The falling away

[eternally-gratefull]

If I step on some toes I apologize in advance.

If a person understands the verses pertaining to the "falling away" as pertaining to an individual it becomes a case of personal and not corporate or worldwide falling away.

http://brmicke.yolasite.com/man-of-sin.php

If a person approaches this portion of scripture without mentally trying to fit it in with a rapture doctrine a completely different understanding is possible.

The opinion at the link mentioned above is quite a departure from the party line. However if nothing else, my opinion expressed in the previously linked article encourages a Christian to think out of the traditional thought box.

The problems a person runs into when they try and fit this portion of scripture into the rapture theory are generally avoided if a person does not automatically try to fit these verses in 2 Thess into another doctrinal position. In my mind then the entire pre/post trib controversy is avoided when this is done.

BY the way - it has been a while since I even thought along these lines - so if I am a little slow to understand some points please understand why.

the falling away according to paul is linked to those things. they can not be separated.

1. The day of the Lord (which comes as a thief)
2. The time the man of sin (beast of revelation) is revealed


The context of the thing paul wrote is that the resurrection had already occurred. And these people were afraid they have missed it.

looking at these things. One can not separate this from the rapture (ressurection) no matter when that takes place. (pre, mid, or post)

 

[homwardbound]

the flesh, in that it can not obey the lw
the law, in that it can not make the flesh obey, or save anyone.

thus both.

So you are saying the Law is weak as in making the flesh obey.
that Brother is a contradiction of Law when Law is perfect, it is not weak, Flesh is period.
At least as I see it, for God is perfect and holy, so God's law is as well perfect and Holy, yet whenever it flows into flesh, it reveals flesh's weakness in that it can't obey and be perfect as the Law is.
I think you have misinterpreted Law in ad of itself, but we all have free will choice, and so I disagree to agree
Thanks.
P.S. if you agree that the Law in and of itself is Holy, then please say so, it is or it is not? Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

So there is no confusion, I am identifying the church as we see it right now on this earth. We only have the truth through God's Word, and the "falling away" is a representation of a church that presents a false security by administering a false doctrine, which leads to a false conversion.

Got it and Thanks, now do you believe what the scripture says about where the true Tabernacle is right now? Hebrews 8

 

[Cobus]

Nope.

I have been purchased by the blood of Christ.
I have his eternal life
I have been made his son. I call him abba, I do not fear
I have been justified by his blood, Sanctified by his life and will be glorified by his ressurection

Not to sure what will happen to you. Do not know your gospel.

But I have faith God will keep his word. And his promise, of eternal life to ALL who trust SOLELY in him and his work!

EG if God does not glorify you here, you are not His to keep.... Jesus said.... FAHTER THE GLORY THOU HAST GIVEN ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM.... That they me ONE, EVEN AS we are one....

The glory God gives to ALL His people, make them PERFECTLY ONE... And that Glory, is the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS... No person will be a saint without the Blood, but no person will be PERFECTLY one woth God, without the BORN OF GOD... 1 John 3:9... If you are not that person, there is no person! God is not an acceptor of the person, but the ONE IN CHRIST...

God can only PLEASE ONE LIFE... the PERFECT LIFE IN CHRIST, BORN OF GOD, SEED IN THE PERSON.

 

[homwardbound]

Posted in "Effective Prayer" also


Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

you know, I used to wonder how I could ever do that and that Holy. and never could do it. Then one day. I saw this verse and thus offered me up to God through it.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

So by that truth above through Christ I could and did offer me
Romans 12:1 ¶ Therefore, I beseech you brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies in living sacrifice, holy, well pleasing unto God, which is your rational worship.

in thanksgiving and praise, for what God has done for me and now am forever thankful not concerned or worried, knowing God is doing God's work of love through me since the day I believed I received and now know
1 John 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

That scripture of offering oneself Holy and acceptable to God used to condemn me until like I already said I saw what God through Christ has already done for me, and all the world
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight
1 John 2:1 ¶ My little children, I write these things unto you, that ye sin not; and if anyone has sinned, we have an Advocate before the Father, Jesus, the righteous Christ;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG if God does not glorify you here, you are not His to keep.... Jesus said.... FAHTER THE GLORY THOU HAST GIVEN ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM.... That they me ONE, EVEN AS we are one....

he alread did that. he gave me the Glory Christ had, it is his glory, Not mine.

The glory God gives to ALL His people, make them PERFECTLY ONE... And that Glory, is the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS... No person will be a saint without the Blood, but no person will be PERFECTLY one woth God, without the BORN OF GOD... 1 John 3:9... If you are not that person, there is no person! God is not an acceptor of the person, but the ONE IN CHRIST...

