Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[Yahshua]

That's really not the context at all. The context was that some Judeans were claiming that circumcision (a commandment in the law of Moses) and keeping the law of Moses were required of all believers in order for them to be saved. That's not phariseeism; that's legalism.

Christ didn't come to teach us how to follow laws. He came to teach us how to walk justly in the holy spirit. That is accomplished through faith, and only through faith. Faith is the antithesis of law-keeping.

Faith is confidence and trust in GOD that he will accomplish our salvation; whereas faith in works of law is confidence and trust that GOD will accept us based on what we do. Works of law are the manifestation of the absence of faith.

Faith says, 'Look what you've done, GOD'. Works of law says, 'Look what I've done, GOD.'

But the context is given from the scripture...

Acts 15

15 And *certain* men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up *certain* of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The context is not simply that "some Judeans", but that specifically Pharisees stood up making this demand, to which Peter replied to *them* like he did. I'm giving the context of when Pharisees speak about "the law of Moses" they are not talking about the law of Moses but their takanot considered part of the law. This is the yolk no one can bear.

 

[just-me]

Deuteronomy 4:2

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The "Separated Ones" (Prushim/Pharisees) rejected Christ as "The Prophet" that was to come because they were so convinced he was a sinner because Christ regularly broke their rules, which in their minds was God's Law by their authority. Also, being a supposed child of Joseph out of wed-lock (a "child of fornication") who lives in the Galilee (area of gentiles), Christ was assumed by them as "illegitimate" to that prophecy. And this "illegitimate" prophet was teaching EVERYONE to also break the Takanot of the Pharisees, emptying synagogues by droves.

I have never heard it explained better. And we see where the contention begins. I have said for some time, that adding or subtracting from any part of God's creation is sin, and all that He has ever said, are a large part of His creation.

 

[Yahshua]

[...]
Christ didn't come to teach us how to follow laws. He came to teach us how to walk justly in the holy spirit. That is accomplished through faith, and only through faith. Faith is the antithesis of law-keeping.

Faith is confidence and trust in GOD that he will accomplish our salvation; whereas faith in works of law is confidence and trust that GOD will accept us based on what we do. Works of law are the manifestation of the absence of faith.

Faith says, 'Look what you've done, GOD'. Works of law says, 'Look what I've done, GOD.'

In keeping with the theme of this thread to get to the bottom of the contention concerning the law, I'd like to ask a few questions (and anyone can answer if they want to share their perspectives...maybe I'm missing something):

It is written that Zechariah and Elizabeth were in ALL points blameless in obedience to the law of God (Luke 1:6)

Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing *all* the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

[It's important to note that not every child of Israel had to obey every single law of God, because some where exclusively for Levites...some were for priests...some were for women...some were for men. But with Zechariah & Elizabeth being of the house of Aaron (i.e. Levites AND priest house AND male AND female), they by far had the MOST laws to follow...yet they did it *perfectly* ALL their lives...and scripture notes that they were OLD.]

Question 1: How did they do this if it's impossible for anyone to do? And why does scripture say they were righteous in the eyes of God if "no one" can be righteous by following God's law?

Question 2: Do you think it's a coincidence that it was prophesied that their son (a seed from a perfectly obedient man & woman) would be *filled* with the Holy Spirit from the womb?

The reason why I ask this question is because we know Christ was born of the Holy Spirit and he was blameless in all the law. Then we have his cousin who's parents were blameless in all the law and he is fill with the Holy Spirit from the womb. So I'm seeing a connection between the Holy Spirit and Obedience to God's Law (like I've mentioned in other threads).

Question 3: We know Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous because scripture says so and it can't be broken...but were they "self-righteous"? If they were self-righteous, why? If they weren't self-righteous, why not?

I can see a Pharisee following his *own* law being labeled "self-righteous" (as by definition, they've established their own standard for righteousness), but I can't understand how a person following God's laws (God's standard of righteousness, not their own) is also labeled "self-righteous". They would be "the righteousness of God" like Zech and Liz, wouldn't they?

 

[psychomom]

[It's important to note that not every child of Israel had to obey every single law of God, because some where exclusively for Levites...some were for priests...some were for women...some were for men. But with Zechariah & Elizabeth being of the house of Aaron (i.e. Levites AND priest house AND male AND female), they by far had the MOST laws to follow...yet they did it *perfectly* ALL their lives...and scripture notes that they were OLD.]

