Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[just-me]

Christ explained the new covenant so well when He told us that every bit of the law was not to be changed at all. Christ said "you have been told" and then He gave an example of a law that was not to be changed. Then Christ said "but I tell you" and He explained how it was to be obeyed in spirit and truth in addition to how it had been obeyed.

When new covenant people say that it means we don't have law any more, we only have what comes from spirit and truth, they are distorting the new covenant.

I agree so far, but may I add that the wine in the old wineskin, or bottle is the old covenant right? The wine is first drank from the wineskin, and then the old container is discarded. Am I right so far? So it would behoove us to identify the wine rather than the skin. It's like judging the contents by its container, because the old skin is stretched to its limit, and will burst if it is stretched any more. It has done its job to preserve the wine, but has become useless after the wine has been drunk that was in it. I think we might be concentrating more on the container rather than the contents.

 

[just-me]

What does the wine in the wineskin represent?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hope you are right, Roger. I feel that it is part of the birth pangs of the last days. Demons have used this idea to lead many churches into accepting immoral people into the body of Christ. Many Christians are accepting that any time the bible points out sin it is part of the law of Moses, and not to be listened to. They point out that God loves all, and accepts all in His kingdom, so we must, too. I don't know of one church who practices the church discipline that we are told to practice in scripture. These people self righteously practice one part of scripture without completing the teaching.

The church has always led in telling even the secular world how to live. The history of the settlement of the western states in America explains that. The new towns were not safe until the church came to the town. Now, there is almost as much immorality inside the church as outside.

lol.. I have only witnessed 1, maybe 2 people claim that no one should listen to the law when it comes to sin.

So where does this stuff come from?

There is MUCH MORE people saying that people who do not look to the law to see how to do the will of God are people who IGNORE the law. Which is not true.

Not using it for what it was never intended for in the first place is not ignoring it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ explained the new covenant so well when He told us that every bit of the law was not to be changed at all. Christ said "you have been told" and then He gave an example of a law that was not to be changed. Then Christ said "but I tell you" and He explained how it was to be obeyed in spirit and truth in addition to how it had been obeyed.

When new covenant people say that it means we don't have law any more, we only have what comes from spirit and truth, they are distorting the new covenant.

Again I disagree.

The new covenant FULFILLS the law. And no one is stating we do not have a law anymore. they are stating IT CAN NOT MAKE US MORALLY GOOD PEOPLE..

A HUGE difference!

 

[just-me]

The agreement that was broken is the wineskin/Old Covenant. The wine in the contents of the broken agreement written by God, and not by man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The agreement that was broken is the wineskin/Old Covenant. The wine in the contents of the broken agreement written by God, and not by man.

One does not put new wine (new covenant) in with the old wineskin (the the law) for the wineskin will break, and the new wine will spill.

they put new wine (new covenant) in the new wineskin) the law of Christ, and both survive.

the moral of the story, Do not mix the old with the new, the new will be destroyed.

 

[Graybeard]

This is our web site. The Purpose Of The Mosaic Law (Part 1 of 5)

Anything that you would like to copy and post you can. This thread is meant to find out why Christians fight Christians in the plain view of atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians.

This thread is also for the purpose of considering, and musing about what the onlookers to this contention must be thinking.

This thread is for the purpose of defining whether or not contentious conversations are profitable for edification, or are we truly making progress by unchanging disagreements?

Are we supposed to embrace the Mosaic Law after we come to the knowledge of the truth, or are we supposed to reject it, as a thing of the past after being converted to Christianity?

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

I recently viewed a lot of teachings by a Michael Rood and many things he teaches I have never heard but was fascinated at what he taught. A lot of his teachings make the Bible come alive, but for the past few weeks I have really wrestled with his teachings about following the Mosaic Laws as they go opposite to what Paul teaches......until I read in Acts where the Apostles and Elders discussed this very subject with much debate and they answer it in my view once-for-all (I'm still unsure about celebrating the Feasts of God)

Act 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Act 15:2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
Act 15:9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
Act 15:13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
Act 15:14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
Act 15:15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
Act 15:16 'AFTER THIS I WILL RETURN AND WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID, WHICH HAS FALLEN DOWN; I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL SET IT UP;
Act 15:17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, EVEN ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, SAYS THE LORD WHO DOES ALL THESE THINGS.'
Act 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Act 15:19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Act 15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
Act 15:23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—
Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

 

[Linda70]

I recently viewed a lot of teachings by a Michael Rood and many things he teaches I have never heard but was fascinated at what he taught. A lot of his teachings make the Bible come alive, but for the past few weeks I have really wrestled with his teachings about following the Mosaic Laws as they go opposite to what Paul teaches......until I read in Acts where the Apostles and Elders discussed this very subject with much debate and they answer it in my view once-for-all (I'm still unsure about celebrating the Feasts of God)

Graybeard,

Beware of Michael Rood...here's why:

Michael Rood is a self-proclaimed Messianic preacher who was ordained as a Christian minister in The Way International (TWI).