God can only PLEASE ONE LIFE... the PERFECT LIFE IN CHRIST, BORN OF GOD, SEED IN THE PERSON.

yep. I was made one with God. I showed that in my post. so I do not understand your statement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are saying the Law is weak as in making the flesh obey.

yep, it is.. it does not even give the complete way to obey, Jesus shows us this in matt 5..

that Brother is a contradiction of Law when Law is perfect, it is not weak, Flesh is period.
At least as I see it, for God is perfect and holy, so God's law is as well perfect and Holy, yet whenever it flows into flesh, it reveals flesh's weakness in that it can't obey and be perfect as the Law is.
I think you have misinterpreted Law in ad of itself, but we all have free will choice, and so I disagree to agree
Thanks.
P.S. if you agree that the Law in and of itself is Holy, then please say so, it is or it is not? Thanks

nope. I do not misinterpret it as all.

As jesus said, the law of old. says do not commit adultry, it does not show us that if we even look upon a woman with lust we have commited sin.

the law is perfect in what it was intended, to be a schoolmaster. it is not perfect in that it can show us every sin we could ever do. or tell us how to not do that sin (be righteous).

The law of christ does this. what is the law of christ?

The law of love.

 

[john832]

the falling away according to paul is linked to those things. they can not be separated.

1. The day of the Lord (which comes as a thief)
2. The time the man of sin (beast of revelation) is revealed


The context of the thing paul wrote is that the resurrection had already occurred. And these people were afraid they have missed it.

No it is not post resurrection...

The resurrection occurs at the return of Christ...

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All one has to do is read the two verses prior to verse three. "That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" What day?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The falling away has to precede (come first) the return of Christ and the resurrection which occurs at the seventh Trump...

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

looking at these things. One can not separate this from the rapture (ressurection) no matter when that takes place. (pre, mid, or post)

The falling away does not occur at the time of the revealing of the Man of Sin and the resurrection, it comes before...

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Teh love of many waxing cold comes before the AoD and the flight of the church to a place of safety.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it is not post resurrection...

Do you read anything I say? I did not say it was post ressurection. I said Paul said these things must come first.

don't you ever listen??

The resurrection occurs at the return of Christ...

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All one has to do is read the two verses prior to verse three. "That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" What day?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This coming is to gather us together with him. Nothing here states this coming is the same as his return to set up his kingdom. At that coming, he will come on a horse, destroy the enmey, and set up his kingdom. Your assumption is that these two are the same.


as far as the falling away coming first. I said that. so again you prove you do not read.

The falling away has to precede (come first) the return of Christ and the resurrection which occurs at the seventh Trump...

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You assume the seventh trump and the trump spoken of here are the same. You can not substantiate this biblically. And you should not assume things.

The falling away does not occur at the time of the revealing of the Man of Sin and the resurrection, it comes before...

Which is what I said. Dude if you going to ever get some sort of honest responses to your posting, you have to star listening to people. Otherwise your going to be seen as someone who just assumes things and goes of on wild tangents which do nothing to help you!

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

These things happen before the abomination. Not after. They are part of the birth pangs, To show us the end is near!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Teh love of many waxing cold comes before the AoD and the flight of the church to a place of safety.

It is not the flight of the church, The church

1. Did not give birth to Christ, Israel did/. Christ gave birth to the church
2. Does not reside in Jerusalem or the surrounding area (israel)
3. It is because God is protecting Israel, that Satan turns his wrath to her offspring (the church)

If you can;t get this right, How can we listen to anything else?


The main problem with those who say the rapture and second coming are the same is this.. If nothing else. this proves it to be wrong.

1. Coming of Christ to ressurect his church, Imminent, happen at any time, Given no signs (a thief does not give signs, he comes without warning), No one knows or can know when it will happen;.
2. Coming of Christ to set up his kingdom. Not imminent, Can not happen until things happen spoken of in the prophesies. COmes with many signs, so you know his coming is near, Everyone will know when it will happen. because of the signs given.

 

[PlainWord]

It is human nature to exempt ourselves from what we desire not to be involved in. If the church is taught that they will escape responsibility, they will believe they no longer have to be a warrior. In this case, we as church members are very well aware of the corruption that continues to escalate within our environment, but this doctrine deceives us into reacting with apathy. To back up this deception, I have heard this scripture used that is true, yet taken out of context, and added to the rapture subject that it wasn't intended to exemplify.
John 15:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I have heard preachers, but mostly pastors, use this scripture, as if they were quoting it word for word, (and I probably have done it in the past also) saying "you are in this world, but not of it." and then follow it up with something like. 'glory to God, we are going home. No one knows the hour, but it could be right now!' That's not really wrong, but if it's not totally explained by the truth, it can easily become a lie.

