Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#81
Satan is the first to know that disobedience is likened to idolatry by our Father, and he is the first to teach disobedience.
Teaching obedience is accepting that our Father knows what is best for us, and He has shown us in His instructions.
Because perfect love casts out all fear, we have no fear in obeying His will for all good and moral behavior, therefore we do not fear obeying His instruction for moral behavior because we know we live in the grace that comes with salvation.
If anyone wishes to teach against any of the Father's instructions to His children, let that person beware, for this would be of Satan if done knowingly.

Do not be like the assembies spoken of by Isaiah in the 29th chapter who would not have anything to do with any prophesy that did not please them. Itching ears are easily pleased by the enemy. Beware of the false "easy teachings." It is not always easy being a child of Yahweh.
 
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#82
Why dont yo worship idols hmmmm we are not under the law :rolleyes:
I don't worship idols, even those Israelites who were under the law, were blessed when they were obedient to God. Why in the world would you want to compare being under the law to the worshiping of idols? They are opposite of each other. This is a clear example for everybody reading this post, how this contention raises it's head. May God bless you with all wisdom Isdaniel.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#83
Why dont yo worship idols hmmmm we are not under the law :rolleyes:
I have put other people on my ignore list, and I can do the same with you. But before I do that, there is a button in the lower left hand corner that I've used several times before. I can use it on your posts also. I would suppose that other people have already done that, and I hope there is more. Good day, and may the Lord bless you with wisdom.
 
L

Least

Guest
#84
If we are never introduced to the law, is it still possible for it to be written on our hearts? Is it part of the Holy Spirit’s sending conviction to us when we realize we need Jesus as our Savior?
Only the laws or statutes that we are aware of can be written on our hearts. No one can say they have something that they aren’t aware of, nor can they claim to have anything before it has been made or revealed. And yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us toward that realization of needing Christ. We can see today that there are more laws being made on a daily basis. The reason why is because the human race is damaging itself more than we ever have in the history of this country. I give this illustration to show the necessity of rules and laws to sustain a society, and to show that we are daily confronted by rules of conduct from the day we are born. Good consequences show us that we have obeyed the good rules; likewise bad consequences for disobeying good rules. The threat of having to pay those consequences causes conviction. ( Romans 2:14-15 ). The Holy Spirit convicts us through the laws we are aware of, whether specifically outlined in the Mosaic Law or in the echoing words of our loving parents. As in a courtroom setting, the established laws that the judge makes his judgment by are the laws which the defendant will be convicted by if found guilty. If we are truly seeking the Lord’s will, the Holy Spirit will convict us by the laws that we are aware of, or become aware of, when we disobey them. When we are convicted we know we must pay the price. If Jesus has paid the price, we are acquitted, for all of us have disobeyed God’s law. If we do not have the desire to have the law of God (the perfect and righteous One) written in our hearts, by purposely avoiding it, there is no convicting Spirit..
Amen Brother,

I believe that Paul confirms this with his instruction about studying to show ourselves approved, and with the example of the Bereans who studied every matter out, and with the passages about how scripture is living and powerful, and with his talks to the Galatians about still being carnal minded still in need of milk. In order to have that law written on our hearts and minds, (as is promised in the word) we have to be in it!

It's not an automatic instant process, faith and faithfulness: Faithful in studying the word prayerfully, faith in believing all that God said throughout the bible for our instruction with that faith rooted and grounded in Christ.

Psalms 25:4 Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
Psalms 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.


It's interesting that in Psalm 25: David says, "the Lord will teach sinners in the way." And "shew me they ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths."

David followed the law of Moses, he acknowledges that God teaches sinners, and asks God to teach him. (Certainly doesn't look like self righteousness to me. As so many attribute to those who believe the entire word including the law.) Psalm 25:8-9

Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
 
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#85
Quite a few reasons.

1. Many (although they deny it) are preaching a works of the law based Gospel. And must be dealt with
2. many are claiming that the law is a means by which we can know how to do good, be morally correct people, Know the will of God, and live out our christian lives, Which we see in the OT people, they never worked. So why should we not try to remove and fight those who would attempt to try to place unders under the yoke of the law?
3. Many, (who preach law) condemn and argue and fight, even outright attack unfoundly those who do not believe one is made righteous (morrally or spiritually) by following the law. But by following the law of Christ (love)

and her-in is where the arguments and hate come in.

