What Laws are still valid to christians
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even though we obey his commandments we are not saved by our own actions or any works of the law but are saved by grace of our Lord hamashiach yashuah so that no man shall glory in themselves but be wise and prudent and hold fast that you may take of that inheritance wich is given by faith but fear that you may sin not that his wrath may come upon you because fear of the Lord is the begining of knowledge
H
When we fail to understand the contrast between God and His creation ,it leads to much error. God is the absolute,immultible eternal Creator of the changable and finite creation. "It is not He and He is not it." God has created all things and the creation is not Him. It is outside of God. The creation is not the absolute. God is the only absolute. Every thing God has created will change. God created good and He created evil for us men and angels to deal with. You can not transfer the characteristic of unchangableness to the creation. His laws for mankind are not absolute nor unchangable. that is why He can and has changed His laws from the O.t. to the N.T. .No sensible person can read the N.T. and not see the change. You are commiting mental suercide when you think the laws of the O.T. have not changed. The word "fulfill" means to change. Webster: "To put into effect" "to bring to an end" "to meet the requirerment of :Satisfy" All those definitions involue change. In the sermon on the Mt. Jesus clarified the true meaning "effect" of the law,destroying the shallow interpretations of the Sadusees. Jesus brought into "effect" many prophecies in His first coming. Jesus "ended" the condemnation of the law, He "ended" The feast days of the O.T.. He "ended " the 7th day sabbaths and all sabbaths and creataed a new "rest" day to picture His victory day ,Sunday. You keep saying nothing has changed, You compare the old physical things to the new spirituals and blindly say, nothing has changed. You are very confused, playing with you litte
toy trucks ,when you could be riding in the luxury of a beautiful suv.. COME ON< grow up into Christ. Love to all, Hoffco
toy trucks ,when you could be riding in the luxury of a beautiful suv.. COME ON< grow up into Christ. Love to all, Hoffco
H
To eternallygrateful, Do you realize, you just called GOD a lair"? In Eph.3:14-16 GOD, said, "the ordanances"... separated the Gentiles from the Jews. and Jesus destroyed the emity, the ordanances" so the two could get together." You said"The ceremonial law NEVER separated anyone." Please be careful of shoting from the hip, you shot you own foot. " loose lips sink ships". Love you. Hoffco
Couldn't agree more. No one that sought to be righteous by the law succeeded because the flesh is weak.
Romans 8:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The Law is our teacher, through God's Holy Spirit to show us our failure to be perfect by it. Because of that instruction, we are enabled, and to confess the sins that the law exposes.
Romans 8:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The Law is our teacher, through God's Holy Spirit to show us our failure to be perfect by it. Because of that instruction, we are enabled, and to confess the sins that the law exposes.
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it's almost the easiest thing for anyone to understand because of how plain it is example it's like saying president obama replaced george bush as the president, is george bush still the president? or obama which one is in charge at the moment? lol maybe not the best example to use but you should get the point
Non-responsive.
Yes, the context (vv. 11-14) is very clear that vv.14-15 refer to enmity between Jew and Gentile,
while v.16 refers to enmity between mankind and God,
both enmities being dealt with on the cross,
where the former was removed by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations (v.15),
and the latter was remedied by forgiveness of sin through faith in his blood (Ro 3:25).
Sorry you cannot understand the context (vv. 11-14), for they are quite clear.[/quote]
Yes. I quoted the post in context, and took the literal interpretation.
And that was non responsive.[/quote]
Yes, non-responsive.
The context was presented and you did not deal with the context itself (vv. 11-14).
And you still don't.
Humility is truth.
I can't agree or disagree that your understanding of the context itself is truth, until you give it.
[quote]The context is that God. Took the law out of the way[/quote]
No, it is not.
The context is vv. 11-14, which say nothing about God taking the law out of the way.
1. You added the word (ceremonial) to v. 15.
The ceremonial law NEVER separated anyone. [/quote]
If you knew your OT better, you would know that the Jews remained separate from unbelieving Gentiles because of Gentile uncleanness.