You do realize that by saying this, you place these two people on par with the Lord Jesus,
the only Man to ever be sinless?

And you negate the scripture that says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? (Rom. 3:23)
And you negate the following:

Gal. 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

What would you like to do with Luke 1:20?
God doesn't look only at deeds...He sees our hearts.
Do you honestly think their hearts were without sin??

Zechariah did not believe God's words to him.
Is that sinlessness?

Is it possible Elizabeth and Zechariah looked for and believed in the coming Messiah,
and their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness?
The Bible tells us this is the True Righteousness, the only Righteousness, obtained by faith in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

"since by the works of the Law NO flesh shall be justified."

 

[Least]

You do realize that by saying this, you place these two people on par with the Lord Jesus,
the only Man to ever be sinless?

And you negate the scripture that says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? (Rom. 3:23)
And you negate the following:

Gal. 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

What would you like to do with Luke 1:20?
God doesn't look only at deeds...He sees our hearts.
Do you honestly think their hearts were without sin??

Zechariah did not believe God's words to him.
Is that sinlessness?

Is it possible Elizabeth and Zechariah looked for and believed in the coming Messiah,
and their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness?
The Bible tells us this is the True Righteousness, the only Righteousness, obtained by faith in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

"since by the works of the Law NO flesh shall be justified."

Paul writes in Galatians that if we walk by the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Apart from Christ we can do nothing and without Christ a person is simply setting out to establish their own righteousness. Remember, most of the Pharisees completely rejected Christ and still saw themselves as righteous.

Establishing our own righteousness happens by not trusting in the Lord, leaning on our own understanding or the understanding of others and trusting in them rather than in God.

What God says is righteous, is righteous.

 

[JaumeJ]

Would you also say the following is meant as instruction or is it true, also which references to the laws of the Father are incorrect in your esteem?



Psa 119:1
ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

Psa 119:2
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

Psa 119:3
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

Psa 119:4
Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

Psa 119:5
O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

Psa 119:6
Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Psa 119:7
I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

Psa 119:8
I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

Psa 119:9
BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Psa 119:10
With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Psa 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psa 119:12
Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:13
With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

Psa 119:14
I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

Psa 119:15
I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

Psa 119:16
I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psa 119:17
GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.

Psa 119:18
Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psa 119:19
I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

Psa 119:20
My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.

Psa 119:21
Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Psa 119:22
Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

Psa 119:23
Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

Psa 119:24
Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

Psa 119:25
DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Psa 119:26
I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:27
Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

Psa 119:28
My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

Psa 119:29
Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.

Psa 119:30
I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

Psa 119:31
I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.

Psa 119:32
I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

Psa 119:33
HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

Psa 119:34
Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

Psa 119:35
Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Psa 119:36
Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Psa 119:37
Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

Psa 119:38
Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

Psa 119:39
Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

Psa 119:40
Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

Psa 119:41
VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

Psa 119:42
So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Psa 119:43
And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

Psa 119:44
So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Psa 119:45
And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Psa 119:46
I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

Psa 119:47
And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

Psa 119:48
My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

Psa 119:49
ZAIN. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

Psa 119:50
This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa 119:51
The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.

Psa 119:52
I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself.

Psa 119:53
Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Psa 119:54
Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

Psa 119:55
I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

Psa 119:56
This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

Psa 119:57
CHETH. Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

Psa 119:58
I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

Psa 119:59
I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.

Psa 119:60
I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.

Psa 119:61
The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.

Psa 119:62
At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.

Psa 119:63
I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

Psa 119:64
The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:65
TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Psa 119:66
Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.

Psa 119:67
Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

Psa 119:68
Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:69
The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.

Psa 119:70
Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

Psa 119:71
It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Psa 119:72
The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

Psa 119:73
JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Psa 119:74
They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Psa 119:75
I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

Psa 119:76
Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

Psa 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Psa 119:78
Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

Psa 119:79
Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.

Psa 119:80
Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.

Psa 119:81
CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Psa 119:82
Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

Psa 119:83
For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.

Psa 119:84
How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

Psa 119:85
The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

Psa 119:86
All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

Psa 119:87
They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.

Psa 119:88
Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

Psa 119:89
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psa 119:90
Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Psa 119:91
They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.

