What Laws are still valid to christians

[eternally-gratefull]

unless you admit to yourself that something is wrong that spirit of bondage would never leave you... some people are in bondage to the 10 commandments and can't admit it or see pass it, the fact that my fellow brothers and sisters are bring facts, written word.. from the bible that explains everything we talking about but yet you can't see to accept it would tell you soemthing, it's like telling someone with an addiction that they are addicted they would try to justify themselves but in the end run straight back where they started, why would they do that, despite knowing that, smoking kills, it's the spirit of bondage that keeping them like that.. alot of people have that same spirit of bondage also the fact that you can't accept the written word of God should tell you something, over the past few months i've made countless trades showing everyone through the scriptures what i was saying was the truth, but they just can't accept it DESPITE SEEING IT WITH THEIR eyes and reading it for themselves, i wonder why.

the problem is most legalists are not so readily seen like your friends.

Most are like the pharisees. If you put them up on a stage with most people. You would easily say they are righteous and love thier God. They obey the law (one can not find fault) because they do not commit the open sins we all like to speak about. They are active in the community. They go to church whenever the doors are opened. The openly hate evil and sinful people. etc etc.

When in reality, They can not see THEY TOO are law breakers. and totally worthy of death apart from the grace of God through the blood of Christ.

 

[Josh321]

the problem is most legalists are not so readily seen like your friends.

Most are like the pharisees. If you put them up on a stage with most people. You would easily say they are righteous and love thier God. They obey the law (one can not find fault) because they do not commit the open sins we all like to speak about. They are active in the community. They go to church whenever the doors are opened. The openly hate evil and sinful people. etc etc.

When in reality, They can not see THEY TOO are law breakers. and totally worthy of death apart from the grace of God through the blood of Christ.

the fact of the matter is, some of them admitted to me.. Josh i'm addicted to sex and alcohol.. shouldn't that say enough, what i mean is how can you tell sinners to follow though shalt not this and that, when by nature.. they do the things contained in the law, if we suppose to follow that then christ had no need to die then because we all would be save by following it.. that is why.. christ fulfills the commandments through his death and the receiving of the holy spirit

 

[Elin]

Yet because of flesh, it can try to make void the Law as to not be guilty and still harm others as in I am forgiven, so why not drink up all the wine, eat all the food wit no regard to others that might not have food in their homes. And have many more problems that Paul addressed to the Corinthians. Many are still Carnal and do make voids the Law, so they have an excuse to use the grace to harm others without the care that God gives in and through God's Spirit.

Ah, I believe the light went on.

Are you saying those who say that

the law which is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10),
is not the Mosaic law with its curse (Dt 27:26),
but is Christ's law of love, which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10),

are nullifying the law in order to nullify their guilt of sin?

Are you saying that Heb 8:8-11 is not a direct quote from Jer 31:31-34?

And are you saying that the word for Law in Jer 31:33 in not Torah? Or are you just saying that it is, but it really means something else?

Non-responsive. . .

 

[john832]

Non-responsive. . .

What a responsive reply.

 

[just-me]

So the law that was changed and "set aside because it was weak and useless

to make righteous" (Heb 7:18-19) was just the one law establishing the Levitical priesthood?

The rest of the law was still useful and powerful to make righteous?

Your explanation does not fit the text.

The whole law was weak and useless to make righteous, not just the law establishing the Levitical priesthood.

The law was weak because of the weakness of the flesh, not because God reconnoitered, and found He had to change a whole bunch of stuff in the law. I'm sure that Jesus, when receiving the responsibility of the Priesthood, knew He had to make it clear that nothing in the law would be change by His own Words. It was a jot or tittle thing ya know. We've been through this before, so there is no reason to ask any questions of me on this issue, for you already know what I firmly believe. I think I remember asking you a question that you might have missed. The question was; would you agree with me that Jesus actually gave the law to Moses?

 

[cfultz3]

I don't want to be picky, nor try to confuse you, but now that you've got the basic concept,
perhaps you will be able to see that it's a little more than just a static statement,
it's an active working, an operation.

My sinful nature compels me to sin until I am born again.
If it did not, I could have been sinless without a Savior.

My mind desires to obey God after I'm born again.