I have been around many people who preach law. And from what I see in them.

1. They are proud
2. They can be argumentnantive
3. they are very judgmental
4. They attack anyone who does not agree with them
5. They get to the point they make false accusations against people who do not agree with them
6. So on and so forth (I could continue for awhile)

The fact is. I can think of one person in this chat room of the top of my head who has not done any of the above. And he has not been around for awhile.

The fact is, preaching law brings about all kinds of phariseeism.. why would we want to do that to God, or his church?
When we try to answer this question from only scriptures point of view, I think we have to fit all scripture into the over all instruction to obey the law, to refrain from sin. The scriptures we must understand to fit into this basic instructions all fit into the idea of obeying without listening to Christ when He said "you have been told" and Christ told of a law. Christ then said "but I tell you". Then Christ told of a way to obey that law, but in spirit and truth.

Scripture talks of works of the law. It never says that the works are always wrong, but that works without the spirit amounts to nothing.

Scripture talks of the yoke of the law. If an atheist decided to live by the law of God, it would be a terrible yoke. His life would be improved by living by the instructions that come from God, but it wouldn't lead to the joy.

If the law was used as a measure to judge others and condemn them, it would be, scripturally a wrong use of the law. We are told to judge what is lawful and what isn't so we know sin when we see it practiced. The church organization is told to not let the practice of sin within it's structure, but even that is to be done with love.

Scripture talks of "dead in the law". Another way of saying this same thing is that sin kills.

Christ spoke against it when some of the Pharisees did law practice for wrong reasons, and told us not to be like them.

One of the main ways that people argue against the law is when they say that we must trust completely on the Holy Spirit and faith. This is scripture. But scripture never tells us not to listen to scripture, and scripture gives us what the HS leads us to.
 
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#86
Why in the world would you want to compare being under the law to the worshiping of idols? They are opposite of each other.
Because some people make the law their idol by exalting it above Christ?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#87
Because some people make the law their idol by exalting it above Christ?
Name some people (if you desire) who put God's law above God. Do you believe that some are making God's law an Idol? You don't have to answer that is you don't want to.
I look at it this way, if I may, I strive to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Just like Jesus quoted to Satan when He was tempted. GBU
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
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#88
Because some people make the law their idol by exalting it above Christ?
Let's make a example if you have a brother that was new in the Faith, and had much problems with his wife and lusted for her sister, would you not direct them that it is incorrect to think as so. And if he ask you how do you know that is incorrect, how would you correct him? If he ask for proof from the word, would you point out all the things in the new testament and old on this matter?

God bless
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#89
One of the main ways that people argue against the law is when they say that we must trust completely on the Holy Spirit and faith. This is scripture. But scripture never tells us not to listen to scripture, and scripture gives us what the HS leads us to.
Yes, Jesus is the Word John 1:1, and Jesus said He had to go away for His Father to send the Holy Spirit. So we remember what Jesus taught by Holy Spirit, and Jesus said nothing of Himself, but His witness was from the Father who gave the Law, and everything else in what we have today as the Bible.

In summary, the Spirit comes through he Word of God. The Word came first and gave us the Spirit. The Spirit didn't come first to give us the Word.
 
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#90
Because some people make the law their idol by exalting it above Christ?
You are making quite a judgment of people. I know people who respect the written law as part of scripture, they say so. I have never read or heard anyone say it is above the Lord. Have you really heard someone say or write this?

Perhaps you could assume that atheist say so who tell how righteous and good they are so they don't need Christ?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#91
When we try to answer this question from only scriptures point of view, I think we have to fit all scripture into the over all instruction to obey the law, to refrain from sin. The scriptures we must understand to fit into this basic instructions all fit into the idea of obeying without listening to Christ when He said "you have been told" and Christ told of a law. Christ then said "but I tell you". Then Christ told of a way to obey that law, but in spirit and truth.

I think we have to interpret the law correctly. Which I think is the problem.