It's subtle, but a scripture that is usually not concentrated on, when talking the "rapture," is this one.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is clear that Jesus is teaching the chronology of these events. "after the tribulation----then shall appear the Son of Man-----in the clouds of heaven-----with a great sound of a trumpet-------and gather his elect." I don't see how that can be taken any other way.

As mentioned before, our adversary uses scripture to distort the truth by taking it out of context. Taking scripture out of context is clearly a major sign of the "falling away."

Does this sound familiar??

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Compare to the Rapture theory. This is what the Lord tells us:

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Satan is telling us, did the Lord really say you would suffer Tribulation? No. The Lord is going to come before the Tribulation and take His church away. You won't surely die and be hated for his name.

I guess all the armor Paul tells us to put on in Ephesians 6 doesn't apply when the worst battle with Satan comes because when the chips are down, when the whole world is going to be threatened with the worse Satanic evil it has ever seen, God is going to remove His Church, His Holy Spirit and all influence and let Satan run rampant. That is what Pre-Tribbers preach.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does this sound familiar??

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Compare to the Rapture theory. This is what the Lord tells us:

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Satan is telling us, did the Lord really say you would suffer Tribulation? No. The Lord is going to come before the Tribulation and take His church away. You won't surely die and be hated for his name.

I guess all the armor Paul tells us to put on in Ephesians 6 doesn't apply when the worst battle with Satan comes because when the chips are down, when the whole world is going to be threatened with the worse Satanic evil it has ever seen, God is going to remove His Church, His Holy Spirit and all influence and let Satan run rampant. That is what Pre-Tribbers preach.

lol. People die in the name of Christ every day. Millions have died in the name of Christ since he left.

Thus your point of reasoning is flawed.

 

[PlainWord]

The main problem with those who say the rapture and second coming are the same is this.. If nothing else. this proves it to be wrong.

1. Coming of Christ to ressurect his church, Imminent, happen at any time, Given no signs (a thief does not give signs, he comes without warning), No one knows or can know when it will happen;.
2. Coming of Christ to set up his kingdom. Not imminent, Can not happen until things happen spoken of in the prophesies. COmes with many signs, so you know his coming is near, Everyone will know when it will happen. because of the signs given.

EG,

You are making the same false assumption that all Pre-Tribbers make. They misapply the thief concept into attempting to prove an immanency doctrine that doesn't exist.

The Lord is telling us to WATCH for the signs He told us about so that we will NOT be caught off guard by the thief. If we are WATCHING, we will know the season when the Lord is to return. If we are NOT watching (BECAUSE WE THINK THERE IS A RAPTURE FOR INSTANCE) then we WILL be caught off guard.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

It amazes me how easily Christians will just totally ignore the clear written word of God in favor of their own interpretations. This is because they don't understand something so they start inventing things rather than seeking guidance.

 

[JaumeJ]

Isa 26:20
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Some folks think this is referring to being taken away from the Great Tribulation, but actually it is being kept safe while the final destruction takes place.

After all, when Daniel describes the Great Tribulation he makes mention of people with knowledge being helped very little, and they will lead many to the Way. This really does mean there will be believers helping the helpless during that period. Love dictates it should not be any other way.

Also it is written the Beast will wage war on the saints and prevail. This by no means is to be taken that he will defeat them, simply prevail during that time.

Those who know their Maker also know dying in this age has always been ¡nevitable, and they hope to die in glorifying the Father in Yeshua. It does not take a lot of study to understand when motivated by love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

You are making the same false assumption that all Pre-Tribbers make. They misapply the thief concept into attempting to prove an immanency doctrine that doesn't exist.

The Lord is telling us to WATCH for the signs He told us about so that we will NOT be caught off guard by the thief. If we are WATCHING, we will know the season when the Lord is to return. If we are NOT watching (BECAUSE WE THINK THERE IS A RAPTURE FOR INSTANCE) then we WILL be caught off guard.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

It amazes me how easily Christians will just totally ignore the clear written word of God in favor of their own interpretations. This is because they don't understand something so they start inventing things rather than seeking guidance.

No. He is not.

1. A thief does not tell when he is coming. let the master of the house be waiting for him (no signs)
2. You do not know which hour (time) the Lord is coming Again, this means no signs.

what are the signs of the lords coming to set up his kingdom?

1. great tribulation
2. Abomination of desolation
3. All the signs given in revelation and other passages
4. The earth is to the point if God does not return, no flesh (life) would be saved
5. One world government and banking system

I can go on and on and on about the signs of his second coming.