My sinful nature wars with my mind (spirit) after I'm born again.

The actions of sinning cause death.

The "law of. . ." is more than just a static statement, it is an active working; i.e., a power.

Hope I haven't muddied clear waters.

You have not

Law is dynamic.

The Law of my Members forces (urges, leads) me to please my bodily members.
The Law of Sin forces my sin nature to be in rebellion towards God.
etc....

Basically, I believe you are saying and this is what I believe, a particular law governs the "rules" God set in place for that particular law.

God spoke the governing rules and opposing consequences for gravity.
God spoke the governing rules and opposing consequences of morality.
etc....

If one break a particular rule of a law, there are consequences to be faced because that God-ordained law has force behind it.

Simple put, "accordingly"

 

[just-me]

Now. I ask again, I still do not have clarification as to what yo meant by separation? and would like you to revisit the examples I gave, not just the one example. Does a friend not relate in other areas, even though one area might cause a separation ()when doing those things)

Walls seprate, and sin is a wall. What separates you from me are the differences that are continuous and will not be reconciled. It's like the thing in congress. I want it my way or there will be no talks of mutual understanding. What separates God from us are the differences that are continuous and will not be reconciled. To clarify even more. We recognize, because of the indwelling Spirit, that we battle with the carnal, and that carnal nature is always going to be there until the day we die. Not His fault, but ours. Hope that's plain enough. If you can't understand that after explaining it in three different ways, I come to the conclusion that you never intended to see the truth of this subject. I rest on this subject with you. May GBU

 

[homwardbound]

In reading the comments made by all that are here, I see something that I believe all would agree on. If we can’t agree, then I can clearly understand why we have these differences of how God works in our personal lives. The following is what works for me.

1.Works of righteousness without first believing in the salvation of Christ Jesus, and the giving of His Holy Spirit, are vanity, and worthless

2.After receiving the gift of eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit causes us to recognize the immense love of God toward us.

3.By the Holy Spirit, we understand that the flesh, and old nature continues to raise its ugly head, and we have a battle within ourselves, wanting to love God, as He desires.

4.We have entered into a relationship with God, through Christ Jesus, and know, if our old nature has its way, we will be separated from Him until we ask for forgiveness, and be conquerors of the old nature through Him.

5.As we walk in the path of salvation, we will be conformed into His image and likeness.

6. Paul died daily and we are also given that strength to fight. We continue to pick up our cross daily, and follow, day by day, doing the works of the Holy Spirit, and being cleaned up as God has predestined.

7. To know what is correct, we understand that we should study God's Word, to show ourselves what is acceptable in the sight of God

I agree with all said except for no. 4.
We are by God forgiven, through the shed blood of Christ, and there are no more sacrifices to be given to anyone for anymore forgiveness to be executed from God to us, anyone.
There is no shedding of blood and therefore there is no more forgiveness since blood is required for any forgiveness to be given.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The sacrifice of Christ was done once and for all, to those that come to believe God, are through the cross made Holy:
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

What was that for? So we CAN BE PRESENTED TO WHO? Father, so Father then seeing no sin, and rebirths us, as in dead to flesh sin and alive to God in the Spirit of God, as Holy in his sight, and we are his and no one can snatch us out of his hand.
Now if we do sin as many still do we have Christ as our mediator that has past tense forgiven us, so we can approach the throne of Grace in confidence, not to ask for more forgiveness, to ask God where we messed up at, as saying thank you Christ for already forgiving me back at the cross, now Father will you please teach me how to say no to this stupid thing I did and walk humbly, loving the Mercy that I never want to take for granted.
And do you think you will be taught to walk as Christ walked or not?
So do you see that No. 4 is the flesh in the way.

Better yet find me anywhere in the New Testament, after the death of Christ on the cross, anyone states to ask for forgiveness over and over if we sin again? 1 john 1:9 does not state to ask again and again, it states to believe, receive and then walk as he walked by Faith. No where does it say to it over and over again, after one believes and thus receives
Just some good searching to find anywhere one is to ask for more forgiveness after receiving the forgiveness provided from God at the cross. I have not found it yet, after his death, before all over the place, but not after

 

[Elin]

What was the partition?

