who believe in Jesus Christ, and who do not rely on the law for, but on the gift of, righteousness (Ro 5:17).
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E
Then why do you keep preaching we must obey the law. or lose salvation? Which would contradict this thing you claim you have been saying all along?
if the law proves we are not worthy. how could we ever be worthy? it would continue to do what it was intended to do. so if we could never be worthy, how could we ever fall from worthy to unworthy?
You totally missed the point paul was trying to make.
without the law I was alive, With the law. the command came to life and i died. why? all have sinned.
The law is good holy and just. If I obey it completely, I will save myself. The problem is, I have not, Can not, and will not. so all it can do is condemn me.
lol. Yes, it did kill me, it did prove I needed to repent. And continues to prove I have not met the mark of God, and still am unworthy.
Why do you think you can be worthy? The law is not doing to you what it was intended to do. You still evidently think you are lawfull enough to not lose salvation. And still refuse to acknowledge that the law STILL condemns you to this day.
your right. God will not save them.
where your wrong is saying God ever saved them in the first place. Do you think God does not know your life completely the moment you call out on him, from birth to death? You seem to think God us unknowing. He is going to give you eternal life. Then one day figure out your not going to obey him, and thus be forced to take his gift back (which would not make it a gift by the way, but a downpayment)
Where we differ is you think God saved someone he KNOWS will not obey, I KNOW God never saved them to begin with.,
Those saved will change.. why? they had true repentnance, and faith in God. Those who have mere belief, but no faith, will not obey, why? they never repented in the first place.
To disregard the enormity of sin and continue in a willfull manner proves you HAD NO FAITH, and NEVER REPENTED. Thus God never SAVED YOU TO BEGIN WITH. These people do not lose salvation. THEY NEVER HAD IT TO BEGIN WITH. PROVEN BY THE FACT THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND or DISREGARD (as you put it) THE LAW (SIN)
Sorry for yelling, I hope it sinks in! I do not know any other way of showing it to you
So you do believe in eternal security? and the fact that once God, who knows everything you will ever do in your life. and sees your trust in him, will give you the gift of eternal life. and you can never lose it?
If you do. then forgive me. But I know you do not.. So My words still stand.
if the law proves we are not worthy. how could we ever be worthy? it would continue to do what it was intended to do. so if we could never be worthy, how could we ever fall from worthy to unworthy?
You totally missed the point paul was trying to make.
without the law I was alive, With the law. the command came to life and i died. why? all have sinned.
The law is good holy and just. If I obey it completely, I will save myself. The problem is, I have not, Can not, and will not. so all it can do is condemn me.
lol. Yes, it did kill me, it did prove I needed to repent. And continues to prove I have not met the mark of God, and still am unworthy.
Why do you think you can be worthy? The law is not doing to you what it was intended to do. You still evidently think you are lawfull enough to not lose salvation. And still refuse to acknowledge that the law STILL condemns you to this day.
your right. God will not save them.
where your wrong is saying God ever saved them in the first place. Do you think God does not know your life completely the moment you call out on him, from birth to death? You seem to think God us unknowing. He is going to give you eternal life. Then one day figure out your not going to obey him, and thus be forced to take his gift back (which would not make it a gift by the way, but a downpayment)
Where we differ is you think God saved someone he KNOWS will not obey, I KNOW God never saved them to begin with.,
Those saved will change.. why? they had true repentnance, and faith in God. Those who have mere belief, but no faith, will not obey, why? they never repented in the first place.
To disregard the enormity of sin and continue in a willfull manner proves you HAD NO FAITH, and NEVER REPENTED. Thus God never SAVED YOU TO BEGIN WITH. These people do not lose salvation. THEY NEVER HAD IT TO BEGIN WITH. PROVEN BY THE FACT THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND or DISREGARD (as you put it) THE LAW (SIN)
Sorry for yelling, I hope it sinks in! I do not know any other way of showing it to you
So you do believe in eternal security? and the fact that once God, who knows everything you will ever do in your life. and sees your trust in him, will give you the gift of eternal life. and you can never lose it?
If you do. then forgive me. But I know you do not.. So My words still stand.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
My suggestion is that you take it up with the author.