Yes, the law can show us sin. But as I have shown it can not show us what God wants us to do. If people go around preaching law. They preach judgment, because that is all the law can do.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#92
Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead
Because some people make the law their idol by exalting it above Christ?
You are making quite a judgment of people. I know people who respect the written law as part of scripture, they say so. I have never read or heard anyone say it is above the Lord. Have you really heard someone say or write this?
They don't say it directly because they don't know they're doing it. But I see it in their words.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#93
Let's make a example if you have a brother that was new in the Faith, and had much problems with his wife and lusted for her sister, would you not direct them that it is incorrect to think as so. And if he ask you how do you know that is incorrect, how would you correct him? If he ask for proof from the word, would you point out all the things in the new testament and old on this matter?
The law of Moses, and the whole OT, is very useful for instruction and edification. Invaluable, IMO. So yes, I would use the whole bible to instruct someone.

However, the OT is only useful and meaningful as it pertains to exalting Christ. The moment we use the law to focus on anything other than the excellencies of Christ, it has become an idol, IMO.
 
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#94
Name some people (if you desire) who put God's law above God. Do you believe that some are making God's law an Idol? You don't have to answer that is you don't want to.
I look at it this way, if I may, I strive to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Just like Jesus quoted to Satan when He was tempted. GBU
Yes I do believe the law of Moses is an idol to some people.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#95
Forgive the length, but PLEASE CONSIDER THE WHOLE POST!

I think the law causes contention among Christians because - like a few have said - the relationship is not properly understood between the law, the Holy Spirit, Grace, and Christ. I also read words like "Pharaseeism" and "Legalism" for a supporter of the law...so I think it's important to understand what the Pharisees actually represented. Because if we miss this we (kind of) miss the whole point of the contention between Christ and the Pharisees, and we misread the context of scenes like Acts 15:5-10 (note: The Pharisees stood up with this demand for fleshy circumcision).

{by the way, my CAPS are simply to make strong emphasis; to drive the points I’m making home for all readers}

---

The Pharisees were NOT...NOT...NOT "strict observers [or even normal observers] of the law of God".

If the opposite of the above statement is established as our 'baseline understanding' (that the Pharisees were "the keepers of God’s law"), then it becomes necessary (when we consider the problems Christ had with them) to assume that somehow there’s something wrong with God’s law (as in either it's not sufficient or it's old, etc.). The minds begins to try to justify why Christ could ever have a problem with these men if these men were the law's advocates and leader of a religion that Christ was born under.

But this was NOT Christ’s contention with the Pharisees, nor was the Pharisees’ "beef" with Christ "him breaking God’s Law"...even though that’s what they’d often suggested/accused him of. We have to rewind because - like Christ said - on the wrong foundation a house can not stand.

----

In a masterful switch, the spirit of deception has misled us by swapping both parties’ stances, because the truth is:

(a) Christ is actually the “STRICT keeper of God’s law”, while...
(b) The Pharisees are actually the ones breaking God’s law at every turn.


Christ is the one who was perfectly sinless, not the Pharisees. Sin isn't defined as some moral/spiritual corruption. Sin is (the act of) "breaking the law of God"...and Christ DID NOT DO THAT. This fact alone proves that He alone is the “STRICT observer of God’s law”; so isn't he the "Legalistic" one by definition? Unfortunately, you may reject this label because it carries a negative connotation since it's presumed to challenge grace...but it's no less true. Christ alone is the keeper of the law. The High Priest ordained by God (not by man). And he never...EVER broke God's law or taught anyone to break it.

However, The Pharisees were NOT observers of the law, but sinners (remember sin = breaking the law). For instance, the Pharisees brought the adulterous woman to Christ for judgment but *they* were guilty of sin so they left never stoning her ("he who’s without sin cast the first stone"). The Pharisees were "anything but" keepers of the law. They did NOT follow the law, but followed THEIR OWN man-made rules & regulations CONTRARY to God's law.


**The Prushim**

The Hebrew name of the Pharisees was Prushim meaning "separated ones"...but it begs the question "separate from whom?" And *how* did they separate themselves? Well to answer this one must recall the law of God as it pertains to the Temple:

When anyone intended to make a sacrifice in the Temple of God, they were required to enter into a state of purity; because no one can EVER approach Father Yah presumptuously (much can be preached against this generation from this fact alone, but I digress). If a person wanted to enter the temple they had to 1) confess their sins, 2) baptize themselves, and 3) change their clothes...every time. Only then was a person “holy” to enter the temple.