Psa 119:92
Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psa 119:93
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Psa 119:94
I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

(due to the length of the Psalm I am obliged to omit part, you may read all in your Word.)


Psa 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

I think the problem I'm beginning to see is the belief that law of Moses is merely meant as instruction. That's part of what the law is, but more importantly the commandments are mandates that demand one's death, or that one be cursed, if they are disobeyed. For some reason this aspect of the law of Moses is being ignored, and the spiritual realities of Christ's commandments that he spoke while on earth and through his apostles are being transferred to what is called the moral law of the law of Moses. It really is turning everything upside down.

 

[JaumeJ]

What the majority do not accept is that Yeshua taught from Torah, that is the teachings given the prophets by Yahweh. He opened our eyes to the gospel of truth revealing how He fulfilled the Law and the prophets. People with itching ears caring only for teachers who will tell them things they like will say Yeshua abolished the law, and all who truly know Him know this is a lie.

In fulfilling the law, Yeshua has abolished the curse of the law for all who believe Him, that is the punishment and ultimately death from breaking the law. Anyone who knows mercy knows not to wish this punishment on anyone, because Yeshua desires mercy and not sacrifice, they are forgiven, providing they believe the Lamb of Yahweh.

Teaching against the commandments of Yahweh is teaching against all He has taught us, and saying His desires are not good enough for them. Repent, believe the Word, worship Yahweh. God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[psychomom]

Paul writes in Galatians that if we walk by the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Apart from Christ we can do nothing and without Christ a person is simply setting out to establish their own righteousness. Remember, most of the Pharisees completely rejected Christ and still saw themselves as righteous.

Establishing our own righteousness happens by not trusting in the Lord, leaning on our own understanding or the understanding of others and trusting in them rather than in God.

What God says is righteous, is righteous.

Rom. 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,
so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom. 3:21-30
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time,
so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Phil. 3:2-11
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord,
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ,
the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Apologies for length...but I think the Word of God makes it clear that establishing our own righteousness means not trusting the righteousness that comes by faith in the Work Jesus did for us.

Christ our Righteousness.
Our only Righteousness. ♥

 

[loveme1]

Revelation 12

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon knows who to make war with.

 

[just-me]

You do realize that by saying this, you place these two people on par with the Lord Jesus,
the only Man to ever be sinless?

And you negate the scripture that says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? (Rom. 3:23)
And you negate the following:

Gal. 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

What would you like to do with Luke 1:20?
God doesn't look only at deeds...He sees our hearts.
Do you honestly think their hearts were without sin??

Zechariah did not believe God's words to him.
Is that sinlessness?

Is it possible Elizabeth and Zechariah looked for and believed in the coming Messiah,
and their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness?
The Bible tells us this is the True Righteousness, the only Righteousness, obtained by faith in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

"since by the works of the Law NO flesh shall be justified."

Please don't instigate contention by explaining truth and not completing it as a whole, such as all scripture together does. You must include the heart when talking about being righteous. From the heart comes the works of righteousness by faith. You did well in your post 104 to include the heart.

Isaiah 38:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

1 Samuel 16:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Motivation gal, motivation....... Motives, and intentions.
Are we entering into His presences with self-righteous boldness, or are we bold enough to confess our sins in in detail, and having that kind of heart accounted to us for righteousness? How many people do we know who confess their sins with boldness? Everybody's heart can answer these questions for ourselves, and the answer isn't very pretty for the most part, as I have noticed. There are self-righteous people on both sides of this issue. We can tell who is who by their attitude/fruit.


Ephesians 3:9-13 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

 

[psychomom]

Please don't instigate contention by explaining truth and not completing it as a whole, such as all scripture together does. You must include the heart when talking about being righteous. From the heart comes the works of righteousness by faith. You did well in your post 104 to include the heart.

Isaiah 38:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

1 Samuel 16:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Motivation gal, motivation....... Motives, and intentions.
Are we entering into His presences with self-righteous boldness, or are we bold enough to confess our sins in in detail, and having that kind of heart accounted to us for righteousness? How many people do we know who confess their sins with boldness? Everybody's heart can answer these questions for ourselves, and the answer isn't very pretty for the most part, as I have noticed. There are self-righteous people on both sides of this issue. We can tell who is who by their attitude/fruit.


