Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[just-me]

This is our web site. The Purpose Of The Mosaic Law (Part 1 of 5)

Anything that you would like to copy and post you can. This thread is meant to find out why Christians fight Christians in the plain view of atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians.

This thread is also for the purpose of considering, and musing about what the onlookers to this contention must be thinking.

This thread is for the purpose of defining whether or not contentious conversations are profitable for edification, or are we truly making progress by unchanging disagreements?

Are we supposed to embrace the Mosaic Law after we come to the knowledge of the truth, or are we supposed to reject it, as a thing of the past after being converted to Christianity?

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

 

[just-me]

So I asked God: "Why do you keep reminding me of your law that you fulfilled?" He gently answered: "Because I want you to see what you are denying about yourself. Use the law as a mirror."

James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[notuptome]

Largely what we see here on CC that creates strife is vastly different definitions of law and grace. Many react to the law from the perspective that it is somehow being portrayed as in conflict with grace.

Like many other conflicts ignorance is at the root of the problem. When this is the case we have only ourselves to blame.

Paul exhorts Timothy to study to show himself approved rightly dividing the word of God that he be not ashamed.

God's law can be taken to mean all of God's word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[2Tim3vs16]

"Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?" IT doesn't. People are more interested in their own conclusions, opinions, interpretations and they profess to know what Christianity IS. That does not mean they are in fact representing what God expects from his servants who know his word, meaning to know and understand their God, his expectations, and they obey. Just like subjects of any government obey It's laws. When everyone starts making up their own rules, they stray from the simple guidelines that are laid out in the Bible Scriptures. Often, they claim that all Bibles are saying something different; But after personal research on as many as 20+ different versions, I found that people are the one's twisting the scriptures and creating contention. It's not the Scriptures themselves.
For instance, if I say something that is true, and it can be and will be proven to be true; then if someone takes what I said and puts their own spin on it, changing what I meant by taking it out of context to support the spin they put on it....
Does that now mean that what they say I said is the 'truth'? If that's the case then the tabloids must be 'true' too. I don't think most people know what 'truth' is. And the Scriptures say that "God's Word is Truth." So why would people who KNOW it, argue about it? The ones who claim to be Christian and then don't act Christian by fighting over their own opinions, do so, because they learned things (mystery's that keep everyone from seeing eye to eye) in church, and not from actually studying the Bible together...they don't know or forget that Bible 'truth' is their ONLY 'truth', as for all subjects of God's Kingdom. Christ preached the truth that unites people as God wishes, rather than dividing them, as Satan wishes.

 

[Least]

This is our web site. The Purpose Of The Mosaic Law (Part 1 of 5)

Anything that you would like to copy and post you can. This thread is meant to find out why Christians fight Christians in the plain view of atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians.

This thread is also for the purpose of considering, and musing about what the onlookers to this contention must be thinking.

This thread is for the purpose of defining whether or not contentious conversations are profitable for edification, or are we truly making progress by unchanging disagreements?

Are we supposed to embrace the Mosaic Law after we come to the knowledge of the truth, or are we supposed to reject it, as a thing of the past after being converted to Christianity?

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

There are so many verses about our conversations, our mouths, our hearts and the state of our hearts, and our tongues.

I'm not certain how to do a verse count that contain these words, but I'm guessing that there are more than most realize. which shows high level of importance regarding these things.

You mentioned in the first part of your study, the standard by which we judge when we examine ourselves and our motives.

"By what standards do you gauge your love for God and other people?"

Leviticus 19 covers many of the ways that we should love others. In verse 35, it talks about that measure. (I like the way that you described the law as being like a mirror.) Measuring our selves by what God says is right.

Leviticus 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Leviticus 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Continuing on with my reading.

God bless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Quite a few reasons.

1. Many (although they deny it) are preaching a works of the law based Gospel. And must be dealt with
2. many are claiming that the law is a means by which we can know how to do good, be morally correct people, Know the will of God, and live out our christian lives, Which we see in the OT people, they never worked. So why should we not try to remove and fight those who would attempt to try to place unders under the yoke of the law?
3. Many, (who preach law) condemn and argue and fight, even outright attack unfoundly those who do not believe one is made righteous (morrally or spiritually) by following the law. But by following the law of Christ (love)

and her-in is where the arguments and hate come in.

I have been around many people who preach law. And from what I see in them.

1. They are proud
2. They can be argumentnantive
3. they are very judgmental
4. They attack anyone who does not agree with them
5. They get to the point they make false accusations against people who do not agree with them
6. So on and so forth (I could continue for awhile)

The fact is. I can think of one person in this chat room of the top of my head who has not done any of the above. And he has not been around for awhile.

The fact is, preaching law brings about all kinds of phariseeism.. why would we want to do that to God, or his church?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is our web site. The Purpose Of The Mosaic Law (Part 1 of 5)

Anything that you would like to copy and post you can. This thread is meant to find out why Christians fight Christians in the plain view of atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians.