Rood has continued many of the themes and practices which made TWI theologically a cult of Christianity.

"Michael John Rood is an ordained nondenominational Christian minister and Messianic rabbi," according to a brochure Rood produced to promote his seminars which have been held around the United States
[...]

Unfortunately, Michael John Rood and his teachings are not credible or accurate. Rood is not trained, certified or recognized as a Rabbi, and his "ordination" by a cult called The Way International (TWI) required only minor instruction in an unaccredited TWI program. His central teachings depart radically from the evangelical Christian faith, and several of his teachings and practices are typical among cults rather than among Christians or Messianic Jews (that is, Jews who have accepted Yeshua [Jesus Christ] as Lord and Savior). Furthermore, many of his teachings and practices are drawn from a cult called The Way International which was incorporated in 1954 and widely denounced by Christian leaders and TWI's ex-followers alike. About 95% of TWI's followers have left TWI after seeing its severe errors, and many ex-leaders of TWI have founded a variety of splinter groups or ministries, just as Rood has.
[...]

Michael Rood | Apologetics Index

 

[Graybeard]

I agree so far, but may I add that the wine in the old wineskin, or bottle is the old covenant right? The wine is first drank from the wineskin, and then the old container is discarded. Am I right so far? So it would behoove us to identify the wine rather than the skin. It's like judging the contents by its container, because the old skin is stretched to its limit, and will burst if it is stretched any more. It has done its job to preserve the wine, but has become useless after the wine has been drunk that was in it. I think we might be concentrating more on the container rather than the contents.

actually no, not sure where I heard it but apparently they could and did revive the old wine skins by massaging them with oil which made them supple again and could be used again.

 

[crossnote]

Those claiming the Christian is under the law need to answer Acts 15:10 as seen in post #27 above.

 

[Graybeard]

Graybeard,

Beware of Michael Rood...here's why:

Linda...beware of being a false witness, you cannot take everything one reads on the internet as gospel. See his testimony by his own words, he exposes TWI as he was made aware of a lot of sexual abuse that went on within the leadership which made him question their beliefs. If you want to know more about the man himself then listen to his testimony in a video called "Michael Rood Exposed" ....I ask myself this, How can God use a man in this way if his teachings are from Satan...it just cannot be possible, so I conclude to myself that I will not judge him but rather will take some of the nuggets that he has to offer and use them as some of them are good.

 

[just-me]

I recently viewed a lot of teachings by a Michael Rood and many things he teaches I have never heard but was fascinated at what he taught. A lot of his teachings make the Bible come alive, but for the past few weeks I have really wrestled with his teachings about following the Mosaic Laws as they go opposite to what Paul teaches......until I read in Acts where the Apostles and Elders discussed this very subject with much debate and they answer it in my view once-for-all (I'm still unsure about celebrating the Feasts of God)

Very good scriptures. I like that passage in Acts. There has been discussions about circumcision, as of late, but it was never brought to bear, as to why God would have a law such as that. Paul stated it correct when he said that it made no difference, and didn't mean anything to be circumcised or uncircumcised in the flesh. He was absolutely right! I think that what most people are missing, is that it has everything to do with conception. Now Jesus ask Nicodemus why he didn't know about being born again, as he was a ruler in the temple. In other words, Jesus knew that he should know, and I think it had everything to do with circumcision. If we, according to the law, are to circumcise the foreskin of our heart, we become better equipped to conceive new born babies into the Kingdom of God. It is firmly connected with the great commission. thank you for bringing it up my friend.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What does the wine in the wineskin represent?

Wine typically, if not always, symbolizes the holy spirit. Christ's parable about not putting new wine in old wineskins illustrated why he picked disciples who were unlearned men in the law (new wineskins) to teach them the new covenant of the spirit. The pharisees, who were learned in the old covenant of the law (old wineskins), for the most part rejected his teachings of the spirit.

 

[Graybeard]

Wine typically, if not always, symbolizes the holy spirit. Christ's parable about not putting new wine in old wineskins illustrated why he picked disciples who were unlearned men in the law (new wineskins) to teach them the new covenant of the spirit. The pharisees, who were learned in the old covenant of the law (old wineskins), for the most part rejected his teachings of the spirit.

That's interesting, where do you get that they were not unlearned in the law?, I always thought that they being Jews would have attended the synagogues on the Sabbath for the reading of the laws and would have had the average knowledge of Jews about the laws.

