The Original Pentecostal Movement
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T
that was a good thing, i'd agree with that
but then this' from the same source:
"When Mr. Parham came to visit his former student’s revival in October 1906, he was dismayed to find scenes of ecstatic praying and frenzied dancing. A Ku Klux Klan sympathizer, he was particularly displeased by the mixing of the races at services that he derided as "Southern darky camp meetings."
The two men dissociated, and not long after the revival ended the Pentecostals split along racial lines into two major denominations, one black, the Church of God in Christ, and one white, the Assemblies of God, with which the Tabernacle in Atlanta affiliated in the 1940's. The Pentecostal faith spread like fire, most rapidly in the deeply segregated South, but white Southerners were far from ready to embrace the multiracial ethic of Azusa Street.
With few theological distinctions, the two denominations and other Pentecostal groups thrived independently through much of the 20th century. While the Assemblies of God placed a heavy emphasis on missionary work overseas, including in Africa, it remained almost thoroughly segregated at home..."
....
but, i would want some confirmation on all that though.
it seems there are different versions of the same beginnings.
i wonder if the Original Pentecostal Movement goes back even further than this, though?
Stephen, is Azusa Street the beginning of the Original Pentecostal Movement?
was hoping you could just set the starting point; list some defining features and post some links and whatnot.
k. ttyl
but then this' from the same source:
"When Mr. Parham came to visit his former student’s revival in October 1906, he was dismayed to find scenes of ecstatic praying and frenzied dancing. A Ku Klux Klan sympathizer, he was particularly displeased by the mixing of the races at services that he derided as "Southern darky camp meetings."
The two men dissociated, and not long after the revival ended the Pentecostals split along racial lines into two major denominations, one black, the Church of God in Christ, and one white, the Assemblies of God, with which the Tabernacle in Atlanta affiliated in the 1940's. The Pentecostal faith spread like fire, most rapidly in the deeply segregated South, but white Southerners were far from ready to embrace the multiracial ethic of Azusa Street.
With few theological distinctions, the two denominations and other Pentecostal groups thrived independently through much of the 20th century. While the Assemblies of God placed a heavy emphasis on missionary work overseas, including in Africa, it remained almost thoroughly segregated at home..."
....
but, i would want some confirmation on all that though.
it seems there are different versions of the same beginnings.
i wonder if the Original Pentecostal Movement goes back even further than this, though?
Stephen, is Azusa Street the beginning of the Original Pentecostal Movement?
was hoping you could just set the starting point; list some defining features and post some links and whatnot.
k. ttyl
check out this valuable link for this incredible revelation:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202&version=KJV
T
Once again check out this link it is an online book we call the BIBLE, it might open your eyes to know that Pentecostalism started in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, with the 12 disciples, and in Jerusalem
If you are unwilling to concede your pride any on this, it proves what I already know, your motives are glaring.
you asked for the History of Pentecostalism, I am giving it to you, but its going on deaf ears and blind eyes, because all you are wanting is to dig out the fruits and nuts to back up your own skim milk understanding of Pentecost Theology, so you can stay convinced that your theology and fire insurance are secure.
Please read these in order.
Joel 2 KJV - Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound - Bible Gateway
Acts 2 KJV - And when the day of Pentecost was fully - Bible Gateway
If you are unwilling to concede your pride any on this, it proves what I already know, your motives are glaring.
you asked for the History of Pentecostalism, I am giving it to you, but its going on deaf ears and blind eyes, because all you are wanting is to dig out the fruits and nuts to back up your own skim milk understanding of Pentecost Theology, so you can stay convinced that your theology and fire insurance are secure.
Please read these in order.
Joel 2 KJV - Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound - Bible Gateway
Acts 2 KJV - And when the day of Pentecost was fully - Bible Gateway
Hey I like that Bible Gateway you may like to read this from the Bible Hub and check it out in the original text and the meaning:
1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
re: (post #22).
i didn't ask about the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the power from on High Christ's eye-witnesses received (Acts 1:5; 1:8; 1:22; Luke 24:48; John 15:27; etc). i am familiar with that.
this thread is about The Original Pentecostal Movement (specifically mentioned by another member, whose opinion i'm primarily interested in, since he knows the subject under review).
but i'll consider and retain this portion of your post:
Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy. The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits.
the remainder is off topic.
