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I disagree. Obviously it's the people. But with religion, iit gives people irrational ideas about how the world works.
We are a product of our information. We act in accordance with how we believe the world and universe works.
You wouldn't step off the edge of a building because you know that gravity works and therefore alter your behavior because of it.
An apt analogy would be a car. A car by itself can do no harm, a car by itself has no use. But drive it, and you operate it with your knowledge of how the car works. And that car is dangerous even if you don't intent it to be.
Religion is a mechanism. A tool. Not everyone who uses this tool is dangerous, but irrationality of any kind is dangerous.
We are a product of our information. We act in accordance with how we believe the world and universe works.
You wouldn't step off the edge of a building because you know that gravity works and therefore alter your behavior because of it.
An apt analogy would be a car. A car by itself can do no harm, a car by itself has no use. But drive it, and you operate it with your knowledge of how the car works. And that car is dangerous even if you don't intent it to be.
Religion is a mechanism. A tool. Not everyone who uses this tool is dangerous, but irrationality of any kind is dangerous.
This is like blaming television and video-games for violence or blaming Mc'Donald's for being obese, instead of realizing that the only true problem lies in ourselves, in our hate, greed, stupidity and so on. The problem is only whithin people. Most of us watched Batman and still, only one (very disturbed one) went into a cinema to play the joker and start to kill everybody. Who is to blame for this irrational act? Christian Nolan?
Hypocrisy.
Fabrication.
"Beide, jawohl, beide christliche Konfessionen sehen dieser Entweihung und Zerstörung eines durch Gottes Gnade der Erde gegebenen edlen und einzigartigen Lebewesens gleichgültig zu. Für die Zukunft der Erde liegt aber die Bedeutung nicht darin, ob die Protestanten die Katholiken oder die Katholiken die Protestanten besiegen, sondern darin, ob der arische Mensch ihr erhalten bleibt oder ausstirbt."
--Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 (1926)
Fabrication.
"Beide, jawohl, beide christliche Konfessionen sehen dieser Entweihung und Zerstörung eines durch Gottes Gnade der Erde gegebenen edlen und einzigartigen Lebewesens gleichgültig zu. Für die Zukunft der Erde liegt aber die Bedeutung nicht darin, ob die Protestanten die Katholiken oder die Katholiken die Protestanten besiegen, sondern darin, ob der arische Mensch ihr erhalten bleibt oder ausstirbt."
--Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 (1926)
D
Billions of people?
Some how you turned 5,000 into billions. There was not 1 billion alive then and I can only assume that you have inflated these numbers out of shear ignorance mixed with religious hatred. The world population first hit one billion in 1820. Had "billions died, no human would of survived.
1) Galileo was kept under house arrest and was never tortured, not even one time. You are fabricating your facts.
2) The pope never said condoms spread Aids. Pope Benedict and Condoms: What He Did and Did Not Say
3) Here is a lie atheists and God haters love: Hitler was a Catholic". It is true that Hitler was raised Catholic. He even spoke like he believed in God in some of his speeches to win over the hearts and minds. But his private comments revealed Hitler hated Christianity.
I hope next time you post your "facts" you do a little research first
Some how you turned 5,000 into billions. There was not 1 billion alive then and I can only assume that you have inflated these numbers out of shear ignorance mixed with religious hatred. The world population first hit one billion in 1820. Had "billions died, no human would of survived.
1) Galileo was kept under house arrest and was never tortured, not even one time. You are fabricating your facts.
2) The pope never said condoms spread Aids. Pope Benedict and Condoms: What He Did and Did Not Say
3) Here is a lie atheists and God haters love: Hitler was a Catholic". It is true that Hitler was raised Catholic. He even spoke like he believed in God in some of his speeches to win over the hearts and minds. But his private comments revealed Hitler hated Christianity.
I hope next time you post your "facts" you do a little research first
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No need for name calling. Or rudeness.
It is my view that it is irrational to believe that a man rose from the dead. Or walked on water. Or, more relevantly, suspended the laws of nature. Like I said about Madeline Neumann's parents. They loved her. They wanted her to get well as much as anyone would. They just had a bad idea of how the world works. People might pray, but they also seek medical help. Prayer itself is ambiguous and not proven to result in healing. see Why God Won't Heal Amputees for more on this.
And its not like blaming McDonalds for you getting fat, or video games. Not entirely. I don't blame the gun for being misused, but I do think there should be gun control. The problem is that religion cannot be monitored, policed, regulated, etc., because everyone is free to use it. Not everyone is free to drive a car, buy a gun, fly a plane, etc.
It is my view that religion as a tool for how you operate in life is completely unnecessary. To me, religion is not responsible for morality (and if often very immoral. I've read the entire Bible. I was horrified and it was the reason I left my faith). It is possible to live completely free of god, guilt, and take responsibility for your own life - both the good and the bad.
D
I agree that withholding medical attention from children is criminal. Unfortunately you are broad brushing all of Christianity for the actions of the one girl's parents. I do not know of a single Christian who denied their children medical attention. You are clearly guilty of claiming the exception to a rule is the rule itself.
That is pure arrogant snobbery. You hate God so much you are willing to distort facts to prove your case.
That is pure arrogant snobbery. You hate God so much you are willing to distort facts to prove your case.
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Yes. Across history. Billions.
"Some how you turned 5,000 into billions. There was not 1 billion alive then and I can only assume that you have inflated these numbers out of shear ignorance mixed with religious hatred. The world population first hit one billion in 1820. Had "billions died, no human would of survived."
Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
1) Galileo was kept under house arrest and was never tortured, not even one time. You are fabricating your facts.
WAS GALILEO TORTURED? - Article - NYTimes.com. He was tortured until he recanted.