 

[just-me]

actually no, not sure where I heard it but apparently they could and did revive the old wine skins by massaging them with oil which made them supple again and could be used again.

I was referring to scripture only. but I didn't know that, and it appears you are right, for I find nothing in the Bible that says to discard the container. thanks Maybe someone someday will find scripture to confirm or dis-confirm my assumption. Thanks for the edification brother.
Luke 5:37-38 (CJB)
37 Also, no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and be spilled, and the skins too will be ruined. 38 On the contrary, new wine must be put into freshly prepared wineskins.
Matthew 9:16-17 (CJB)
16 No one patches an old coat with a piece of unshrunk cloth, because the patch tears away from the coat and leaves a worse hole. 17 Nor do people put new wine in old wineskins; if they do, the skins burst, the wine spills and the wineskins are ruined. No, they pour new wine into freshly prepared wineskins, and in this way both are preserved."

Both the win in the old and new skins are preserved.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Very good scriptures. I like that passage in Acts. There has been discussions about circumcision, as of late, but it was never brought to bear, as to why God would have a law such as that. Paul stated it correct when he said that it made no difference, and didn't mean anything to be circumcised or uncircumcised in the flesh. He was absolutely right! I think that what most people are missing, is that it has everything to do with conception. Now Jesus ask Nicodemus why he didn't know about being born again, as he was a ruler in the temple. In other words, Jesus knew that he should know, and I think it had everything to do with circumcision. If we, according to the law, are to circumcise the foreskin of our heart, we become better equipped to conceive new born babies into the Kingdom of God. It is firmly connected with the great commission. thank you for bringing it up my friend.

I think you missed the point of Acts 15. The Jewish leaders of the church ruled that gentiles were under no obligation to keep the law of Moses. It was an epic decision in Christian history that quelled the confusion caused by false teachers from Jerusalem who were trying to bring gentile disciples under bondage to the law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's interesting, where do you get that they were not unlearned in the law?, I always thought that they being Jews would have attended the synagogues on the Sabbath for the reading of the laws and would have had the average knowledge of Jews about the laws.

They were fishermen, tax collector, etc. They worked for a living. They didn't spend their days studying the scrolls under learned rabbis like the pharisees did. But they obviously knew enough for Jesus to work with.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13​

 

[just-me]

wine is the judgments of God
The Meaning of Wine
Oil symolizes the Holy Spirit
Oil as Symbol (Forerunner Commentary) - Bible Tools

 

[Least]

Very good scriptures. I like that passage in Acts. There has been discussions about circumcision, as of late, but it was never brought to bear, as to why God would have a law such as that. Paul stated it correct when he said that it made no difference, and didn't mean anything to be circumcised or uncircumcised in the flesh. He was absolutely right! I think that what most people are missing, is that it has everything to do with conception. Now Jesus ask Nicodemus why he didn't know about being born again, as he was a ruler in the temple. In other words, Jesus knew that he should know, and I think it had everything to do with circumcision. If we, according to the law, are to circumcise the foreskin of our heart, we become better equipped to conceive new born babies into the Kingdom of God. It is firmly connected with the great commission. thank you for bringing it up my friend.

I've always associated the Circumcision of the heart with the new wine.

It's even described in Duet.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The old wineskins, being part of the flesh and the natural before the circumcised heart, and new wine where our heart is changed from a stony heart, the bible says that God will take away the stony heart, and give us a heart of flesh.

Actually, the verses itself says it best.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

I believe that those who walked closest with God in the OT, understood this. Not everyone did. God called them a "stiffnecked" people in Deuteronomy, even in the same passage where HE talks about taking away their stony heart.

There are also several passages in the OT that talk about the "new wine."

I don't think that the new wine washed away the old wine. Even at the wedding feast, where Jesus did his first miracle it says this:

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
John 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

[Graybeard]

I was referring to scripture only. but I didn't know that, and it appears you are right, for I find nothing in the Bible that says to discard the container. thanks Maybe someone someday will find scripture to confirm or dis-confirm my assumption. Thanks for the edification brother.
Luke 5:37-38 (CJB)
37 Also, no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and be spilled, and the skins too will be ruined. 38 On the contrary, new wine must be put into freshly prepared wineskins.
Matthew 9:16-17 (CJB)
16 No one patches an old coat with a piece of unshrunk cloth, because the patch tears away from the coat and leaves a worse hole. 17 Nor do people put new wine in old wineskins; if they do, the skins burst, the wine spills and the wineskins are ruined. No, they pour new wine into freshly prepared wineskins, and in this way both are preserved."

Both the win in the old and new skins are preserved.

just thought I'd point that out, not sure if there is any meaning to it though