...
Stephen:
Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy. The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits.
is this poster's assessment of initial internal disagreements accurate?
my question to you (Stephen) would be why would there be these internal disagreements? the gifts and so on had been recovered/restarted and needed to be understood again? < though this is a side issue. more related to cessationism vs continuationism and might be outside the scope of this thread.
zone.
i didn't ask about the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the power from on High Christ's eye-witnesses received (Acts 1:5; 1:8; 1:22; Luke 24:48; John 15:27; etc). i am familiar with that.
this thread is about The Original Pentecostal Movement (specifically mentioned by another member, whose opinion i'm primarily interested in, since he knows the subject under review).
but i'll consider and retain this portion of your post:
Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy. The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits.
the remainder is off topic.
...
Stephen:
Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy. The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits.
is this poster's assessment of initial internal disagreements accurate?
my question to you (Stephen) would be why would there be these internal disagreements? the gifts and so on had been recovered/restarted and needed to be understood again? < though this is a side issue. more related to cessationism vs continuationism and might be outside the scope of this thread.
zone.
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UncleFester didn't start this thread, i did.
...
if the Original Pentecostal Movement (the subject of this thread) is a continuation of the Day of Pentecost, what happened within Pentecostalism (or any denomination) that caused the internal disagreements you mentioned in post 22?:
"Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy.
The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits."
internal disagreements of that magnitude indicate very serious and major issues with Theology & Soteriology, not to mention practices (and the beliefs they are based on).
if you don't use the quote feature i won't be responding to your posts.
...
if the Original Pentecostal Movement (the subject of this thread) is a continuation of the Day of Pentecost, what happened within Pentecostalism (or any denomination) that caused the internal disagreements you mentioned in post 22?:
"Still going strong and in fact its gaining steam among many protestant denominations, that once called it heresy.
The internal disagreements had a lot do to with the doctrine of the trinity, the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, including speaking in tongues, the operation of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost, the 5 fold ministry gifts, the Romans 12 motive gifts and the impartation of anointing through the laying on of hands, and the casting out of devils and evil spirits."
internal disagreements of that magnitude indicate very serious and major issues with Theology & Soteriology, not to mention practices (and the beliefs they are based on).
if you don't use the quote feature i won't be responding to your posts.
we heathens?
again, the Day of Pentecost is not the subject of this thread.
AN outpouring, suggests that you believe there has been more than one Day of Pentecost.....or that there are many "outpourings" (for the last 100 years or so?) like the Day of Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit was poured out at Jerusalem (Jews, to whom the Promise went first)....
then we know some time afterward Peter received the vision of the unclean animals and the gentiles were included in the blessing:
Acts 10
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(we also notice that the tongues were for a sign...to the circumcision)
.....
so, i am assuming you are suggesting Azusa was AN (as in another) "outpouring"; like the Day of Pentecost, and like the events of Acts 10 concerning the gentiles.
i'm trying to document the "outpourings" like Azusa...back in time to the ones which are documented in history, be it Pentecostal history or other.
i was also hoping to see where the bible predicts The Original Pentecostal Movement (mentioned by Stephen)...which i am still hoping to hear defined by him.
again, the Day of Pentecost is not the subject of this thread.
AN outpouring, suggests that you believe there has been more than one Day of Pentecost.....or that there are many "outpourings" (for the last 100 years or so?) like the Day of Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit was poured out at Jerusalem (Jews, to whom the Promise went first)....
then we know some time afterward Peter received the vision of the unclean animals and the gentiles were included in the blessing:
Acts 10
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(we also notice that the tongues were for a sign...to the circumcision)
.....
so, i am assuming you are suggesting Azusa was AN (as in another) "outpouring"; like the Day of Pentecost, and like the events of Acts 10 concerning the gentiles.
i'm trying to document the "outpourings" like Azusa...back in time to the ones which are documented in history, be it Pentecostal history or other.
i was also hoping to see where the bible predicts The Original Pentecostal Movement (mentioned by Stephen)...which i am still hoping to hear defined by him.
meanwhile: from Still's source: Pentecostalism
...