Obedience does not make us worthy, obedience is the condition God puts on the gift of salvation...
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
No one has ever said that if one obeys the Law they will save themselves. What has been said is that if we obey (to the best of our ability) God will save us. He does not save the unrepentant sinner. Or perhaps you believe that He does?
So you continue in the deeds that made you unworthy? You just continue to break the Law?
No, I think that I am dead meat without Christ. So, let's just view it from this statement you just made. Do you assume that one who wilfully continues to break the Law will be saved?
Funny you should say that...
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
earnest:
G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.
Where we differ is that you believe in predestination and I do not. I believe that God can and does CHOOSE to not know certain things. If He chose to know ahead of time, we have no choice. It is already decided and that is not the case. Here is one famous person's example that proves this...
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
He did not know until He put Abraham to the test. If God already knows, then what is the point of tests and trials in our life?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Why do this if He already knows?
Predestined to fail? Sorry 'bout yer luck? Doesn't work that way, if it did, we have no choice. Might as well do whatever I want, I am predestined to anyway and I can't change it? Then if that is the case, there is no repentance, repentance is change.
So, proves they were predestined for death for all eternity? They had no say in the matter? No choice whatsoever?
So you do believe in eternal security? and the fact that once God, who knows everything you will ever do in your life. and sees your trust in him, will give you the gift of eternal life. and you can never lose it?
If you do. then forgive me. But I know you do not.. So My words still stand.[/QUOTE]
Here is the crux of the matter, I do not believe in OSAS neither do I believe in predestination. I have free moral agency and can choose. The Bible is repleat with the command to choose...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The author of Hebrews plainly shows that one can fall away and lose his/her salvation...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Notice they were once enlightened? Notice they were once partakers of the Holy Spirit?
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Tasted of salvation?
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Whoa there, it says if they fall away, they cannot be renewed to repentance. Change. Determining to obey instead of disobey.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
After they had received the knowlede of the truth. There remains no more sacrifice, implying there was a sacrifice for their sins.
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
They had been sanctified but then did despite to the Spirit of grace.
The author (Paul) plainly shows here that one can lose their salvation.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
My suggestion is that you take it up with the author.
Obedience does not make us worthy, obedience is the condition God puts on the gift of salvation...
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
No one has ever said that if one obeys the Law they will save themselves. What has been said is that if we obey (to the best of our ability) God will save us. He does not save the unrepentant sinner. Or perhaps you believe that He does?
So you continue in the deeds that made you unworthy? You just continue to break the Law?
No, I think that I am dead meat without Christ. So, let's just view it from this statement you just made. Do you assume that one who wilfully continues to break the Law will be saved?
Funny you should say that...
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
earnest:
G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.
Where we differ is that you believe in predestination and I do not. I believe that God can and does CHOOSE to not know certain things. If He chose to know ahead of time, we have no choice. It is already decided and that is not the case. Here is one famous person's example that proves this...
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
He did not know until He put Abraham to the test. If God already knows, then what is the point of tests and trials in our life?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Why do this if He already knows?
Predestined to fail? Sorry 'bout yer luck? Doesn't work that way, if it did, we have no choice. Might as well do whatever I want, I am predestined to anyway and I can't change it? Then if that is the case, there is no repentance, repentance is change.
So, proves they were predestined for death for all eternity? They had no say in the matter? No choice whatsoever?
So you do believe in eternal security? and the fact that once God, who knows everything you will ever do in your life. and sees your trust in him, will give you the gift of eternal life. and you can never lose it?
If you do. then forgive me. But I know you do not.. So My words still stand.[/QUOTE]
Here is the crux of the matter, I do not believe in OSAS neither do I believe in predestination. I have free moral agency and can choose. The Bible is repleat with the command to choose...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The author of Hebrews plainly shows that one can fall away and lose his/her salvation...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Notice they were once enlightened? Notice they were once partakers of the Holy Spirit?
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Tasted of salvation?
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Whoa there, it says if they fall away, they cannot be renewed to repentance. Change. Determining to obey instead of disobey.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
After they had received the knowlede of the truth. There remains no more sacrifice, implying there was a sacrifice for their sins.