Ephesians 3:9-13 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

I'm a little confused since that is my post #104...

And I'm sad to say I don't know my own heart, not as God does.
You see, it's deceitful and desperately wicked.

I think that's why David prayed so often for the Lord to show him his heart, and to forgive him his hidden sins.

I've been taught that a perfect heart is one that accepts the will of God for them.
One that is disposed to God, no matter the consequences.
We see that in Mary's song, after it was revealed to her she would give birth.

What do you think?

 

[just-me]

I'm a little confused since that is my post #104...

And I'm sad to say I don't know my own heart, not as God does.
You see, it's deceitful and desperately wicked.

I think that's why David prayed so often for the Lord to show him his heart, and to forgive him his hidden sins.

I've been taught that a perfect heart is one that accepts the will of God for them.
One that is disposed to God, no matter the consequences.
We see that in Mary's song, after it was revealed to her she would give birth.

What do you think?

Please go back and read what I wrote, as I mentioned your post #104 at the beginning.

You are right about Mary, and David. Like David said, let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight. Both Mary and David were Jews, and were from the tribe of Judah, the name Judah being the foundation of the shorter term during Roman rule as "Jew."

Now, I ask all reading this; Why is there contention? The answer is that we are too proud to see the heart of the other person, and even our own heart as God sees us. This is a big failure on our part, not to stop and really look at the truth. Yet if there is contention on purpose, we can also see that kind of heart.
Does that make us judgmental? YES if we are condemning, and NO if we are discerning.
Let's stop trying to convert others by instigating division. Causing division is not the heart that it takes to convert, for it comes from a heart that is overly proud.
Are we really wanting to know the truth, or are we trying to convert people, that revere the Mosaic Law, by condemning what they believe in their heart. If so, the heart isn't right. Wow, there's the heart thing.
Proverbs 16:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

May God bless you in all wisdom.
And psychomom, thank you for sharing your heart!! It is always inspirational when we see the real heart of other beleivers in Christ Jesus

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm a little confused since that is my post #104...

And I'm sad to say I don't know my own heart, not as God does.
You see, it's deceitful and desperately wicked.

I think that's why David prayed so often for the Lord to show him his heart, and to forgive him his hidden sins.

I've been taught that a perfect heart is one that accepts the will of God for them.
One that is disposed to God, no matter the consequences.
We see that in Mary's song, after it was revealed to her she would give birth.

What do you think?

I think it shows us truth.

The law could not show david his hidden sin, because the law was just a guideline, a tool used by God to show us our sin and imperfection. But it could not show us all our sin, or our total depravity.

Thats why fallowing the law. we will not only decieve ourselves into thinking we are righteous. Nut miss out on the more important things God wants in our lives.

We will be religious, and stagnant in our Christian growth,

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Question 1: How did they do this if it's impossible for anyone to do? And why does scripture say they were righteous in the eyes of God if "no one" can be righteous by following God's law?

They were righteous because of their faith and were blameless because they were faithful to GOD's revealed will at that time. In other words, they had faith in GOD, which made them righteous, which they expressed blamelessly through what GOD had mandated for that people and time, i.e., law. It doesn't say that they were righteous because they walked in the law; it says they walked blamelessly in the law.

They did not know what we know. We have been blessed with words of light directly from the mouth of GOD himself, rather than words spoken in shadows from the mouth of an imperfect man. To state that the two revelations are equal is beyond foolish.

GOD in the flesh said the work of GOD is to believe into his son. He didn't say to do the works of the law of Moses. GOD on the mount of transfiguration said to listen to his son, not Moses or Elijah. The message? The light has now come; turn from the shadows to the light.

So basically, believing that works of law can perfect someone or make them pleasing to GOD is an anachronistic belief that places them in direct opposition to GOD's revealed will for this people and time.

Question 3: We know Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous because scripture says so and it can't be broken...but were they "self-righteous"? If they were self-righteous, why? If they weren't self-righteous, why not?

They were righteous because of faith. They were blameless in the law because they met its requirements for themselves. That is a far cry from fulfilling the law by meeting all of its requirements perfectly. Elizabeth and Zechariah didn't keep the law perfectly; they were blameless because they offered the required sacrifices when they sinned.