Pentecostalism
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
Demographics
In the United States, there are approximately 12.3 million Pentecostals and Neo-Pentecostals in 24 different denominations or associations. This number does not include the millions of members within mainline denominations, often called “Neo-Pentecostals” or “charismatics,” i.e., who hold to the chief teaching of Pentecostalism: Baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.
....
i'm wondering if this is/was the chief teaching of The Original Pentecostal Movement.
...
Origin/History
Pentecostal historians usually date the beginning of Pentecostalism to the experience of two key figures at the turn of the Twentieth Century. Charles Fox Parnham (1873-1929), the founder of Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, became convinced from his study of Paul’s letters that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (especially the speaking in tongues) were available to Christians of his day also. The first incident of such tongues-speaking happened at Bethel Bible in 1901. In April, 1906, one of Parnham’s former students, W. J. Seymour, who was preaching in Los Angeles became a catalyst for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. As he was preaching at a Methodist Church on Azusa Street on the need for every Christian to have a personal Pentecost experience (as it happened to the 120 believers in Acts 2:1-4), many in attendance were baptized in the Holy Spirit, which was evidenced in some by the speaking of tongues, and others by miraculous healings. The revival and the outpouring of the Spirit lasted for three months. Word quickly spread, and thousands traveled to Los Angeles, many of whom were also allegedly baptized in the Holy Spirit. These then gladly took the Pentecostal message and experience back to their homes. By 1909 there were 12 Pentecostal preaching stations in Los Angles. Within a generation the Pentecostal movement had spread all over America and was a new force in Christendom.
...
do Pentecostal historians usually date the beginning of Pentecostalism to the experiences of Bethel Bible in 1901, and Azusa Street in 1906?
...
Pentecostalism
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
Demographics
In the United States, there are approximately 12.3 million Pentecostals and Neo-Pentecostals in 24 different denominations or associations. This number does not include the millions of members within mainline denominations, often called “Neo-Pentecostals” or “charismatics,” i.e., who hold to the chief teaching of Pentecostalism: Baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.
....
i'm wondering if this is/was the chief teaching of The Original Pentecostal Movement.
...
Origin/History
Pentecostal historians usually date the beginning of Pentecostalism to the experience of two key figures at the turn of the Twentieth Century. Charles Fox Parnham (1873-1929), the founder of Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, became convinced from his study of Paul’s letters that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (especially the speaking in tongues) were available to Christians of his day also. The first incident of such tongues-speaking happened at Bethel Bible in 1901. In April, 1906, one of Parnham’s former students, W. J. Seymour, who was preaching in Los Angeles became a catalyst for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. As he was preaching at a Methodist Church on Azusa Street on the need for every Christian to have a personal Pentecost experience (as it happened to the 120 believers in Acts 2:1-4), many in attendance were baptized in the Holy Spirit, which was evidenced in some by the speaking of tongues, and others by miraculous healings. The revival and the outpouring of the Spirit lasted for three months. Word quickly spread, and thousands traveled to Los Angeles, many of whom were also allegedly baptized in the Holy Spirit. These then gladly took the Pentecostal message and experience back to their homes. By 1909 there were 12 Pentecostal preaching stations in Los Angles. Within a generation the Pentecostal movement had spread all over America and was a new force in Christendom.
...
do Pentecostal historians usually date the beginning of Pentecostalism to the experiences of Bethel Bible in 1901, and Azusa Street in 1906?