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
They had been sanctified but then did despite to the Spirit of grace.
The author (Paul) plainly shows here that one can lose their salvation.
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I'm sure that the arguments on this thread will never be resolved. I've seen it before in a thread that had over one thousand posts. And the beat goes on. If there is a division in the ranks, then there is a division between the sheep and the goats. That scares me. I suppose that's the fear of the Lord.
Hebrews 4:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Psalm 95:7-11 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Put it together. All included.
Hebrews 4:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Psalm 95:7-11 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Put it together. All included.
E
Ok lets do that. There is non good but God. That counts every one of us out. So why do you continue to think you are good?
As for rev, we have been there. Those who ARE saved do this, Those who are not will not. So your point is lost completely on par with scripture.
No. Only people who preach law claim this. Scripture states there is only one way to be obedient enough to earn salvation. That is sinless perfection. Only one man fulfilled this (as per the law) again, that would count every one of us out.
here you go
eph 1. - Goven to those who do what God commands. HAVE FAITH IN HIM. And they are SEALED with the HS forever, and that is the guarantee of their eternity.
Acts. Who obey him. Have faith in the gospel. The gospel is faith. Not works. If your trying to work (like you are) your not obeying God. Your instead of trying to obey the law. And still fail to see the law still condemns you.
lol. Obey to the best of your ability?? News flash.
1. Your depending on your ability (self) to obey, And not on the work of the cross. That is why you boast. You should humble yourself, instead of claiming all this pride.
2. You can to the best of your ability try to obey the law. You would still fall short. The standard is perfection. Anything which falls short results in condemnation apart from Christ and his FINISHED work on the cross.
3. What is repentance? it is true humility. It means you stop trying to save yourself. You stop lying to yourself that your good enough, You do not need God. or you stop lying to yourself that you have the ability to try your best to be good. and God will save you. It means you give it ALL TO GOD. It is obvious by your statement you still have not done this.
4. Those who have TRULY repented. will obey. why? The KNOW they are sinners. They KNOW the sin they have has separated them from God. They KNOW God has reasons he says no. and it is not to be a slavemaster. And finally. The have the HS in them, who can resist the chastening of the HS?? I can't.
Your the one claiming people continue in these deeds. Your not listening to anyone. Why would they continue? if they truly repented. THEY WOULD NOT CONTINUE.. The only people who continue is people who do not have faith. Thus they were never saved..
Why do yo continue to excuse your sin while judging others? You must do this, because your saying your sin is not as condemning as theres.. Thus your more worthy?> says who?? Not God. Not the law. The law condemns you, and will till the day you die
No you don't. You just admited if you try to obey God he will save you. Meaning if you do not. God will not save you. Your still relying on self. Not God. Your lying to yourself and you can't see it. No one who is saved will willfully sin, As paul said, it is not I who sin, but the flesh which resides in me. SOmetimes I am not strong enough to resist. And I fail. The difference is, i admit it, Confess it and move on. And hope next time, I find power in Christ. Where you refuse to admit it, and evidently think it is not such a bad sin to make you unworthy.
Why? do you think he did it for his own purpose? You evidently have such a small view of God. He did not do it for his purpose. He did it for abrahams purpose. It made ABRAHAM's faith stronger. God knew what he would do.
Yes I do believe in predestination. That is what the bible teaches. He choses based on his knowledge..If you do not believ this. You call the word of God a liar. and the omniscience of God a lie..
Wrong predestination. I am not calvanist. Thus your argiument does not work. Try arging against what I believe, Not what you percieve I believe.
ALot of fluff we have been over. So lets stick to a few points why don't we.
ps. I believe in free will also. I just also believe God knows everything I would ever do before I was even born. I will not, and can not suprise God by my actions. Which you evidently believe we can.
Again, I am not a calvanist. And would appreciate it if you would stop assuming I am!
As for rev, we have been there. Those who ARE saved do this, Those who are not will not. So your point is lost completely on par with scripture.
No. Only people who preach law claim this. Scripture states there is only one way to be obedient enough to earn salvation. That is sinless perfection. Only one man fulfilled this (as per the law) again, that would count every one of us out.
here you go
eph 1. - Goven to those who do what God commands. HAVE FAITH IN HIM. And they are SEALED with the HS forever, and that is the guarantee of their eternity.