This thread is also for the purpose of considering, and musing about what the onlookers to this contention must be thinking.

This thread is for the purpose of defining whether or not contentious conversations are profitable for edification, or are we truly making progress by unchanging disagreements?

Are we supposed to embrace the Mosaic Law after we come to the knowledge of the truth, or are we supposed to reject it, as a thing of the past after being converted to Christianity?

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

I think the spirit of advocacy for compromise between law and grace is a stumbling block to all believers, atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians. It is basically subversion of the gospel of Christ. There is no such thing as compromise between the law and faith, nor between works of law and works of faith. This is a life or death issue.

A big part of the problem in these discussions is the continual, false characterization presented, by what I call law-cultists, that one must either embrace the law of Moses or reject it; that one must follow it, or say it has been abolished. This bogus characterization of the issue is prevalent on law-cultist websites. It is an attempt to control and win the argument by defining the parameters of the issue.

The fact is that there is another option. According to scripture, all believers in Christ are dead to the law of Moses. No law exerts any authority over any dead person. Though dead to the law, believers in Christ are alive in the spirit. If they walk by the spirit, they are not under the law and its condemnation.

So acceptance or rejection of the law of Moses is not the issue. Whether the law exists or not is irrelevant to believers because they are commanded to abide in the eternal life of the holy spirit through faith. If they do this, they will not do the longings of the flesh, which cause sin, which is violation of the law.

 

[just-me]

"Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?" IT doesn't. People are more interested in their own conclusions, opinions, interpretations and they profess to know what Christianity IS. That does not mean they are in fact representing what God expects from his servants who know his word, meaning to know and understand their God, his expectations, and they obey. Just like subjects of any government obey It's laws. When everyone starts making up their own rules, they stray from the simple guidelines that are laid out in the Bible Scriptures. Often, they claim that all Bibles are saying something different; But after personal research on as many as 20+ different versions, I found that people are the one's twisting the scriptures and creating contention. It's not the Scriptures themselves.
For instance, if I say something that is true, and it can be and will be proven to be true; then if someone takes what I said and puts their own spin on it, changing what I meant by taking it out of context to support the spin they put on it....
Does that now mean that what they say I said is the 'truth'? If that's the case then the tabloids must be 'true' too. I don't think most people know what 'truth' is. And the Scriptures say that "God's Word is Truth." So why would people who KNOW it, argue about it? The ones who claim to be Christian and then don't act Christian by fighting over their own opinions, do so, because they learned things (mystery's that keep everyone from seeing eye to eye) in church, and not from actually studying the Bible together...they don't know or forget that Bible 'truth' is their ONLY 'truth', as for all subjects of God's Kingdom. Christ preached the truth that unites people as God wishes, rather than dividing them, as Satan wishes.

Agreed. You defined a spiritual stalemate. thank you, and maybe some will try to edify and be edified by your explanations. "I concur with all you have said. That's why I started this thread." Get down! Sounds like a verse from a rap song doesn't it? LOL

 

[just-me]

There are so many verses about our conversations, our mouths, our hearts and the state of our hearts, and our tongues.

I'm not certain how to do a verse count that contain these words, but I'm guessing that there are more than most realize. which shows high level of importance regarding these things.

You mentioned in the first part of your study, the standard by which we judge when we examine ourselves and our motives.

"By what standards do you gauge your love for God and other people?"

Leviticus 19 covers many of the ways that we should love others. In verse 35, it talks about that measure. (I like the way that you described the law as being like a mirror.) Measuring our selves by what God says is right.

Leviticus 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Leviticus 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Continuing on with my reading.

God bless

Thanks sis, you made some good points.
Proverbs 11:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

 

[RedTent]

Largely what we see here on CC that creates strife is vastly different definitions of law and grace. Many react to the law from the perspective that it is somehow being portrayed as in conflict with grace.

Like many other conflicts ignorance is at the root of the problem. When this is the case we have only ourselves to blame.

Paul exhorts Timothy to study to show himself approved rightly dividing the word of God that he be not ashamed.

God's law can be taken to mean all of God's word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I hope you are right, Roger. I feel that it is part of the birth pangs of the last days. Demons have used this idea to lead many churches into accepting immoral people into the body of Christ. Many Christians are accepting that any time the bible points out sin it is part of the law of Moses, and not to be listened to. They point out that God loves all, and accepts all in His kingdom, so we must, too. I don't know of one church who practices the church discipline that we are told to practice in scripture. These people self righteously practice one part of scripture without completing the teaching.

The church has always led in telling even the secular world how to live. The history of the settlement of the western states in America explains that. The new towns were not safe until the church came to the town. Now, there is almost as much immorality inside the church as outside.