U
Speaking of fruits and nuts highwayman, under which would you categorize the following ? And highwayman ... pride is both the culprit and the end result of those pretending. No true believer in Christ's gospel would ever deny nor contest the happenings on the Day of Pentecost. God's fulfillment of Joel's prophecy ... "[TABLE="width: 646"]
[TR]
[TD]“This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
But todays junk as in the video below ... and many more similar being attributed to God's Holy Spirit ? God is not mocked. And He is not pleased. It is you and others likeminded whose eyes will be opened. And you will not like what you see.
Kenneth E. Hagin - Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter - YouTube
[TR]
[TD]“This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
But todays junk as in the video below ... and many more similar being attributed to God's Holy Spirit ? God is not mocked. And He is not pleased. It is you and others likeminded whose eyes will be opened. And you will not like what you see.
Kenneth E. Hagin - Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter - YouTube
C
For those who are interested in finding out more about what the Pentecostal Church (Christian Assemblies International) believe about the Holy Spirit, here is a link:
The Holy Spirit | Christian Assemblies International
This link is for educational purposes only (not pushing one Christian sect above another).
Zone, if I have derailed any at all, sorry. My intent is to show everyone the main concept of Pentecostalism. Namely, the Holy Spirit led life as it was evident with the wondering Hebrews.
I do agree with you in some aspect. Some have been led astray by howling wolves of laughter, as if God will have you acting like animals. But, as with all good intents, Satan tries, and with some success, to make a mockery of it with his own plan. This mockery is even evident in his twisting of God's Salvational plan, by offering up his own christ (deliverer from God) and salvation (from God).
Again, sorry for any derailment.
The Holy Spirit | Christian Assemblies International
This link is for educational purposes only (not pushing one Christian sect above another).
Zone, if I have derailed any at all, sorry. My intent is to show everyone the main concept of Pentecostalism. Namely, the Holy Spirit led life as it was evident with the wondering Hebrews.
I do agree with you in some aspect. Some have been led astray by howling wolves of laughter, as if God will have you acting like animals. But, as with all good intents, Satan tries, and with some success, to make a mockery of it with his own plan. This mockery is even evident in his twisting of God's Salvational plan, by offering up his own christ (deliverer from God) and salvation (from God).
Again, sorry for any derailment.
R
hmmmm...no derailment chris.
The Evidence of the Holy Ghost Baptism is Speaking in Tongues
New Languages Ordained by God, Yet Despised by Man ...
...Much disagreement also arises when God's Word is shown to command us to worship Him in the new language, which the Lord puts on the lips of a person as He converts him to the Christian 'walk'. There is, however, no confusion or disagreement in God's Word, and He commands people to do as He says, not what they want to do...
The Evidence of the Holy Ghost Baptism is Speaking in Tongues | Christian Assemblies International
...
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Regeneration
In a recent publication the following statements were made:
1. "In some areas of opinion much confusion has been generated through the teaching that a person cannot be 'bornagain' and experience eternal life, unless that person speaks in other tongues.
It is claimed that to speak in tongues is the only way that a person can know that he is 'bornagain'.
The larger Pentecostal fellowships such as the Apostolic Church, the Assemblies of God, the Christian Revival Crusade and most Full Gospel fellowships believe and teach that the gift of speaking in other tongues is not given to bring about salvation.
Rather, such an experience is a further distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit, as being endued with power from on high."
....The tragedy of this "alternative gospel" (see GALATIANS 1:6-9) is that multitudes have been convinced that they are reconciled to God when in fact they are still dead in sin.
....There is no ambiguity in God's Word about this matter; when a person is bornagain, born from above, regenerated, filled with the Spirit, receives the Spirit, is endued with power, baptised in the Holy Spirit, etc., etc.
HE SPEAKS IN TONGUES - NO EXCEPTIONS:
No tongues - no Holy Spirit.
No tongues - no regeneration (just a spiritual stillbirth).