Acts. Who obey him. Have faith in the gospel. The gospel is faith. Not works. If your trying to work (like you are) your not obeying God. Your instead of trying to obey the law. And still fail to see the law still condemns you.
lol. Obey to the best of your ability?? News flash.
1. Your depending on your ability (self) to obey, And not on the work of the cross. That is why you boast. You should humble yourself, instead of claiming all this pride.
2. You can to the best of your ability try to obey the law. You would still fall short. The standard is perfection. Anything which falls short results in condemnation apart from Christ and his FINISHED work on the cross.
3. What is repentance? it is true humility. It means you stop trying to save yourself. You stop lying to yourself that your good enough, You do not need God. or you stop lying to yourself that you have the ability to try your best to be good. and God will save you. It means you give it ALL TO GOD. It is obvious by your statement you still have not done this.
4. Those who have TRULY repented. will obey. why? The KNOW they are sinners. They KNOW the sin they have has separated them from God. They KNOW God has reasons he says no. and it is not to be a slavemaster. And finally. The have the HS in them, who can resist the chastening of the HS?? I can't.
Your the one claiming people continue in these deeds. Your not listening to anyone. Why would they continue? if they truly repented. THEY WOULD NOT CONTINUE.. The only people who continue is people who do not have faith. Thus they were never saved..
Why do yo continue to excuse your sin while judging others? You must do this, because your saying your sin is not as condemning as theres.. Thus your more worthy?> says who?? Not God. Not the law. The law condemns you, and will till the day you die
No you don't. You just admited if you try to obey God he will save you. Meaning if you do not. God will not save you. Your still relying on self. Not God. Your lying to yourself and you can't see it. No one who is saved will willfully sin, As paul said, it is not I who sin, but the flesh which resides in me. SOmetimes I am not strong enough to resist. And I fail. The difference is, i admit it, Confess it and move on. And hope next time, I find power in Christ. Where you refuse to admit it, and evidently think it is not such a bad sin to make you unworthy.
Why? do you think he did it for his own purpose? You evidently have such a small view of God. He did not do it for his purpose. He did it for abrahams purpose. It made ABRAHAM's faith stronger. God knew what he would do.
Yes I do believe in predestination. That is what the bible teaches. He choses based on his knowledge..If you do not believ this. You call the word of God a liar. and the omniscience of God a lie..
Wrong predestination. I am not calvanist. Thus your argiument does not work. Try arging against what I believe, Not what you percieve I believe.
ALot of fluff we have been over. So lets stick to a few points why don't we.
ps. I believe in free will also. I just also believe God knows everything I would ever do before I was even born. I will not, and can not suprise God by my actions. Which you evidently believe we can.
Again, I am not a calvanist. And would appreciate it if you would stop assuming I am!
D
Those who insist on obeying Mosaic law place themselves on shaky ground. The Mosaic laws were to show us we are sinners. The new covenant is accepting righteousness imputed to us thru Christ. If you try to blend the old with the new you are severed from Christ who set us free from the Mosaic laws (gal.5:4).
You can not pour new wine into old wine skins or you will lose both.
You can not pour new wine into old wine skins or you will lose both.
Galatians 5:13-15 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Here are the instructions, or (hear the instructions) of how to love your neighbor. God describes and identifies an attitude we are to have toward others.
Leviticus 19:1-18 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Here are the instructions, or (hear the instructions) of how to love your neighbor. God describes and identifies an attitude we are to have toward others.
Leviticus 19:1-18 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Related scripture to previous post # 877
Genesis 2:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Mark 8:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Acts 15:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Luke 13:32-33 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Genesis 2:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Mark 8:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Acts 15:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Luke 13:32-33 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
It is to remember what God has does in our the previous 6 days of the week, and remember His perfection of all creation. It is related to entering into his rest. According to what I have read, no one really knows the correct Sabbath day from creation. That doesn't give us the right to neglect the Spiritual meaning thereof. There is a reason for everything that God instituted. We surely should not neglect any part of it. It's all Spiritual, for God is a Spirit.
John 4:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.