Once in there, portions of the animal sacrifice were designated to God, to the priest and to the bringer of the sacrifice to eat (respectively), and it would be considered “sanctified meat”.

The Prushim, in their desire live in a perpetual state of purity (separated from lay-folk), self-righteously established THEIR OWN system of maintaining their holiness where they made hundreds of rules to govern things like:

- What constituted “forbidden work” on Sabbath
- How far one could walk on the Sabbath
- How to wash when one eats regular meals
- The type of utensils one could use, etc.

The Prushim/Pharisees then said these rules are "TAKANOT" (translated in the bible as “traditions” but ACTUALLY means “laws enacted by the rabbis which change or negate the Law of God, said to carry the same weight of authority as the law given by God himself through Moses”). They claimed their Takanot was the “secondary fence” around the law so if people followed their rules they wouldn't break the law of God. They also said when they enact a new Takanot even God himself must obey the verdict, and that only through their Takanot can one properly understand the scriptures of Torah (sound familiar??). Eventually, these laws became known as "Oral Torah" which was later codified into The Talmud...but this was after the destruction of the Temple.

In Christ's day the Pharisees/Prushim controlled the Sanhedrin (the governing body) so EVERYONE was required to follow the Takanot of the Pharisees or they would be accused as if they broke God's Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) and then punished...so mostly everyone was under the bondage of this government-religious system. The Prushim/Pharisees taught that one can be forgiven for breaking a commandment but one would NEVER be forgiven if they broke Takanot. But Christ came to set people free from this bondage.


Takanot that Christ willfully broke (where Pharisees accused him of breaking God's law as a result):

- Using ritual cleansing water pots for wedding wine
- Making mud on the Sabbath
- Putting saliva on eyes on the Sabbath
- Walking further than a “Sabbath’s day’s journey” on Sabbath
- Picking up a mat outside on Sabbath (without making boundaries of one’s home outside called "law of the eruv")
- Healing on Sabbath
- Picking grain to eat on Sabbath (when there’s actually a provision ALLOWING this in the Law)
- Not ritually washing hands before eating bread
- Not reading at least three verses when reading from scripture in the synagogue (Christ stopped reading Isaiah 61:1-2 before finishing verse 2)
- Preaching without going through their schools to become a "licensed" priest
- Preaching against any Takanot

NONE of these rules are found in God's law, but actively following ANY of them breaks God's law (making Pharisees and their obedient lay people sinners) because "No one is allowed to ADD TO or SUBTRACT FROM the law of God". Yet the Pharisees accused Christ of breaking God's laws (and being a sinner) when he taught the law of God over their rules. :confused:

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
The "Separated Ones" (Prushim/Pharisees) rejected Christ as "The Prophet" that was to come because they were so convinced he was a sinner because Christ regularly broke their rules, which in their minds was God's Law by their authority. Also, being a supposed child of Joseph out of wed-lock (a "child of fornication") who lives in the Galilee (area of gentiles), Christ was assumed by them as "illegitimate" to that prophecy. And this "illegitimate" prophet was teaching EVERYONE to also break the Takanot of the Pharisees, emptying synagogues by droves.

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time comes, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service.
But Christ WAS the prophet to come, coming to correct people's misunderstandings.

Deuteronomy 18:18-20
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."
Deuteronomy 13
[a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
And he never came speaking contrary to God's law.

Christ then said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
So Christ practice "legalism" (strict obedience to God's law) while the Pharisees practiced "phariseeism". The Messiah said his yolk is easy by comparison to the Prushim's yolk who put burdens on people too heavy to bear. This is the context of what Peter says against the Pharisee's demand in Acts 15:10:

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
 
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#96
So Christ practice "legalism" (strict obedience to God's law) while the Pharisees practiced "phariseeism". The Messiah said his yolk is easy by comparison to the Prushim's yolk who put burdens on people too heavy to bear. This is the context of what Peter says against the Pharisee's demand in Acts 15:10:
That's really not the context at all. The context was that some Judeans were claiming that circumcision (a commandment in the law of Moses) and keeping the law of Moses were required of all believers in order for them to be saved. That's not phariseeism; that's legalism.