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

From top to bottom...

That's quite an exegetical leap.

The curtain in the Holy Place was not the partition of Eph 2:15 between the Jews and the Gentiles.

It was the partition between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place.
It had nothing to do with the Gentiles, and the partition of Eph 2:15 between the Gentiles and the Jews.

What did the veil do? It kept humans from accessing the Holy of Holies (the pattern {Heb 8:5} of God's throne).

Your knowledge of Leviticus limps a little (not trying to be snarky).

The people weren't even allowed in the Holy Place.
The veil was not to separate the people from the Holy of Holies.

It was to separate the High Priest from the Holy of Holies on a daily basis,
and allowed his entrance therein only once a year on the Day of Atonement.

The people entered the Holy of Holies through their High Priest once a year.
They never entered either the Holy Place or the Holy of Holies.
(See Nadab and Abihu.)

And in the NT, our entrance into the Holy of Holies is still through our High Priest.
There is no other way to enter (Jn 14:6).

Your misunderstanding of Leviticus causes you to incorrectly apply the partition of Eph 2:15 to Jesus.

Jesus abolished the partition, he was not the partition.

The partition of Eph 2:15 is the law which separated the Jews from the unclean Gentiles.

Jesus made peace between the Jews and Gentiles in Eph 2:15 by abolishing that partition.

 

[Elin]

unless you admit to yourself that something is wrong that spirit of bondage would never leave you... some people are in bondage to the 10 commandments and can't admit it or see pass it, the fact that my fellow brothers and sisters are bring facts, written word.. from the bible that explains everything we talking about but yet you can't see to accept it would tell you soemthing, it's like telling someone with an addiction that they are addicted they would try to justify themselves but in the end run straight back where they started, why would they do that, despite knowing that, smoking kills, it's the spirit of bondage that keeping them like that.. alot of people have that same spirit of bondage also the fact that you can't accept the written word of God should tell you something, over the past few months i've made countless trades showing everyone through the scriptures what i was saying was the truth, but they just can't accept it DESPITE SEEING IT WITH THEIR eyes and reading it for themselves, i wonder why.

Blindness keeps us from seeing the Scriptures.

But not all blindness is fatal to salvation, although some is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The law was weak because of the weakness of the flesh, not because God reconnoitered, and found He had to change a whole bunch of stuff in the law. I'm sure that Jesus, when receiving the responsibility of the Priesthood, knew He had to make it clear that nothing in the law would be change by His own Words. It was a jot or tittle thing ya know. We've been through this before, so there is no reason to ask any questions of me on this issue, for you already know what I firmly believe. I think I remember asking you a question that you might have missed. The question was; would you agree with me that Jesus actually gave the law to Moses?

would disagree

the law is weak and that it can not save us, While the weakness of the flesh is the reason. this is not why the law is called weak in scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Walls seprate, and sin is a wall. What separates you from me are the differences that are continuous and will not be reconciled. It's like the thing in congress. I want it my way or there will be no talks of mutual understanding. What separates God from us are the differences that are continuous and will not be reconciled. To clarify even more. We recognize, because of the indwelling Spirit, that we battle with the carnal, and that carnal nature is always going to be there until the day we die. Not His fault, but ours. Hope that's plain enough. If you can't understand that after explaining it in three different ways, I come to the conclusion that you never intended to see the truth of this subject. I rest on this subject with you. May GBU

lol. No. I can;t see because you have not given an answer.

Does separation mean one loses salvation and must be restored (ie, if they die while in that state of separation, does that mean they are doomed to an eternity in hell?

I am quite surprised at you. I am quite sure you understood completely that that is what I was asking!

 

[homwardbound]

Originally Posted by just-me

In reading the comments made by all that are here, I see something that I believe all would agree on. If we can’t agree, then I can clearly understand why we have these differences of how God works in our personal lives. The following is what works for me.

1.Works of righteousness without first believing in the salvation of Christ Jesus, and the giving of His Holy Spirit, are vanity, and worthless

2.After receiving the gift of eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit causes us to recognize the immense love of God toward us.

3.By the Holy Spirit, we understand that the flesh, and old nature continues to raise its ugly head, and we have a battle within ourselves, wanting to love God, as He desires.