 

[4enlightment]

Acts 6:1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews[a] among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”

 

[Least]

To understand the concepts of the Bible concerning the law of God, we must understand that the law that Jesus was speaking against, was not the principles or spirit of the law issued to Moses. What the Word of God is relaying to us, when it speaks negatively of the law, is the distorted law, changed by man (the scribes and Pharisees) to fit their interpretations, gratifying their fleshly desires of self-righteousness, rather than to see the righteousness of God.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I wanted to point out that with the above verse about the spiritual aspect of the law, the very next chapter begins by saying this:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

And also, another scriptural connection with 1 Corinthians Ch 3.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


2 Corinthians 3: 13 unlike Moshe, who put a veil over his face, so that the people of Isra'el would not see the fading brightness come to an end. 14 What is more, their minds were made stonelike; for to this day the same veil remains over them when they read the Old Covenant; it has not been unveiled, because only by the Messiah is the veil taken away. 15 Yes, till today, whenever Moshe is read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 "But," says the Torah, "whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away." (CJB)

The above passage speaks about the vail that was over their eyes. The account of Paul having scales over his eyes gives a picture of this. Paul had followed the letter of the word, and understood it more than most up to that point, but he didn't see Jesus in all of it. He instead, being zealous for the law according to the flesh he persecuted Christians.

Then God sent Ananias to Paul:

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

As the word says in 2 Corinthians:
"The law had not been not been unveiled, because only by the Messiah is the veil taken away. 15 Yes, till today, whenever Moshe is read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 "But," says the Torah, "whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away."

Great study brother, I'm enjoying reading this while examining the scriptures very much.

 

[2Tim3vs16]

I believe that the Mosaic Law was set into place as a tutor to the people of Israel; how God wanted them to worship him because they would be in the line that God was going to fulfill the prophesy. God promised to Abraham that he would provide a way out for all mankind thru his seed, his lineage.

All the way up to the end of the Hebrew Scriptures when the prophesy was fulfilled. Christ himself grew up learning those scriptures and observing his Heavenly Father's Laws. Jesus was meant to be an example of perfect human worship vs. imperfect human worship...he did it perfectly compared to his human family. By giving his son to be that example, God was showing us that Adam could've remained faithful too.

Christ said that his sacrifice would mean a New Covenant, or arrangement, with mankind. And that it replaces the Mosaic Law that God's people were subjected to up until his presence and sacrifice fulfilled prophecy.

That would mean that God's chosen people, Israel, at the time, were never intended permanently his literal people. God had a larger plan that would include ALL his earthly human children. God used particular children to serve a specific purpose: He used the nation of Israel to bring his son into the world. Why?

To teach human's why life is the way it is and how God's working on restoring order, how we need to behave in the meantime. We have our part to play. If we don't, he explained consequences and if we submit to God's expectations then the reward. Once Christ did all he was sent to do. He had to seal the deal, Christ take a few who would rule over the Kingdom "belongings" that his Father was going to bestow on him for the ransom sacrifice that he faithfully completed on our behalf. He would chose humans, bought from tribes, tongues, and nations. The rest would reside, restored to perfection...no more death, nor outcry, nor pain be anymore. Because the former things will have passed away.

So the hope of everlasting life was God's promise to his people and those people are no longer only people of literal Jewish decent. The promise that God made to the Jewish nation was fulfilled as part of the mission to send his son to earth. The 'promised land' and freedom from slavery was what God said he would give them and he did. But they lost their reward of the time. God fulfilled his promise and when Jesus made a New Covenant that included ALL humans. It dissolved the notion that literal Jews were God's only people. Christ sacrifice now all people could choose to be of the chosen flock. We just have to choose to learn and meet God's expectations by reflecting his values and principles in our actions.

That's what the Mosaic Law was about from what the history looks like to me. God's consistent, he gives us examples that will help us learn what he wants us to. Human's make consistent mistakes. It's not hard to figure out if we're paying attention like he told us to. Is it? He doesn't ask more than we are capable of. He made us to have good sense and reasoning...we just need to use it when we are reading what he's saying and not arguing what we are thinking.

 

[just-me]

2 Corinthians 3: 13 unlike Moshe, who put a veil over his face, so that the people of Isra'el would not see the fading brightness come to an end. 14 What is more, their minds were made stonelike; for to this day the same veil remains over them when they read the Old Covenant; it has not been unveiled, because only by the Messiah is the veil taken away. 15 Yes, till today, whenever Moshe is read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 "But," says the Torah, "whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away." (CJB)

The above passage speaks about the vail that was over their eyes. The account of Paul having scales over his eyes gives a picture of this. Paul had followed the letter of the word, and understood it more than most up to that point, but he didn't see Jesus in all of it. He instead, being zealous for the law according to the flesh he persecuted Christians.

