What Laws are still valid to christians
- Thread starter vic1980
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M
Is that scriptural? Sign? Yes. Commandment? Yes, and with severe penalties for disobedience. Sacrifice? I'd say no. Do you have scripture to back it up? A sacrifice is the giving up of something of value by the giver. Circumcision was performed at 8 days, by the parents. The child was too young to understand what was even happening. It was a sign and act of obedience by his parents, but a sacrifice? By who?
If circumcision was a sacrifice, I think you'd have to say obeying all of the law was a sacrifice, and as the law differentiates between sacrifice and obedience, I'd say this would be erroneous. Just pointing out now, as seemingly small errors can later end up as large heresies.
If circumcision was a sacrifice, I think you'd have to say obeying all of the law was a sacrifice, and as the law differentiates between sacrifice and obedience, I'd say this would be erroneous. Just pointing out now, as seemingly small errors can later end up as large heresies.
I firmly believe that we are to pay high regard to the writings of the old covenant (torah and prophets). But we don't have to. The spirit is able to teach a person how to do GOD's will apart from the old testament.
The new covenant writings are more important because they witness directly of Christ, who is only visible as shadows in the old testament.
One could have only the new testament and do well. If one only had the old testament, it is doubtful that he would do well at all.
The new covenant writings are more important because they witness directly of Christ, who is only visible as shadows in the old testament.
One could have only the new testament and do well. If one only had the old testament, it is doubtful that he would do well at all.
M
You do well to fear for him. This has been pointed out to him previously, but he did not listen.
Galations 5:1 - 6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galations 5:1 - 6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Well, 1Jn 2:1-2:
"My dear children, (that's to believers)
I write this to you so that you will not sin (if they could not sin, he would not write so they would not sin)
But if anybody (that's the "dear children" who are believers)
does sin (so believers do sin),
we (that's believers) have one who speaks to the Father in our (that's believers) defense--
Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the stoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins,
and not only ours (believing Jews) but also for the sins of the whole world (believers outside Israel).
John, an apostle to the Jews, says that believers do sin, and when they do, if they confess them,
God is faithful and just to forgive them.
BTW, Why is it just for God to forgive our sin?
"My dear children, (that's to believers)
I write this to you so that you will not sin (if they could not sin, he would not write so they would not sin)
But if anybody (that's the "dear children" who are believers)
does sin (so believers do sin),
we (that's believers) have one who speaks to the Father in our (that's believers) defense--
Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the stoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins,
and not only ours (believing Jews) but also for the sins of the whole world (believers outside Israel).
John, an apostle to the Jews, says that believers do sin, and when they do, if they confess them,
God is faithful and just to forgive them.
BTW, Why is it just for God to forgive our sin?
Listen, what is more of a sacrifice? Giving the firstlings of the flock or cutting off one's foreskin?
The whole of the christian walk is a sacrifice.
The whole thing.
I mean, THE WHOLE THING.
Even so, which is harder? To have one's foreskin cut off, or to rend one's heart?
Which is more of a sacrifice?
"He who will lead, will serve " - I'd say that's quite the sacrifice.
Paul said: "I die daily", indeed he did.
Read up on his travails. Do we think we will have it any different? - Not if we are chosen to be leaders of others into the kingdom.
It's all going to be a sacrifice......so just get used to it.
The whole of the christian walk is a sacrifice.
The whole thing.
I mean, THE WHOLE THING.
Even so, which is harder? To have one's foreskin cut off, or to rend one's heart?
Which is more of a sacrifice?
"He who will lead, will serve " - I'd say that's quite the sacrifice.
Paul said: "I die daily", indeed he did.
Read up on his travails. Do we think we will have it any different? - Not if we are chosen to be leaders of others into the kingdom.
It's all going to be a sacrifice......so just get used to it.
Last edited:
M
According to scripture, giving the firstlings of the flock. Are there scriptures I'm overlooking that say circumcision is a sacrifice? There are scriptures that say it is a sign, a commandment, and there are penalties for disobedience. But nothing I remember in scripture claims it is a sacrifice. Is loving the Lord our God a sacrifice, how about honouring our parents? I'd say these are commandments, to differentiate from the clear deaths of animals (sacrifices).
I'm really just pointing it out, and if you have scriptures to verify your claim, let me know. It may only be a technicality, but its surprising how many technicalities seem to lead to heresies later on.
I'm really just pointing it out, and if you have scriptures to verify your claim, let me know. It may only be a technicality, but its surprising how many technicalities seem to lead to heresies later on.
Yes Loving the Lord is a sacrifice
discipline & obedience is of much importance , when one deny themselfs and follows Jesus Christ our Lord ,your Body becomes a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
God bless
discipline & obedience is of much importance , when one deny themselfs and follows Jesus Christ our Lord ,your Body becomes a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
God bless
The whole of the christian pilgrimage is a sacrifice.
You either live for Yahweh or yourself.
Such scriptures as "take up thy cross and follow Me".
As well as the totality of scripture.
For instance - name one prophet that did his/her own will?
You can say David, but he payed heavily when he did.