Vatican Science Panel Told By Pope - Galileo Was Right - NYTimes.com
2) The pope never said condoms spread Aids. Pope Benedict and Condoms: What He Did and Did Not Say
Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | theguardian.com
BBC NEWS | Africa | Pope tells Africa 'condoms wrong'
Hes said condoms make the problem worse. Ie, they don't prevent the spread of the virus (they do), but make it worse (they don't).
3) Here is a lie atheists and God haters love: Hitler was a Catholic". It is true that Hitler was raised Catholic. He even spoke like he believed in God in some of his speeches to win over the hearts and minds. But his private comments revealed Hitler hated Christianity.
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country.
"Some how you turned 5,000 into billions. There was not 1 billion alive then and I can only assume that you have inflated these numbers out of shear ignorance mixed with religious hatred. The world population first hit one billion in 1820. Had "billions died, no human would of survived."
Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
1) Galileo was kept under house arrest and was never tortured, not even one time. You are fabricating your facts.
WAS GALILEO TORTURED? - Article - NYTimes.com. He was tortured until he recanted.
Vatican Science Panel Told By Pope - Galileo Was Right - NYTimes.com
2) The pope never said condoms spread Aids. Pope Benedict and Condoms: What He Did and Did Not Say
Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | theguardian.com
BBC NEWS | Africa | Pope tells Africa 'condoms wrong'
Hes said condoms make the problem worse. Ie, they don't prevent the spread of the virus (they do), but make it worse (they don't).
3) Here is a lie atheists and God haters love: Hitler was a Catholic". It is true that Hitler was raised Catholic. He even spoke like he believed in God in some of his speeches to win over the hearts and minds. But his private comments revealed Hitler hated Christianity.
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country.
Again, I see no need for rudeness. I just used one example of a person who meant to do good, but had an irrational view of how the world works. I was not using it as an argument from exception. I can think of at least another 15 examples. And while its not something you would do - its still promotes believing that a man rose from the dead promotes the mechanism that creates people like that.
I don't hate God. I don't believe there is one. I hate what people do in the name of God, or because they thought they were obeying God's will. To me, Andrea Yates is no different than Abraham.
And just because I don't hold the same views as you, does not mean you should be rude. Tolerance is one of the Christian teachings, is it not?
I don't hate God. I don't believe there is one. I hate what people do in the name of God, or because they thought they were obeying God's will. To me, Andrea Yates is no different than Abraham.
And just because I don't hold the same views as you, does not mean you should be rude. Tolerance is one of the Christian teachings, is it not?
Inability to comprehend basic English:
"It appears that on June 16, 1633, Pope Urban VIII, ordered Galileo, the prisoner, to be interrogated as to his object in publishing his dialogues on the Ptolemaic and Copernican systems, threatened with the torture, and, if this failed to elicit a confession, condemned to abjuration and imprisonment during the pleasure of the Congregation."
"It appears that on June 16, 1633, Pope Urban VIII, ordered Galileo, the prisoner, to be interrogated as to his object in publishing his dialogues on the Ptolemaic and Copernican systems, threatened with the torture, and, if this failed to elicit a confession, condemned to abjuration and imprisonment during the pleasure of the Congregation."
- BILLIONS OF PEOPLE. Here are just a FEW examples.
Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
- Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
- "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
- Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end..Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
D
Again, you claim billions killed by Christianity and your own source does not claim that. Your own source lists the Rwanda massacre as being a religious war--what a joke.
Again you post a link in hopes it will lend some credibility to your assertions but your own link claims that Galileo was threatened with torture but never was tortured. I have already proved he was not tortured.
Again, I already pointed out that this was a miss understanding of what he said. I am not a Catholic and don't even care if he said it.
Again, I said Hitler did publicly state he was a Christian. Somehow you are trying to ignore the evidence I posted which proves he hated Christianity as you do.
I won't respond to more of this sort of nonsense. You have not even looked at what I posted or you would see you are wrong.
Again you post a link in hopes it will lend some credibility to your assertions but your own link claims that Galileo was threatened with torture but never was tortured. I have already proved he was not tortured.
Again, I already pointed out that this was a miss understanding of what he said. I am not a Catholic and don't even care if he said it.
Again, I said Hitler did publicly state he was a Christian. Somehow you are trying to ignore the evidence I posted which proves he hated Christianity as you do.
I won't respond to more of this sort of nonsense. You have not even looked at what I posted or you would see you are wrong.
1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
To use Galileo as one's example of Vatican oppression instead of very obvious examples such as Giordano Bruno is compelling evidence of ignorance of European history.
To use Galileo as one's example of Vatican oppression instead of very obvious examples such as Giordano Bruno is compelling evidence of ignorance of European history.
Ya know, when I ask Theists a question, I do not then proceed to belittle, insult, or otherwise engage in anything other than intelligent and thoughtful discussion.
To do otherwise, is not going to further the conversation from either side. I will never convert you (I'm not trying to) and you will never convert me (I hope you aren't trying). But the purpose of the conversation is to genuinely try to see it from someone else's perspective even if you politely disagree.
So when I ask a theist a question, I am genuinely searching for an answer....not searching for only the answer I want.
Its disappointing that my discussions thus far - which was a question to an Atheist - have been met with poor rhetoric.
To do otherwise, is not going to further the conversation from either side. I will never convert you (I'm not trying to) and you will never convert me (I hope you aren't trying). But the purpose of the conversation is to genuinely try to see it from someone else's perspective even if you politely disagree.
So when I ask a theist a question, I am genuinely searching for an answer....not searching for only the answer I want.
Its disappointing that my discussions thus far - which was a question to an Atheist - have been met with poor rhetoric.