4.We have entered into a relationship with God, through Christ Jesus, and know, if our old nature has its way, we will be separated from Him until we ask for forgiveness, and be conquerors of the old nature through Him.

5.As we walk in the path of salvation, we will be conformed into His image and likeness.


6. Paul died daily and we are also given that strength to fight. We continue to pick up our cross daily, and follow, day by day, doing the works of the Holy Spirit, and being cleaned up as God has predestined.



If it is brought to our attention that we are doing wrong, and we haven't the desire to change our ways, we are flipping God off (in short).

Romans 6:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Acts 17:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

A friendship flourishes with mutual understanding. When a person does their own thing with their friends disapproval, that persons friend will not participate in what they disapprove of, henceforth the relationship is lost until there can be a reconciliation.

Did you or have you not caught what Paul is saying. since you have been baptized, by God, you have been born again dead to sin. do you believe this? or maybe not since you still sin and trying very hard not to. Could it be because you do not believe you are dead to sin by the death of Christ? that this is how ones flesh keeps control of us, to sin
just think do not sin and what do you do? I know what I did, my emotions took over and did exactly what I did not want to do. and in being guilty repented over and over again, not ever seeing or understanding this verse below:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

One's emotions, do they know right or wrong? Go to a scary movie and see how your emotions respond, to that movie, even though you know it is not real, one's emotions do not know the difference.
So maybe now you might see, that all you have to do is not want to do sin, and your emotions will produce it.
there is another catch to this as well, it is when one does do as one wants to do. Whom is it from and what does this do?
Yes causes self-righteousness, As Saul had.
And now Paul has said what he found through this self-righteousness.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Elin]

So the law that was changed and "set aside because it was weak and useless

to make righteous" (Heb 7:18-19) was just the one law establishing the Levitical priesthood?

The rest of the law was not set aside as weak and useless because it was still useful and powerful to make righteous?

Your explanation does not fit the text.

The whole law was weak and useless to make righteous, not just the law establishing the Levitical priesthood.

The law was weak because of the weakness of the flesh, not because God reconnoitered, and found He had to change a whole bunch of stuff in the law. I'm sure that Jesus, when receiving the responsibility of the Priesthood, knew He had to make it clear that nothing in the law would be change by His own Words. It was a jot or tittle thing ya know.
We've been through this before, so there is no reason to ask any questions of me on this issue, for you already know what I firmly believe.

Non-responsive.

I think I remember asking you a question that you might have missed. The question was;
would you agree with me that Jesus actually gave the law to Moses?

My answer was that (the enfleshment of the eternal Son--Jn 1:14, in) Jesus of Nazareth did not exist at the time the law was given to Moses.

 

[homwardbound]

Good scripture you present. This scriptreu reads true and doesn't read 'made of necessity changes (plural) also of the law.' Jesus said nothing would be changed. Not one thing. So in short, there is "a" change via the tribe of Judah.

Which reveals the Love of God through the Spirit of God, as was by Abrahamic Covenant that was made between God and Abram. The Law of Moses was 430 years later. God needed to show them their sinfulness and they never entered God's rest because of unbelief. They always sought after their own works for righteousness. As is why the Law of Moses was put in place after their release from captivity by God through Moses. They could never see the light, and Moses because God showed him the light in the coming Savior, that light shone so bright through him, that he had to wear a veil, so those that looked upon Moses would not burn up. They were afraid, and rightly so.
Today in Christ that veil is removed

 

[homwardbound]

Are you saying those who say that

the law which is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10),
is not the Mosaic law with its curse (Dt 27:26),
but is Christ's law of love, which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10),

are nullifying the law in order to nullify their guilt of sin?

Do you know the NT?

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Not sure here what you are interpreting as to what is said about taking advantage of God's amazing grace.

But I will say this that Laws of Love are written in our new hearts given to us by God from God through the full Gospel of the cross, death, and resurrection, includes ascension, in order to ever receive the Holy Ghost as one's lead into all truth that SETS ONE FREE

 

[Elin]

Not sure here what you are interpreting as to what is said about taking advantage of God's amazing grace.