You might want to review
Lev 11 (v.43),
15 (vv.1-12, 19-30),
20 (v.25),
22 (vv.5, 6).
"Do not be made unclean by them." (Lev 11:43)
All bodily discharges made them unclean, and that uncleanness made everything they touched
unclean, and everything that touched what they touched was made unclean (Lev 15:1-12, 19-30).
Therefore, all unbelieving Gentiles were unclean to Jews by the ceremonial law of Lev 15,
because the unbelieving Gentiles had no purification/cleansing remedy.
And you do that by not taking into account the Scriptures that disagree with you,
such as Eph 2:11-14, which are the context of Eph 2:15-16, whose grammatical construction (not hermeneutic) you clearly violate.
Yes, the context (vv. 11-14) is very clear that vv.14-15 refer to enmity between Jew and Gentile,
while v.16 refers to enmity between mankind and God,
both enmities being dealt with on the cross,
where the former was removed by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations (v.15),
and the latter was remedied by forgiveness of sin through faith in his blood (Ro 3:25).
Sorry you cannot understand the context (vv. 11-14), for they are quite clear.[/quote]
Yes. I quoted the post in context, and took the literal interpretation.
And that was non responsive.[/quote]
Yes, non-responsive.
The context was presented and you did not deal with the context itself (vv. 11-14).
And you still don't.
Humility is truth.
I can't agree or disagree that your understanding of the context itself is truth, until you give it.
[quote]The context is that God. Took the law out of the way[/quote]
No, it is not.
The context is vv. 11-14, which say nothing about God taking the law out of the way.
1. You added the word (ceremonial) to v. 15.
The ceremonial law NEVER separated anyone. [/quote]
If you knew your OT better, you would know that the Jews remained separate from unbelieving Gentiles because of Gentile uncleanness.
You might want to review
Lev 11 (v.43),
15 (vv.1-12, 19-30),
20 (v.25),
22 (vv.5, 6).
"Do not be made unclean by them." (Lev 11:43)
All bodily discharges made them unclean, and that uncleanness made everything they touched
unclean, and everything that touched what they touched was made unclean (Lev 15:1-12, 19-30).
Therefore, all unbelieving Gentiles were unclean to Jews by the ceremonial law of Lev 15,
because the unbelieving Gentiles had no purification/cleansing remedy.
And you do that by not taking into account the Scriptures that disagree with you,
such as Eph 2:11-14, which are the context of Eph 2:15-16, whose grammatical construction (not hermeneutic) you clearly violate.
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honestly, i've met the most unreasonable people on this forum that i've ever met in my life, sorry to say, not even willing to discuss the scripture among ourselves all you do is keep going in a circle just to defend your wrong and everysingle time something is presented that contradicts your believe you like just ignore it and change the topic immediately and talk about the same thing over and over.. do you even stop and look at yourselves for once though, i'm sorry i'm just frustrated at all of this.. i asked some of you present something from the NT that says we have to keep the 10 commandments physically your yet to show me this, you ask me why i don't follow it i showed you the exact scripture plainly written that even a child can understand it but yet you reject that not even willing to discuss it but go back to your same routine, someone also ask if we are not to follow the 10 commandments what are we suppose to follow, then i provided the scripture that showed that the commandment itself is fulfilled in us when we accept christ Jesus in our hearts but despite seeing that you just reject it at usual and go back to your own thing, i showed scriptures that plainly stated the commandments were intended for the jews in the first place but what you did? just reject it and change the subject, your doing yourself more wrong than you can ever think of.. you just keep dodging and don't want to understand, that's gonna get you no where... i would be glad if i was doing something wrong or following a wrong doctrine that could lead to my damnation and someone could come with solid evidence to show me that, i would actually listen and not let pride get in the way...i hope God may open up your eyes and humble your hearts one day, God bless.
Format clean-up of post #2069 for clarity:
Yes, non-responsive.
The context was presented and you did not deal with the context itself (vv. 11-14).
And you still don't.
Humility is truth.
