Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[Married_Richenbrachen]

The phrase you used originally to express the thought also expressed in your revision of the question isn't the problem in itself. The problem is that this same thought (obtain salvation by works/yoking themselves under even some of the Mosaic law) is being concluded with no basis for it. When I, and others, post that we revere (wait - let's try a different word - "respect") the entire Bible including the law, as given by God and valuable for teaching and is NOT saying "I want to be obligated to live by the Old Testament laws so I can earn my salvation by doing the works of the law." But I have said that over and over and either I have a poor command of the English language and can't write what I think plainly (not a problem I have ever had, even when writing a weekly newspaper column), or certain individuals just love to annoy -- but that wouldn't happen in here because we are all Christians and we do as the Bible says, as far as being kind and not causing contention -- so, I wonder what the problem is...

All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living;
2 Timothy 3:16 (CJB)

and for those who don't like the CJB:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; 2 Timothy 3:16 (NAS)

You seem to communicate fine to me... But like HeRoseFromTheDead says, he too loves the Old Testament and studying it - this is obviously not a sin. But there is a difference between studying the Old Testament, and trying to follow even some of the observances for the sake of following them (becoming yoked under the law).

The old covenant has been fulfilled in Christ, and our new covenant is through His blood.

From your previous post, it sounds as though we agree, unless you are following Mosaic laws or something.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To me it makes sense to study Jesus' words in the context of the lifestyle of the people who lived at the time He walked the earth, since that was the era when the New Testament books were written.

Then you need to study about the Targums - Targum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The targumim (singular: "targum", Hebrew: תרגום‎), were spoken paraphrases, explanations, and expansions of the Jewish scriptures that a Rabbi would give in the common language of the listeners, which during the time of this practice was commonly, but not exclusively, Aramaic. This had become necessary near the end of the last century before the Christian era, as the common language was in transition and Hebrew was used for little more than schooling and worship.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I refuse to have a battle of wits with anyone who has no ammunition.

Let's get back to where this contention always get started. This little issue seems to have started way back at post #251 which was a comment made to a post not even directed toward the poster, then it grew, and grew, and grew, and blew up into a stinking mess that clearly illustrates how the contention over the law starts and gets sidetracked. Even the question I posed at the end of post #252, has not been answered and probably won't be.

Yet you ignored my question in post #253 for clarity if you think that works of law please GOD.

 

[just-us-2]

scuse my ignorance.....but what Bible is the CJB......Canadian Jewish Bible?

Was not Timothy referring to The Torah?..

The CJB is Complete Jewish Bible. It is a valuable resource for study because it sheds light on scripture that we can't find elsewhere these days. One thing I happened onto a day or two ago is Isaiah 45:11 as it reads in the CJB says, "Thus says ADONAI, the Holy One of Isra'el, his Maker: "You ask for signs concerning my children? You give orders concerning the work of my hands?" In the KJV it reads, "Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker , Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me." which totally reverses the message given. I was working on a thread about prayer and boldness when I stumbled onto this.
In Hebrew there are idioms were as 21st century Americans are unaware of and this translation helps clear up some of that. It is our duty to study to understand as much as possible.

 

[Praus]

scuse my ignorance.....but what Bible is the CJB......Canadian Jewish Bible?

It's on Bible Gateway.

link -> Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

Publisher: Messianic Jewish Publishers
Testaments: OT/NT
Version Information: Complete Jewish Bible / A New Translation / Dr. David Stern

Presenting the Word of God as a unified Jewish book, the Complete Jewish Bible is a translation for Jews and non-Jews alike. It connects Jews with the Jewishness of the Messiah, and non-Jews with their Jewish roots. Names and key terms are returned to their original Hebrew and presented in easy-to-understand transliterations, enabling the reader to say them the way Yeshua (Jesus) did!

They forgot to mention the Abrahamic roots for some reason.

 

[JaumeJ]

Something quite extraordinary that all the experts seem to overlook. We are taught by Paul to resist temptation. Satan tempts all to sin. Now, if sin is breaking the law, resisting temptation is obeying the law.

Those who do not understand this, please, before telling those who do what is correct in the sight of Yeshua not to obey the commandments, get a grip on just what resisting temptation is.

If you still do not understand that the commandments on good and moral behavior will always be there to exercise, I am afraid come the Kingdom you are going to be in for an enormous surprise.

OK, I will not say obey the commandments, but you must resist temptation. You cannot do this without obeying the commandments. Go ahead, say Paul is wrong. Say resisting temptation is not being obedient to Yahweh, but I tell you that is a lie, and we know who the Father of lies is. Stop listening to the enemy, listen to Yeshua, please.