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Regeneration | Christian Assemblies International
...
this site is clearly saying people who do not speak in tongues are not saved..."No tongues - no Holy Spirit."
i'm wondering if this was the primary and chief doctrine of The Original Pentecostal Movement.
this article posted earlier seems to say yes:
Pentecostalism
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
Demographics
In the United States, there are approximately 12.3 million Pentecostals and Neo-Pentecostals in 24 different denominations or associations. This number does not include the millions of members within mainline denominations, often called “Neo-Pentecostals” or “charismatics,” i.e., who hold to the chief teaching of Pentecostalism: Baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.
Pentecostalism
....
though the site you linked to, chris states:
"The larger Pentecostal fellowships such as the Apostolic Church, the Assemblies of God, the Christian Revival Crusade and most Full Gospel fellowships believe and teach that the gift of speaking in other tongues is notgiven to bring about salvation.
Rather, such an experience is a further distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit, as being endued with power from on high.""
The Holy Spirit | Christian Assemblies International
.....
so i'm still unclear as to what The Original Pentecostal Movement believes(d). or what The Original Pentecostal Movement is/was....and when it began.
The Evidence of the Holy Ghost Baptism is Speaking in Tongues
New Languages Ordained by God, Yet Despised by Man ...
...Much disagreement also arises when God's Word is shown to command us to worship Him in the new language, which the Lord puts on the lips of a person as He converts him to the Christian 'walk'. There is, however, no confusion or disagreement in God's Word, and He commands people to do as He says, not what they want to do...
The Evidence of the Holy Ghost Baptism is Speaking in Tongues | Christian Assemblies International
...
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Regeneration
In a recent publication the following statements were made:
1. "In some areas of opinion much confusion has been generated through the teaching that a person cannot be 'bornagain' and experience eternal life, unless that person speaks in other tongues.
It is claimed that to speak in tongues is the only way that a person can know that he is 'bornagain'.
The larger Pentecostal fellowships such as the Apostolic Church, the Assemblies of God, the Christian Revival Crusade and most Full Gospel fellowships believe and teach that the gift of speaking in other tongues is not given to bring about salvation.
Rather, such an experience is a further distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit, as being endued with power from on high."
....The tragedy of this "alternative gospel" (see GALATIANS 1:6-9) is that multitudes have been convinced that they are reconciled to God when in fact they are still dead in sin.
....There is no ambiguity in God's Word about this matter; when a person is bornagain, born from above, regenerated, filled with the Spirit, receives the Spirit, is endued with power, baptised in the Holy Spirit, etc., etc.
HE SPEAKS IN TONGUES - NO EXCEPTIONS:
No tongues - no Holy Spirit.
No tongues - no regeneration (just a spiritual stillbirth).
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Regeneration | Christian Assemblies International
...
this site is clearly saying people who do not speak in tongues are not saved..."No tongues - no Holy Spirit."
i'm wondering if this was the primary and chief doctrine of The Original Pentecostal Movement.
this article posted earlier seems to say yes:
Pentecostalism
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
Demographics
In the United States, there are approximately 12.3 million Pentecostals and Neo-Pentecostals in 24 different denominations or associations. This number does not include the millions of members within mainline denominations, often called “Neo-Pentecostals” or “charismatics,” i.e., who hold to the chief teaching of Pentecostalism: Baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.
Pentecostalism
....
though the site you linked to, chris states:
"The larger Pentecostal fellowships such as the Apostolic Church, the Assemblies of God, the Christian Revival Crusade and most Full Gospel fellowships believe and teach that the gift of speaking in other tongues is notgiven to bring about salvation.
Rather, such an experience is a further distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit, as being endued with power from on high.""
The Holy Spirit | Christian Assemblies International
.....
so i'm still unclear as to what The Original Pentecostal Movement believes(d). or what The Original Pentecostal Movement is/was....and when it began.
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hi Fester.
i wonder if Kenneth Hagin is accepted by the old-time (?) pentecostals...i.e: The Original Pentecostal Movement?
the site you linked to has a lengthy portion on Hagin.
"KENNETH HAGIN, SR.