I can't agree or disagree that your understanding of the context itself is truth, until you give it.
No, it is not.
The context is vv. 11-14, which say nothing about God taking the law out of the way.
If you knew your OT better, you would know that the Jews remained separate from unbelieving Gentiles because of Gentile uncleanness.
You might want to review
Lev 11 (v.43),
15 (vv.1-12, 19-30),
20 (v.25),
22 (vv.5, 6).
"Do not be made unclean by them." (Lev 11:43)
All bodily discharges made them unclean, and that uncleanness made everything they touched
unclean, and everything that touched what they touched was made unclean (Lev 15:1-12, 19-30).
Therefore, all unbelieving Gentiles were unclean to Jews by the ceremonial law of Lev 15,
because the unbelieving Gentiles had no purification/cleansing remedy.
And you do that by not taking into account the Scriptures that disagree with you,
such as Eph 2:11-14, which are the context of Eph 2:15-16, whose grammatical construction (not hermeneutic) you clearly violate.
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HeRose, forgive me but your post shows the problem.
When you say "it is impossible to obey both commands", notice you're reading the "letter" (i.e. what is exactly written) in BOTH instances (and not the "spirit")...so the only logical conclusion is that one command must be less valid than the other otherwise both commands "literally" contradict each other. And this was one of the problems the Pharisees had in misunderstanding Christ.
I've no doubt you know the spiritual meaning of the word "flesh"; that after Christ it doesn't mean literal "foreskin" anymore (just like a "temple" isn't a physical building anymore). So the "spirit" of God's command the first time is the *same* as the "spirit" of God's command given through Paul for the gentiles. Both are the same exact command; equally valid...but it's difficult to see this if we're focused on the "letters" in both instances.
-----
As a general statement to all; the distinction is NOT between "the Law" vs "the Spirit"...this is a faulty statement that has a danger of leading the unlearned (possibly also reading this thread) into lawlessness. No, the distinction is between "The Letter" vs "The Spirit"...of The SAME Eternal Law.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Just like the temple on earth was a shadow & form of the true version of the abode of God in heaven, so is the letter a shadow & form of the true version of the law in heaven. One is the earthly and the other is the heavenly. One is the physical and the other is the spiritual. Both are bound as one, but the one "full fills" the other.
The Eternal Circumcision Law is "one must be circumcised of the flesh". The letter says "cut off the foreskin", but the spirit says "circumcise the heart". God himself gave a prophecy that this would be the fulfillment of this very law as far back as Deuteronomy. Note: "fulfillment" means "state of being filled to the full" (like a cup running over). It does NOT mean "done away with".
Deuteronomy 30:6
..."The Greatest Commandment" was given by God LONG before Christ ever (re)stated it during his ministry. Notice that this commandment isn't "new", but stands on the foundation established in the First Testament, as Circumcision's fulfillment.
God didn't "change" (like he and his son said they wouldn't in scripture)...
Thus the circumcision law is STILL valid, isn't it? If you love God with every ounce of your being you were - indeed - circumcised of "the flesh".
When you say "it is impossible to obey both commands", notice you're reading the "letter" (i.e. what is exactly written) in BOTH instances (and not the "spirit")...so the only logical conclusion is that one command must be less valid than the other otherwise both commands "literally" contradict each other. And this was one of the problems the Pharisees had in misunderstanding Christ.
I've no doubt you know the spiritual meaning of the word "flesh"; that after Christ it doesn't mean literal "foreskin" anymore (just like a "temple" isn't a physical building anymore). So the "spirit" of God's command the first time is the *same* as the "spirit" of God's command given through Paul for the gentiles. Both are the same exact command; equally valid...but it's difficult to see this if we're focused on the "letters" in both instances.
-----
As a general statement to all; the distinction is NOT between "the Law" vs "the Spirit"...this is a faulty statement that has a danger of leading the unlearned (possibly also reading this thread) into lawlessness. No, the distinction is between "The Letter" vs "The Spirit"...of The SAME Eternal Law.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Just like the temple on earth was a shadow & form of the true version of the abode of God in heaven, so is the letter a shadow & form of the true version of the law in heaven. One is the earthly and the other is the heavenly. One is the physical and the other is the spiritual. Both are bound as one, but the one "full fills" the other.