 

[just-us-2]

You seem to communicate fine to me... But like HeRoseFromTheDead says, he too loves the Old Testament and studying it - this is obviously not a sin. But there is a difference between studying the Old Testament, and trying to follow even some of the observances for the sake of following them (becoming yoked under the law).

The old covenant has been fulfilled in Christ, and our new covenant is through His blood.

From your previous post, it sounds as though we agree, unless you are following Mosaic laws or something.

No, not following Mosaic laws for salvation.
Thank you for reading what I really wrote. I appreciate that!

 

[just-us-2]

No, not following Mosaic laws for salvation.
Thank you for reading what I really wrote. I appreciate that!

Actually, I should amend that statement to say that we follow the gardening advice given in the Old Testament because we have tried it and it it is VERY beneficial.

 

[just-us-2]

GBU sister, I think it's a sign that I should have a discerning peek at the CJB, that's good fruit. I'm curious what's different from the extremely solid JPS 1917 translation.

I have no idea - the CJB is my first venture into such reading material.

I think a tangled web is a much better metaphor.

I agree.

Have you ever read this, teacher?

Women's Purpose <- link
"We can teach other women and children but a teacher is an authority over the students, therefore we cannot teach men and be in God’s perfect will."

I sure have. I made no attempt to usurp authority over any man, but I'll be darned if I will sit by and let an innocent party be replied to so unkindly - in this case "Least" - and not come to her defense, and I can't help it if it turned out that some man/men learned something from what I said. Furthermore, I had a serious confrontation over a woman's place and purpose with another female. It was horrendous, but unfortunately in the women's forum so you can't read it.
And secondly, I don't see very many men, some but not many, teaching anything I can trust as untarnished truth as corroborated by God's Word itself. Since you brought up the subject, do you have anything to teach me that fits the criteria?

 

[just-me]

Yet you ignored my question in post #253 for clarity if you think that works of law please GOD.

Probably because she has you on her ignore list.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Probably because she has you on her ignore list.

Why don't you answer the question for me then?

 

[just-me]

Why don't you answer the question for me then?

I had to click "view post" to see what you wrote because I also have you on my ignore list.

 

[just-me]

Do works of law please GOD?

You aren't going to like my answer. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Your question is dead because it is unlearned, and leads to contention. Are you a lawyer? Do I hear an AMEN BROTHER?!

Also, what sense does it make that once the law has led one to Christ, for that person to revert back to the law for instruction on how to get to Christ? Christ is the end and the goal of the law.

If you don't you have any intelligent instructions from the Mosaic law, how are you able to lead others to Christ as you were led. Or did you just buy the concept of "all have sinned and come short" without proof? Now I will ask you a question. Do you make up your own rules to die daily without reason, because you don't consider the law of God anymore? No sacrifice, no cross, no presentation, no reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

So then, the law became our guardian until Christ, in order that we could be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, Galatians 3:24-26

Now that you have faith you are legitimate to chuck the works thing. Your choice, not mine.

 

[Praus]

I have no idea - the CJB is my first venture into such reading material.

Then how do you have any basis to judge the translation?

I sure have. I made no attempt to usurp authority over any man, but I'll be darned if I will sit by and let an innocent party be replied to so unkindly - in this case "Least" - and not come to her defense, and I can't help it if it turned out that some man/men learned something from what I said.

That sounds doesn't like you trust God very much.

Furthermore, I had a serious confrontation over a woman's place and purpose with another female. It was horrendous, but unfortunately in the women's forum so you can't read it.

That's one reason women teachers are bad, because it's quite fortunate that I can't read anything in the "the women's forum". There isn't enough eye-bleach in the world...

And secondly, I don't see very many men, some but not many, teaching anything I can trust as untarnished truth as corroborated by God's Word itself.

God's word itself tells you to trust God, not yourself, how are you doing on that?

Ps 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Since you brought up the subject, do you have anything to teach me that fits the criteria?

The CJB is a "unified Jewish book" per the publisher.

 

[just-us-2]

Then how do you have any basis to judge the translation?



That sounds doesn't like you trust God very much.



That's one reason women teachers are bad, because it's quite fortunate that I can't read anything in the "the women's forum". There isn't enough eye-bleach in the world...



God's word itself tells you to trust God, not yourself, how are you doing on that?

Ps 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.




The CJB is a "unified Jewish book" per the publisher.

It is obvious that you did not beseech the Lord before replying to me so, guess what - you have just joined my 'ignore list' because I have better things to do than contend with an arrogant, self-righteous man...or woman for that matter. You might try conversing with my husband (just-me). He is more patient than I am with the likes of you. He just told me to let you know that the only way to compare translations of the Word is to compare scripture with itself for yourself, not man's opinion.
So he and I agree that what man says without scriptural backup is worthless. But like I said, he's more patient than I am.