Great!! Bringing this out might spark a sensitivity to the fact that we can help, and be helped in moving toward a better understanding, and agree on the Word of God that agrees with itself. We are to edify each other. It is wrong to cause a stalmate, and be determined to force our belief systems on others, and never coming to agreement of the truth. When that happens, we don't have it right. We should show ourselves approve unto God. That doesn't mean we have to do something to be approve by God. We are to supposed to prove the truth by the truth so understand the truth.

 

[just-me]

Christ said that his sacrifice would mean a New Covenant, or arrangement, with mankind. And that it replaces the Mosaic Law that God's people were subjected to up until his presence and sacrifice fulfilled prophecy.

Well put. But the highlighted portion is something that causes contention. Could you explain further, and in more detail what you mean, knowing what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 and hat Paul said in Romans 7:12-14?
Thank you for your input my friend.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is wrong to cause a stalmate, and be determined to force our belief systems on others, and never coming to agreement of the truth. When that happens, we don't have it right. We should show ourselves approve unto God. That doesn't mean we have to do something to be approve by God. We are to supposed to prove the truth by the truth so understand the truth.

There is no stalemate. That is just another false characterization. There are those who see the truth, and those who don't. I have noted on several occasions that you just ignore convincing arguments that refute your teachings, and continue on your merry way. That's not dealing honestly with issues to prove the truth. That's just being obstinate.

 

[chubbena]

Quite a few reasons.

1. Many (although they deny it) are preaching a works of the law based Gospel. And must be dealt with
2. many are claiming that the law is a means by which we can know how to do good, be morally correct people, Know the will of God, and live out our christian lives, Which we see in the OT people, they never worked. So why should we not try to remove and fight those who would attempt to try to place unders under the yoke of the law?
3. Many, (who preach law) condemn and argue and fight, even outright attack unfoundly those who do not believe one is made righteous (morrally or spiritually) by following the law. But by following the law of Christ (love)

and her-in is where the arguments and hate come in.

I have been around many people who preach law. And from what I see in them.

1. They are proud
2. They can be argumentnantive
3. they are very judgmental
4. They attack anyone who does not agree with them
5. They get to the point they make false accusations against people who do not agree with them
6. So on and so forth (I could continue for awhile)

The fact is. I can think of one person in this chat room of the top of my head who has not done any of the above. And he has not been around for awhile.

The fact is, preaching law brings about all kinds of phariseeism.. why would we want to do that to God, or his church?

The law is the mean to check if one truely has the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit in us is against the law then it's not the Holy Spirit. Either that or the Bereans examined the scripture in vain.
David preached the law in Psalm 119, the most long winded of all. Was he proud, argumentative, judgmental and other accursations you have against? Don't forget he's also a preacher of grace albeit more accurately than the preachers of grace today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The law is the mean to check if one truely has the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit in us is against the law then it's not the Holy Spirit. Either that or the Bereans examined the scripture in vain.
David preached the law in Psalm 119, the most long winded of all. Was he proud, argumentative, judgmental and other accursations you have against? Don't forget he's also a preacher of grace albeit more accurately than the preachers of grace today.

lol. Then I guess the pharisees (strict obeyers of the law) must have been spiritual.

People can obey ten commands, and appear righteous, This is the worse thing we could use to prove who is from God or not.. Even gentiles (who never had the law) obeyed the things in the law.

 

[RedTent]

=2Tim3vs16; Christ said that his sacrifice would mean a New Covenant, or arrangement, with mankind. And that it replaces the Mosaic Law that God's people were subjected to up until his presence and sacrifice fulfilled prophecy.

That's what the Mosaic Law was about from what the history looks like to me. God's consistent, he gives us examples that will help us learn what he wants us to. Human's make consistent mistakes. It's not hard to figure out if we're paying attention like he told us to. Is it? He doesn't ask more than we are capable of. He made us to have good sense and reasoning...we just need to use it when we are reading what he's saying and not arguing what we are thinking.[

Christ explained the new covenant so well when He told us that every bit of the law was not to be changed at all. Christ said "you have been told" and then He gave an example of a law that was not to be changed. Then Christ said "but I tell you" and He explained how it was to be obeyed in spirit and truth in addition to how it had been obeyed.

When new covenant people say that it means we don't have law any more, we only have what comes from spirit and truth, they are distorting the new covenant.

 

[just-me]

The law is the mean to check if one truely has the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit in us is against the law then it's not the Holy Spirit. Either that or the Bereans examined the scripture in vain.
David preached the law in Psalm 119, the most long winded of all. Was he proud, argumentative, judgmental and other accursations you have against? Don't forget he's also a preacher of grace albeit more accurately than the preachers of grace today.

Ok. I read what both of you wrote. Now without any labeling, is there a way to come to terms of agreement with scripture, without using scripture to negate other parts of scripture?