KENNETH HAGIN, SR. (1917- ) is one of the most influential Pentecostal leaders today. He claims that his teaching was given to him by God, but in fact he plagiarized heavily from the writings of E.W. KENYON (1867-1948). D.R. McConnell, in his book A Different Gospel, documents this with pages of comparisons proving beyond question that Hagin plagiarized Kenyon's writings. McConnel introduces this section of his book by saying: "Hagin has, indeed, copied word-for-word without documentation from Kenyon's writings. The following excerpts of plagiarisms from no less than eight books by E.W. Kenyon are presented as evidence of this charge. This is only a sampling of such plagiarisms. Many more could be cited." Plagiarism is not only deceit; it is a criminal offense.
Kenyon was a Baptist pastor and never joined the Pentecostal movement (though he did move in Pentecostal circles toward the end of his life), but his pioneer radio broadcasts and voluminous writings had broad influence in the Deeper Life and Pentecostal-Charismatic movements."....
THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM PART 2 OF 3
i don't know...is he considered a fringe guy or heretic? or is he considered orthodox in the community?
opinions seem to vary. was he at one time orthodox but turned, or what? i guess that's part of the confusion....nobody really seems to want to own this guy...or do they? i don't know.
[video=youtube;X2V7KbbfRHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7KbbfRHA[/video]
Kenneth E. Hagin - Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter
i wonder if Kenneth Hagin is accepted by the old-time (?) pentecostals...i.e: The Original Pentecostal Movement?
the site you linked to has a lengthy portion on Hagin.
"KENNETH HAGIN, SR.
KENNETH HAGIN, SR. (1917- ) is one of the most influential Pentecostal leaders today. He claims that his teaching was given to him by God, but in fact he plagiarized heavily from the writings of E.W. KENYON (1867-1948). D.R. McConnell, in his book A Different Gospel, documents this with pages of comparisons proving beyond question that Hagin plagiarized Kenyon's writings. McConnel introduces this section of his book by saying: "Hagin has, indeed, copied word-for-word without documentation from Kenyon's writings. The following excerpts of plagiarisms from no less than eight books by E.W. Kenyon are presented as evidence of this charge. This is only a sampling of such plagiarisms. Many more could be cited." Plagiarism is not only deceit; it is a criminal offense.
Kenyon was a Baptist pastor and never joined the Pentecostal movement (though he did move in Pentecostal circles toward the end of his life), but his pioneer radio broadcasts and voluminous writings had broad influence in the Deeper Life and Pentecostal-Charismatic movements."....
THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM PART 2 OF 3
i don't know...is he considered a fringe guy or heretic? or is he considered orthodox in the community?
opinions seem to vary. was he at one time orthodox but turned, or what? i guess that's part of the confusion....nobody really seems to want to own this guy...or do they? i don't know.
[video=youtube;X2V7KbbfRHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7KbbfRHA[/video]
Kenneth E. Hagin - Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter
C
From my understanding, speaking in tongues (speaking where someone can understand, but yet, do not speak your native language) is a sign for the unbeliever and/or believer. And also, it is one of the gifts from God. But, if no foreign language speaking person is around, then what purpose does it serve? If I am not mistaken, Jesus never said (or gave an example) to pray to God in tongues, seeing that God can understand any language.
This link should give you some insight to that question: History of the Pentecostal Movement | Christian Assemblies International
This is what caused the Pentecostal Movement in the first place:
I strongly agree that speaking in tongues does not bring about salvation. But, it is still one of the active gifts of the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel.
Perhaps their history page can help. I am also learning as we talk (keep that in mind as we talk).
This link should give you some insight to that question: History of the Pentecostal Movement | Christian Assemblies International
This is what caused the Pentecostal Movement in the first place:
The Pentecostal Movement grew out of the Holiness Revival of the second half of the nineteenth century. This revival was an expression of both social and theological discontent among the nation's lower and middle-class groups. Holiness followers disapproved of the godlessness in mainline denominations, as well as the growing wealth and lack of simplicity of their churches. Not content to remain in mainline churches, they formed new religious communities committed to seeking perfection in Christ. These former Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists were experiencing a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit much like the early church experienced in the book of Acts. The Holiness Revival produced a hunger for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (a divine empowerment of believers) and for other spiritual gifts promised to the New Testament church such as healing and prophecy.