The Eternal Circumcision Law is "one must be circumcised of the flesh". The letter says "cut off the foreskin", but the spirit says "circumcise the heart". God himself gave a prophecy that this would be the fulfillment of this very law as far back as Deuteronomy. Note: "fulfillment" means "state of being filled to the full" (like a cup running over). It does NOT mean "done away with".
Deuteronomy 30:6
..."The Greatest Commandment" was given by God LONG before Christ ever (re)stated it during his ministry. Notice that this commandment isn't "new", but stands on the foundation established in the First Testament, as Circumcision's fulfillment.
God didn't "change" (like he and his son said they wouldn't in scripture)...
Thus the circumcision law is STILL valid, isn't it? If you love God with every ounce of your being you were - indeed - circumcised of "the flesh".
Someone's been lying to you. Keeping the law perfectly is required.
Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it. Deuteronomy 27:26
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” Galatians 3:10
Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it. Deuteronomy 27:26
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” Galatians 3:10
Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Yes He has been doing this sence the begining, i am glad someone else has notice this.
As a general statement to all; the distinction is NOT between "the Law" vs "the Spirit"...this is a faulty statement that has a danger of leading the unlearned (possibly also reading this thread) into lawlessness.No, the distinction is between "The Letter" vs "The Spirit"...of The SAME Eternal Law.
I agree with this. post # 2075
God bless
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Yes He has been doing this sence the begining, i am glad someone else has notice this.
As a general statement to all; the distinction is NOT between "the Law" vs "the Spirit"...this is a faulty statement that has a danger of leading the unlearned (possibly also reading this thread) into lawlessness.No, the distinction is between "The Letter" vs "The Spirit"...of The SAME Eternal Law.
I agree with this. post # 2075
God bless
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Circumcision in the flesh was a command in the law of Moses. So was circumcision of the heart. If a son of Israel wasn't circumcised in the flesh, he was cut off from Israel, even though he may have had a circumcised heart. That is the nature of law.
There are some here who insist that all law is equally valid. They make no distinction between the spirit of the law and letter of the law. Physical circumcision and spiritual circumcision are not the same thing, even though the latter is the fulfillment of the spirit of the letter.
What I'm trying to point out is that it is impossible today to be obedient to the letter of the law of circumcision, and to also be obedient to Christ. They are mutually exclusive.
If what I just said isn't true, show me how a person can follow the letter of the law of circumcision and still be obedient to Christ. If you can't, then that means that the letter of the law has passed away. Paul said as much when he said physical circumcision is nothing.
There are some here who insist that all law is equally valid. They make no distinction between the spirit of the law and letter of the law. Physical circumcision and spiritual circumcision are not the same thing, even though the latter is the fulfillment of the spirit of the letter.
What I'm trying to point out is that it is impossible today to be obedient to the letter of the law of circumcision, and to also be obedient to Christ. They are mutually exclusive.
If what I just said isn't true, show me how a person can follow the letter of the law of circumcision and still be obedient to Christ. If you can't, then that means that the letter of the law has passed away. Paul said as much when he said physical circumcision is nothing.
Note: that should be Spirit, not spirit.
There is no "letter of the law" and "spirit of the law" in Scripture.
There is only the letter, which is the law, and the Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit.
The letter (the law) kills because of Dt 27:26, while the Spirit gives life (eternal life) because of faith.
2Co 3:6 is not referring to a "spiritual" meaning of the law, but to the person of the Holy Spirit.
There is no "letter of the law" and "spirit of the law" in Scripture.
There is only the letter, which is the law, and the Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit.
The letter (the law) kills because of Dt 27:26, while the Spirit gives life (eternal life) because of faith.
2Co 3:6 is not referring to a "spiritual" meaning of the law, but to the person of the Holy Spirit.
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