Christ didn't come to teach us how to follow laws. He came to teach us how to walk justly in the holy spirit. That is accomplished through faith, and only through faith. Faith is the antithesis of law-keeping.

Faith is confidence and trust in GOD that he will accomplish our salvation; whereas faith in works of law is confidence and trust that GOD will accept us based on what we do. Works of law are the manifestation of the absence of faith.

Faith says, 'Look what you've done, GOD'. Works of law says, 'Look what I've done, GOD.'
 
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#97
HeRoseFromTheDead and Eternally-Grateful, I don't understand how your arguments against law can stand up scripturally. You say that the law becomes an idol, you see people doing it even though they don't realize they are doing it.

They are listening to God in order to know law, it would be impossible to listen to God without hearing God's word about the need for forgiveness. Yet, you say you know their mind and heart better than they do?

You say the law is only to be used to explain Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that a teaching is "only". A teaching is a teaching, all is to be listened to.

You say that when scripture gives law it is preaching judgment? One of the laws is to rest on the Sabbath. It does not say I judge you, rest on the Sabbath. How could teaching a law teach to judge? Scripture tells us not to judge. Scripture teaches to rest on the Sabbath. Not related.

You have good points: listen to all of scripture and don't make the law the whole of scripture. Also, that forgiveness of sin, grace, and love is the heart and soul of scripture. I just can't believe these things can be used to argue against law.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#98
HeRoseFromTheDead and Eternally-Grateful, I don't understand how your arguments against law can stand up scripturally. You say that the law becomes an idol, you see people doing it even though they don't realize they are doing it.

They are listening to God in order to know law, it would be impossible to listen to God without hearing God's word about the need for forgiveness. Yet, you say you know their mind and heart better than they do?

You say the law is only to be used to explain Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that a teaching is "only". A teaching is a teaching, all is to be listened to.

You say that when scripture gives law it is preaching judgment? One of the laws is to rest on the Sabbath. It does not say I judge you, rest on the Sabbath. How could teaching a law teach to judge? Scripture tells us not to judge. Scripture teaches to rest on the Sabbath. Not related.

You have good points: listen to all of scripture and don't make the law the whole of scripture. Also, that forgiveness of sin, grace, and love is the heart and soul of scripture. I just can't believe these things can be used to argue against law.
It is one thing to preach law

it is another to preach law will show us how to do the will of God. Which is not true.

People teaching law (as we see in here) teach judgment, They are putting people under a yoke they can not handle. And keeping them from doing the thing God really wants them to do.

I teach law myself. Not to show people how to be righteous. But to show how inadequite we are to follow it. To show how much of a failure everyone who has every tried to live by it in doing Gods will.
 
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#99
Faith says, 'Look what you've done, GOD'. Works of law says, 'Look what I've done, GOD.'

In process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD ['Look what I've done through my efforts, GOD']. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof ['I look to what you'll do through your son, GOD']. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Genesis 4:3-5​
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead and Eternally-Grateful, I don't understand how your arguments against law can stand up scripturally. You say that the law becomes an idol, you see people doing it even though they don't realize they are doing it.

They are listening to God in order to know law, it would be impossible to listen to God without hearing God's word about the need for forgiveness. Yet, you say you know their mind and heart better than they do?

You say the law is only to be used to explain Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that a teaching is "only". A teaching is a teaching, all is to be listened to.

You say that when scripture gives law it is preaching judgment? One of the laws is to rest on the Sabbath. It does not say I judge you, rest on the Sabbath. How could teaching a law teach to judge? Scripture tells us not to judge. Scripture teaches to rest on the Sabbath. Not related.

You have good points: listen to all of scripture and don't make the law the whole of scripture. Also, that forgiveness of sin, grace, and love is the heart and soul of scripture. I just can't believe these things can be used to argue against law.
I think the problem I'm beginning to see is the belief that law of Moses is merely meant as instruction. That's part of what the law is, but more importantly the commandments are mandates that demand one's death, or that one be cursed, if they are disobeyed. For some reason this aspect of the law of Moses is being ignored, and the spiritual realities of Christ's commandments that he spoke while on earth and through his apostles are being transferred to what is called the moral law of the law of Moses. It really is turning everything upside down.