But I will say this that Laws of Love are written in our new hearts given to us by God from God through the full Gospel of the cross, death, and resurrection, includes ascension, in order to ever receive the Holy Ghost as one's lead into all truth that SETS ONE FREE

I was referring to this:

"Yet because of flesh, it can try to make void the Law as to not be guilty"

and to john's response that "the light went on,"

and asking john if he were saying that
the reason believers say they are no longer under the law is because they want to avoid guilt of their sin.

 

[just-me]

I thought that I would give it one more shot.

A father/son relationship. - The son goes against the fathers wishes.. are they now separated?

They are separated by the principles in which they hold as priority for the moment. Be careful not to interpret Spiritual understanding into physical descriptions. Parables were given to understand the Spiritual things by what people already know by the natural course of life, and the way people respond to each other.

Are you sure one who falls to temptation has no desire to change their ways? It would seem paul would disagree with this (rom 7)

I never came close to saying that if one falls into sin then the desire to repent vanishes also. I was describing the battle we all have within ourselves according to Romans chapter 7. If there is no conflict between the flesh and the Spirit, then the Spirit isn’t there, and then there is no desire to change, clarifying that salvation has not taken root.

Even in your friend example. Would they not still relate in other areas? or is their relationship severed completely?

God’s Word makes it clear that by continuing in His will, the relationship also continues. The big words “if” and “remain” make it clear that there is a stipulation. It comes right back to the beginning of what I said before. Dying daily, as Paul said of himself, is addressing the conflict within a Christian to be conformed into the image of Christ with a sincere understanding of who we really are. That makes a life of salvation a process of cleansing. It is an everlasting statute.
1 John 2:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Hebrews 6:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
It’s reasonable for a believer in Christ to always fight the flesh to present ourselves as acceptable. To purposefully continue in sins, that one is aware, makes the entire person unacceptable. Repentance and confession of known iniquity, and sinful natures, are to be presented to God as the sacrifice we offer to Him through Christ.

Romans 1:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


If we try to make excuses for what we see within ourselves, doing all we can to not to recognize it, we then are told those excuses don’t make it.

Acts 17:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[just-me]

would disagree

the law is weak and that it can not save us, While the weakness of the flesh is the reason. this is not why the law is called weak in scripture.

Why is the law weak? Was it both law and the flesh? Is the Word of God weak? It has to be one or the other as I see it.
I'll just present this
Romans 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought that I would give it one more shot.



They are separated by the principles in which they hold as priority for the moment. Be careful not to interpret Spiritual understanding into physical descriptions. Parables were given to understand the Spiritual things by what people already know by the natural course of life, and the way people respond to each other.

God uses the father son relationship all the time. I think it is a more than adequate example. which could hold biblically. God says we are not given a spirit of fear. But a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out Abba Father.. Scriptures like this is what I was referring too. This is the biblical aspect of my question.

I never came close to saying that if one falls into sin then the desire to repent vanishes also. I was describing the battle we all have within ourselves according to Romans chapter 7. If there is no conflict between the flesh and the Spirit, then the Spirit isn’t there, and then there is no desire to change, clarifying that salvation has not taken root.

ok. I must have misunderstood you. I did not get this at all from what you said. Sorry

God’s Word makes it clear that by continuing in His will, the relationship also continues. The big words “if” and “remain” make it clear that there is a stipulation. It comes right back to the beginning of what I said before. Dying daily, as Paul said of himself, is addressing the conflict within a Christian to be conformed into the image of Christ with a sincere understanding of who we really are. That makes a life of salvation a process of cleansing. It is an everlasting statute.
1 John 2:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Hebrews 6:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
It’s reasonable for a believer in Christ to always fight the flesh to present ourselves as acceptable. To purposefully continue in sins, that one is aware, makes the entire person unacceptable. Repentance and confession of known iniquity, and sinful natures, are to be presented to God as the sacrifice we offer to Him through Christ.

Romans 1:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


If we try to make excuses for what we see within ourselves, doing all we can to not to recognize it, we then are told those excuses don’t make it.

Acts 17:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So. If I am reading you right (I may not be) so forgive me if I am) A person who is saved, and made a child of God. but falls to temptation and knowingly continues in that sin would become unacceptable?