 

[notuptome]

Grace that saves does not negate the law. Grace that saves negates the penalty of sin which comes through the law. The law is perfect but men are not. Keeping the law such as it is does not make a man perfect in God's eyes. God's grace makes men perfect in God's eyes. Were it not for the obstinate heart of men this would be clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Praus]

It is obvious that you did not beseech the Lord before replying to me so, guess what - you have just joined my 'ignore list'

That's scriptural.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

because I have better things to do than contend with an arrogant, self-righteous man...or woman for that matter.

It doesn't matter if you put me on ignore, I'm going to continue to reply to your posts. I think this is a very good demonstration of how Christians take the Apostle Paul's teaching seriously.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

You might try conversing with my husband (just-me). He is more patient than I am with the likes of you. He just told me to let you know that the only way to compare translations of the Word is to compare scripture with itself for yourself, not man's opinion.

That means comparing it to the Greek NT which you already advised us is actually Hebrew.

So he and I agree that what man says without scriptural backup is worthless. But like I said, he's more patient than I am.

I gave you a couple verses from 2 Tim 4, but it seems that you have the Apostle Paul on your "ignore list" as well.

 

[just-me]

For several months now, I have shared my heart with all, saying that I revere the Mosaic law. I love it actually. It's our Creators word. I have said that Jesus was the creator of all things, and that He was before the beginning of time. I have actually said that He was present when His Father gave the law to Moses. I have been told that I was in a cult for believing that. I have had attack after attack, telling me I was wrong to believe as I do. I have also been told that I am a Judaizer, and a legalizer, with adverse, and condemning remarks, going so far as to say I desire to be under the law. I am condemned more for that than the Law itself. So I have searched to find my name on the cult list, and am still trying to find my name, but it hasn't shown up yet. I have asked those who deride me to lead me to Christ, and have had no offers. For sure, because of my self-righteousness, and being condemned by the law, I desire to be under it. I surely desire others to be condemned by it because of my admiration for it, and now I am going straight to hell. Is there anyone who even cares? Please help, for I am obviously condemned by God for trusting in all that He said. As I understand it, Paul wanted all the Judaizers, and legalizers to come to Christ, but I don't see anybody in CC that has the heart that Paul did.

 

[JaumeJ]

There just may not be any help for you or for me in the eyes of these people who speak for Yahweh. I do believe if we resist temptation from the enemy this would be considered works by these very well informed ones because resisting the enemy amounts to not sinning and sin finds its power in the law, so resisting will be taken as my obeying the LAW. This is a dilema..

For several months now, I have shared my heart with all, saying that I revere the Mosaic law. I love it actually. It's our Creators word. I have said that Jesus was the creator of all things, and that He was before the beginning of time. I have actually said that He was present when His Father gave the law to Moses. I have been told that I was in a cult for believing that. I have had attack after attack, telling me I was wrong to believe as I do. I have also been told that I am a Judaizer, and a legalizer, with adverse, and condemning remarks, going so far as to say I desire to be under the law. I am condemned more for that than the Law itself. So I have searched to find my name on the cult list, and am still trying to find my name, but it hasn't shown up yet. I have asked those who deride me to lead me to Christ, and have had no offers. For sure, because of my self-righteousness, and being condemned by the law, I desire to be under it. I surely desire others to be condemned by it because of my admiration for it, and now I am going straight to hell. Is there anyone who even cares? Please help, for I am obviously condemned by God for trusting in all that He said. As I understand it, Paul wanted all the Judaizers, and legalizers to come to Christ, but I don't see anybody in CC that has the heart that Paul did.

Something quite extraordinary that all the experts seem to overlook. We are taught by Paul to resist temptation. Satan tempts all to sin. Now, if sin is breaking the law, resisting temptation is obeying the law.

Those who do not understand this, please, before telling those who do what is correct in the sight of Yeshua not to obey the commandments, get a grip on just what resisting temptation is.

If you still do not understand that the commandments on good and moral behavior will always be there to exercise, I am afraid come the Kingdom you are going to be in for an enormous surprise.

OK, I will not say obey the commandments, but you must resist temptation. You cannot do this without obeying the commandments. Go ahead, say Paul is wrong. Say resisting temptation is not being obedient to Yahweh, but I tell you that is a lie, and we know who the Father of lies is. Stop listening to the enemy, listen to Yeshua, please.

 

[Selihah]

Paul seems to be quoted a great deal here. But I was wondering what you all thought about Paul and Jesus answer to basically the same question 'What must I do to be saved?" Because each give quite remarkably different answers. Paul in Acts 16:30-31 answers believe on the lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house. However Jesus in Matthew 19:16-19; Mark 10:17-19; and Luke 18:19-20; answered the inquirer by saying obedience to the laws of Moses, in order to obtain salvation.