I strongly agree that speaking in tongues does not bring about salvation. But, it is still one of the active gifts of the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel.
Perhaps their history page can help. I am also learning as we talk (keep that in mind as we talk).
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okay. so people receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost = salvation....and they may or may not speak in a (known?) foreign language?
you don't believe the mysterious tongue-speaking that no one understands is the gift of tongues?
...
i guess i'm still wondering what The Original Pentecostal Movement believes....the gift of tongues is a real (known?) foreign language - or a mysterious unknown noises "new language" as the first site you linked to asserts.?
hard to know...so many different internal disagreements - in a community that supposedly has all these spiritual gifts. i don't get it. but, the purpose of this thread is to hopefully narrow down WHEN The Original Pentecostal Movement began, and what the defining doctrines are.
hopefully, at that point of reference it might be possible to see where any of it went off the rails and if anything of The Original Pentecostal Movement remains...or if it's all just The Original Pentecostal Movement with variations.
okay thanks.
that's similar to this account:
"Actually, the origins of Pentecostalism go back much farther. The first Pentecostals were members of the Nineteenth Century Holiness Movement, which began to reassert John Wesley’s teaching of Christian perfection, sometimes known as entire sanctification. Wesley’s teaching of entire sanctification had in turn had been influenced by German pietism (the Moravians). Each of these movements taught that the Christian was to seek and experience a second work of grace (the first work of grace being justification), namely, Christian perfection and entire sanctification.
The Holiness Movement was associated with the revivals of evangelist Charles Finney (1792-1875) in the 1820s and 1830s. More than anyone else, Finney was responsible for popularizing the teaching of entire sanctification, which he said was an instantaneous act following conversion, which granted perfect liberation from all sin, including sinful thoughts. He also claimed that this entire sanctification is the normal experience of Christians.
After the Civil War, when a spirit of worldliness had entered the churches, Methodist churches began holding revivals stressing the need for the experience of entire sanctification. This in turn started a national Holiness Movement, which caused schism within the Methodist Church. Its proponents became known as “holy rollers.”
The family tree of Pentecostalism is, therefore, as follows: Pietism -- the Moravians -- Wesley -- Finney -- Holiness Movement -- Pentecostalism.The Holiness Movement continues today, the largest body being the Church of the Nazarene. Generally speaking, they reject various forms of popular entertainment, such as dancing, movies, popular music, smoking, drinking, gambling, and even make-up and ornate clothing.The key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does. Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living. Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
this site mentions the influence of the pietists or moravians (c.1457?), but i've seen nothing about any gifts of the Spirit or five-fold ministry or speaking in tongues or prophecy ar anything like that in their history. so i assume it was the equating of holiness with they rejection of "various forms of popular entertainment, such as dancing, movies, popular music, smoking, drinking, gambling, and even make-up and ornate clothing".
so apparently it's not reasonable to date The Original Pentecostal Movement back to the reformation, since:
"The key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does.
Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living.
Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
course, being a cessationist, and also a confessional lutheran - personally i don't think either of those beliefs (above) are accurate....i don't think they are supported by scripture. and i certainly don't see any perfected christians....as well as not believing in unknown tongues and whatnot....i don't know where anyone got the idea it was unknown noises.
which is why i guess i'm a cessationist and lutheran.
you don't believe the mysterious tongue-speaking that no one understands is the gift of tongues?