Christ's sacrifice paid for sins committed against the law under the old covenant. That law has been satisfied, and the priesthood that officiated it has been abolished. To disregard what has been spoken for this time through the eternal priesthood of Christ, and revert back to a former dispensation of law (under a non-existent priesthood), that is clearly witnessed in scripture can perfect no one, is lawlessness.

 

[overcomer2]

Hebrews 6:1-3 6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. KJV Hebrews 6:1-3 6 Let us stop going over the same old ground again and again, always teaching those first lessons about Christ. Let us go on instead to other things and become mature in our understanding, as strong Christians ought to be. Surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good, or about the necessity of faith in God; 2 you don’t need further instruction about baptism and spiritual gifts[a] and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 The Lord willing, we will go on now to other things. Living Bible

 

[JaumeJ]

I want to thank all the brethren for their contributions in the Forum concerning grace, that wonderful gift. The more I read of this gift of eternal salvation, the more I am convinced the Lord put me on the Way He had just for me so many years ago.

I am not afraid of the law at all because of the contributions of all who believe Yeshua. It no longer has the sting of death, not for me. Therefore I do not fear pleasing the Father in any manner possible.

Because I am saved by the Blood of His Only Begotten son, I will continue to do my best to obey the Father, just as Jesus, Yeshua, did in the flesh.

I know I will not always be perfect, this is why I need Yeshua, but this is no excuse for me to say killing is no longer forbidden, or lusting after what is not mine, or worshipping false gods. No, the law no longer has that sting, death, not for me, so I will not use sin as an excuse ever as a reason to say grace has destroyed the law and when the Father said to do or not do something, and I know it is His good will, I can do my best to obey Him.

Thank you all for strengthening the resolve of so many to continue in obedience to our Maker. Yes, we live in grace, therefore there is no longer need to fear the law for we are free of its sting, so now we should all do our best to obey, for disobedience is likened to idolatry by our Father, Abba, amen.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I know I will not always be perfect, this is why I need Yeshua, but this is no excuse for me to say killing is no longer forbidden, or lusting after what is not mine, or worshipping false gods. No, the law no longer has that sting, death, not for me, so I will not use sin as an excuse ever as a reason to say grace has destroyed the law and when the Father said to do or not do something, and I know it is His good will, I can do my best to obey Him.

Walk in the spirit and you will not do the longings of the flesh that would cause you to kill, covet, or commit idolatry. Thus obedience is walking in the spirit.

 

[JaumeJ]

Obedience is nothing to fear when one has received Yeshua as his Savior. I choose to obey in the freedom from sin afforded me by My Example, Who obeyed unto His death and suffering on the cross just for me, and for all who call on Him in Spirit and truth. There no longer is a need for me to fear the law because its sting has been destroyed on the cross. Living in grace I am free of sin because I no longer fear the law for it no longer has any power over me, thus I may obey God in every way possible, because what He likes for us all is good, and my will is to always please our Maker.

 

[JaumeJ]

I am sorry, I thought you were responding to all of my post, but a quick reread I see you are still hung up on obeying the Father's desires for our benefit. You have no further need to fear the law, I speak of laws on good and moral behavior, because Jesus has set you free of sin, and sin finds it power in the law without grace. The sting of sin, death, has been destroyed, so you no longer need fear doing what is right in good in the eyes of the Father. You will never earn heaven, that is a gift, but you will please our Father. Anyone teaching against the least of the good laws will be least in Heaven............

Walk in the spirit and you will not do the longings of the flesh that would cause you to kill, covet, or commit idolatry. Thus obedience is walking in the spirit.

 

[RedTent]

It is true that to not teach Christ, to not teach the saving power of Christ is deadly.

It is also true that to not teach that we must live morally, to repent of our sins is deadly. (Rev 20:12)
I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

What is happening in our world as a result of our churches being afraid of teaching the importance of the law and morality along with the teaching of the gospel, following the teaching of the bible, is that our world is becoming more and more immoral. I don't know of a church who follows what the bible says about church discipline. The world looks to the church to lead them in defining what is law.

People look to the church for moral and right living. Just as in a family, when the children are raised with no discipline they do not even feel loved. When either Mormons or Muslins are counseled, they will tell you to look at their superior guidance in holy living. Scripture does not mince words about the requirement to follow them in holy living. It teaches the grace, faith, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit and tells us to follow with discipline.