 

[PlainWord]

lol. People die in the name of Christ every day. Millions have died in the name of Christ since he left.

Thus your point of reasoning is flawed.

These deaths are nothing compared to the slaughter that is coming for those who don't heed the Lord's instructions and they go out after the false Christ when Christ told them not to.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Rev 9.

By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:19

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

See, we were clearly warned not to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. We are told to WAIT!!!! If you think the first "Christ" to arrive is our Lord, you will be fooled.

 

[PlainWord]

No. He is not.

1. A thief does not tell when he is coming. let the master of the house be waiting for him (no signs)
2. You do not know which hour (time) the Lord is coming Again, this means no signs.

what are the signs of the lords coming to set up his kingdom?

1. great tribulation
2. Abomination of desolation
3. All the signs given in revelation and other passages
4. The earth is to the point if God does not return, no flesh (life) would be saved
5. One world government and banking system

I can go on and on and on about the signs of his second coming.

You are correct, we are given signs that will precede the Lord's second coming, and those are the signs Jesus lists. Hmm, funny He left out the Rapture as a sign, isn't it??????

Don't you think an earlier return where millions are snatched into the air and whisked off to heaven would be a decent sign of the events to come?

Again, the Lord is saying if you are on the look out, every night watching your house, a thief could not break in. But if you are asleep and not paying attention then His return would sneak up on you like a thief. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?? Maybe because they believe a lie to begin with and must then make everything fit their lie.

 

[PlainWord]

Mark 13:

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Where does the Lord tell us he is coming BEFORE the Tribulation?
Where does the Lord discuss two separate future returns?
Where is there any distinction made between two returns when His return is discussed?
Where does it say the Church is going to be taken to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation?
Where does it say that the saints mentioned in Revelation are new converts?

The Rapture theory has no basis in scripture as not ONE SINGLE requirement above is taught. Believe the lie if you want EG, I'm going to take the Lord at his word.

 

[JaumeJ]

This is out of sequence according to the Word. After the tribulation of those days, not before. Those who look to the everlasting, that is being freed from this bondage to decay are not concerned about escaping the great tribulation so much as to help guide as many as possible to the Way before the coming of our Lord.

You are correct, we are given signs that will precede the Lord's second coming, and those are the signs Jesus lists. Hmm, funny He left out the Rapture as a sign, isn't it??????

Don't you think an earlier return where millions are snatched into the air and whisked off to heaven would be a decent sign of the events to come?

Again, the Lord is saying if you are on the look out, every night watching your house, a thief could not break in. But if you are asleep and not paying attention then His return would sneak up on you like a thief. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?? Maybe because they believe a lie to begin with and must then make everything fit their lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mark 13:

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Where does the Lord tell us he is coming BEFORE the Tribulation?
Where does the Lord discuss two separate future returns?
Where is there any distinction made between two returns when His return is discussed?
Where does it say the Church is going to be taken to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation?
Where does it say that the saints mentioned in Revelation are new converts?

The Rapture theory has no basis in scripture as not ONE SINGLE requirement above is taught. Believe the lie if you want EG, I'm going to take the Lord at his word.

The rapture is not a coming. It is us meeting him in the clouds.

A coming is where he puts his feet on the ground.

I take the Lord at his word also.

he will come as a thief in the night. No man knows. not even him, but his father in heaven (no signs)

But if you want to think otherwise. feel free..

The fact is. Post trib rapture theory, or post anything has no basis of fact. of the three doctrines, it is the least scriptural of all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are correct, we are given signs that will precede the Lord's second coming, and those are the signs Jesus lists. Hmm, funny He left out the Rapture as a sign, isn't it??????

Nope. Because the rapure is not an actual coming. He does not come literally to earth to set up his kingdom. The ressurection comes as a theif. we are told to watch and be ready, because we DO NOT KNOW WHEN IT WILL COME. he will come as a theif., which does not show signs he is going to come.

Don't you think an earlier return where millions are snatched into the air and whisked off to heaven would be a decent sign of the events to come?

Well since the falling away has happened, I doubt there will be millions;.

Again, the Lord is saying if you are on the look out, every night watching your house, a thief could not break in. But if you are asleep and not paying attention then His return would sneak up on you like a thief. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?? Maybe because they believe a lie to begin with and must then make everything fit their lie.

lol.. Why do I need to look out if all the signs of his second coming have not even happened yet. I can continue my life any way I please. I would have no worry about his coming today. The signs have not happened yet.

Why is it so hard to grasp for yourself? it is quite easy for me to grasp!