...
i guess i'm still wondering what The Original Pentecostal Movement believes....the gift of tongues is a real (known?) foreign language - or a mysterious unknown noises "new language" as the first site you linked to asserts.?
hard to know...so many different internal disagreements - in a community that supposedly has all these spiritual gifts. i don't get it. but, the purpose of this thread is to hopefully narrow down WHEN The Original Pentecostal Movement began, and what the defining doctrines are.
hopefully, at that point of reference it might be possible to see where any of it went off the rails and if anything of The Original Pentecostal Movement remains...or if it's all just The Original Pentecostal Movement with variations.
okay thanks.
that's similar to this account:
"Actually, the origins of Pentecostalism go back much farther. The first Pentecostals were members of the Nineteenth Century Holiness Movement, which began to reassert John Wesley’s teaching of Christian perfection, sometimes known as entire sanctification. Wesley’s teaching of entire sanctification had in turn had been influenced by German pietism (the Moravians). Each of these movements taught that the Christian was to seek and experience a second work of grace (the first work of grace being justification), namely, Christian perfection and entire sanctification.
The Holiness Movement was associated with the revivals of evangelist Charles Finney (1792-1875) in the 1820s and 1830s. More than anyone else, Finney was responsible for popularizing the teaching of entire sanctification, which he said was an instantaneous act following conversion, which granted perfect liberation from all sin, including sinful thoughts. He also claimed that this entire sanctification is the normal experience of Christians.
After the Civil War, when a spirit of worldliness had entered the churches, Methodist churches began holding revivals stressing the need for the experience of entire sanctification. This in turn started a national Holiness Movement, which caused schism within the Methodist Church. Its proponents became known as “holy rollers.”
The family tree of Pentecostalism is, therefore, as follows: Pietism -- the Moravians -- Wesley -- Finney -- Holiness Movement -- Pentecostalism.The Holiness Movement continues today, the largest body being the Church of the Nazarene. Generally speaking, they reject various forms of popular entertainment, such as dancing, movies, popular music, smoking, drinking, gambling, and even make-up and ornate clothing.The key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does. Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living. Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
this site mentions the influence of the pietists or moravians (c.1457?), but i've seen nothing about any gifts of the Spirit or five-fold ministry or speaking in tongues or prophecy ar anything like that in their history. so i assume it was the equating of holiness with they rejection of "various forms of popular entertainment, such as dancing, movies, popular music, smoking, drinking, gambling, and even make-up and ornate clothing".
so apparently it's not reasonable to date The Original Pentecostal Movement back to the reformation, since:
"The key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does.
Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living.
Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
course, being a cessationist, and also a confessional lutheran - personally i don't think either of those beliefs (above) are accurate....i don't think they are supported by scripture. and i certainly don't see any perfected christians....as well as not believing in unknown tongues and whatnot....i don't know where anyone got the idea it was unknown noises.
which is why i guess i'm a cessationist and lutheran.
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so, for now, i guess this is a reasonable beginning "date", or time for The Original Pentecostal Movement :
"The first Pentecostals were members of the Nineteenth Century Holiness Movement, which began to reassert John Wesley’s teaching of Christian perfection, sometimes known as entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
k.....i guess i'll just wait and see if Penetecostals agree on that as the origin of the movement.
take it from there i reckon.
"The first Pentecostals were members of the Nineteenth Century Holiness Movement, which began to reassert John Wesley’s teaching of Christian perfection, sometimes known as entire sanctification."
Pentecostalism
k.....i guess i'll just wait and see if Penetecostals agree on that as the origin of the movement.
take it from there i reckon.
L
Yes zone, it seems like the Pentecostal Movement had it's roots in the Holiness Movement, but the name didn't stick until the revivals in the early 1900s.
The more I look into it, the less cohesive the group seemed to be. The amount of splits and disputes is astounding. Other than simply renaming the Holiness Movement, the only other distinguishing characteristic in the early years seems to be the speaking in tongues. Healings were a common event in certain circles, but not as a whole group. There was even much disagreement on the significance of speaking in tongues.
The more I look into it, the less cohesive the group seemed to be. The amount of splits and disputes is astounding. Other than simply renaming the Holiness Movement, the only other distinguishing characteristic in the early years seems to be the speaking in tongues. Healings were a common event in certain circles, but not as a whole group. There was even much disagreement on the significance of speaking in tongues.