Also, read everything Jesus said.
How that His kingdom was not of this world(carnal); and as I pointed out earlier, those who are called to lead will serve.
Also, read the epistles. The totality of them is a roadmap to enter into His sufficiency. (Your not going to get there without sacrificing your desires).
But if Torah sacrificial offering is what you want, there are plenty(all of them), that we cannot uphold currently.
The life of the christian is a living sacrifice, the whole of the Bible proclaims this.
You either live for Yahweh or yourself.
Such scriptures as "take up thy cross and follow Me".
As well as the totality of scripture.
For instance - name one prophet that did his/her own will?
You can say David, but he payed heavily when he did.
Also, read everything Jesus said.
How that His kingdom was not of this world(carnal); and as I pointed out earlier, those who are called to lead will serve.
Also, read the epistles. The totality of them is a roadmap to enter into His sufficiency. (Your not going to get there without sacrificing your desires).
But if Torah sacrificial offering is what you want, there are plenty(all of them), that we cannot uphold currently.
The life of the christian is a living sacrifice, the whole of the Bible proclaims this.
Last edited:
The old and new testaments are not on equal footing. One is shadows; the other is the light.
The old:
The new:
God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets. Yet in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of his power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, Hebrews 1:1-3
Quite a difference.
The old:
... the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. Ephesians 3:4-5
The new:
God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets. Yet in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of his power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, Hebrews 1:1-3
Quite a difference.
M
So obedience is actually better than burnt offerings and sacrifices?
1 Samuel 15:22 - 23 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1 Samuel 15:22 - 23 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
May I make mention here in regard to the law of circumcising the male child on the 8th day is a sign of the parents commitment to obey God. Jesus' mother and father took Jesus to be circumcised on the 8th day. Jesus wasn't keeping the commandment, Mary and Joseph were.
Old Testament - Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Obviously the child is not being "saved" by being obedient to the law of circumcision. So what benefit was it to the parents to obey? (Hint: Obedience equals Blessings/Disobedience equals curses.)
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
What?!! Circumcision started with Abraham? Wasn't it Jacob and his family that went down into Egypt during the famine and ended up becoming a very large number 400+years later being led by Moses in the Exodus?
So we see that circumcision is a covenant? My understanding of covenants is that none are void, but only added upon with new instructions but the old instructions are not taken away. Maybe some one here knows about covenants and whether or not that is true with the covenant of circumcision.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;)
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Gal 3:15 Brothers, let me make an analogy from everyday life: when someone swears an oath, no one else can set it aside or add to it.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn't say, "and to seeds," as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one — "and to your seed" — and this "one" is the Messiah.
Gal 3:17 Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the Torah, which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise. (CJB)
Gal 3:29 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.
Gen 17:12 Generation after generation, every male among you who is eight days old is to be circumcised, including slaves born within your household and those bought from a foreigner not descended from you.
Gen 17:13 The slave born in your house and the person bought with your money must be circumcised; thus my covenant will be in your FLESH as an everlasting covenant.
Why does God need the flesh to represent an everlasting covenant? Isn't having our hearts circumcised in the spiritual rim enough? Did Jesus nullify this covenant of being circumcised in the flesh? Did Paul fight against the Circumcision Party who said you had to be circumcised in the flesh to be saved? Is an everlasting covenant different from everlasting salvation? Was the covenant made with Abraham so that Jesus (the single seed) would be circumcised?
I don't have full understanding. If you can expound more, please share.
Old Testament - Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Obviously the child is not being "saved" by being obedient to the law of circumcision. So what benefit was it to the parents to obey? (Hint: Obedience equals Blessings/Disobedience equals curses.)
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
What?!! Circumcision started with Abraham? Wasn't it Jacob and his family that went down into Egypt during the famine and ended up becoming a very large number 400+years later being led by Moses in the Exodus?
So we see that circumcision is a covenant? My understanding of covenants is that none are void, but only added upon with new instructions but the old instructions are not taken away. Maybe some one here knows about covenants and whether or not that is true with the covenant of circumcision.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;)
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Gal 3:15 Brothers, let me make an analogy from everyday life: when someone swears an oath, no one else can set it aside or add to it.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn't say, "and to seeds," as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one — "and to your seed" — and this "one" is the Messiah.
Gal 3:17 Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the Torah, which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise. (CJB)
Gal 3:29 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.
Gen 17:12 Generation after generation, every male among you who is eight days old is to be circumcised, including slaves born within your household and those bought from a foreigner not descended from you.
Gen 17:13 The slave born in your house and the person bought with your money must be circumcised; thus my covenant will be in your FLESH as an everlasting covenant.
Why does God need the flesh to represent an everlasting covenant? Isn't having our hearts circumcised in the spiritual rim enough? Did Jesus nullify this covenant of being circumcised in the flesh? Did Paul fight against the Circumcision Party who said you had to be circumcised in the flesh to be saved? Is an everlasting covenant different from everlasting salvation? Was the covenant made with Abraham so that Jesus (the single seed) would be circumcised?
I don't have full understanding. If you can expound more, please share.